Exploring Orthodoxy

[crazylikeafox]

I had an unusual thought come across my mind today. One that hardly ever pops up in my mind. It was a “what if” question. You know the ones — they cause you worry for practically no reason because they will probably never happen, right? Well, maybe not this one.

You see, the question that popped up was, “What if I’m wrong?”

Wrong about what? My religion. Not to say Christianity as a whole, but my particular brand of Christianity. What if it was wrong? You see, my whole life I’ve thought that, if one is to be a Christian, nondenominationalism is the way to go. None of that restrictive hierarchy or pesky confession. No catechism, no confirmation. A lone-wolf Christian! It seemed so intelligent, requiring you to dig into the Bible yourself, with no singular preist or pope to guide you. Just my Bible and me, all alone in this hostile world. Sola Scriptura! It seemed so intelligent, so philosophical, so progressive.

At least, it did 24 hours ago.

Now, something is happening. The question keeps coming back.

I started reading about Catholicism because my husband is Catholic. I wanted to understand his belief and have never considered Catholicism to be heretical. I could even see myself attending a Catholic Church someday. I stumbled upon the idea of Holy or Sacred Tradition.

And then everything went twirly-whirly. Could there be a gap that the Protestants are missing? The idea that Sola Scriptura could be less than enough is literally knocking on my door, and I’m not sure I want to open it. Because, what if? What if it is? That means I would pick up all that stuff that I’ve always rejected. And I’m not sure I want to. Not because I don’t think its true, but because it looks hard. :\ Conversion, catechism, confession.

I’m not simply talking about Catholicism, but Eastern Orthodoxy too. In fact, Eastern Orthodoxy seems to explain a lot. I do want to try attending an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'm nervous. It seems so different, I know I would stick out like a sore thumb. Besides, I have a six-month-old baby.

So I guess some questions I have are these:

1.) Would it be innappropriate to bring a baby with me, or will it be uncomfortable? Should I find a babysitter for my first couple visits?

2.) What does a conversion to Eastern Orthodox entail?

3.) My father is a pastor with a masters in apologetics. Telling him that I'm questioning "sola scriptura" or considering a non-protestant way of belief is a big deal. What is the best and most sensitive way I can begin a dialogue with him about these things without sparking a debate?

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Coralie]

I hear you sister. I had the same things pop into my head. I guess it's obvious how that turned out!

1.) Would it be innappropriate to bring a baby with me, or will it be uncomfortable? Should I find a babysitter for my first couple visits?

Babies and small children are always welcome in EO churches. It's considered Very Important to take your baby up for Communion each week too, though -- so understand that the grannies and moms in the congregation will mostly likely urge you to take your little one up, but of course, they will assume he/she has been baptised and chrismated EO.

So I guess the answer is -- your little one is welcome, but it may be less intrusive for you -- less explaining to do -- to leave him/her with a sitter. If you do get a sitter, be sure to make the most of your visit by talking to the priest too. He will be able to help out -- perhaps pairing you with someone in the parish who will sit next to you in future, explain the Liturgy, and rebuff questions from others who are trying to helpfully remind you to take your baby for Communion Something like that. Ask the priest for help, don't be shy.

And if you do bring your baby, don't feel embarrassed to say "we aren't Orthodox". Nobody will be disgusted with you, they will be very grateful that you take their rites of baptism and chrismation so seriously, that you don't feel "entitled" to Communion (as is so often the case with Western Christians).

Crying babies aren't seen as problematic in EO churches generally, since it's considered so important to commune babies. Priests often comment on crying babies during the homily as "they're practicing for the choir!" and suchlike. It's lighthearted. If you're uncomfortable, feel free to step outside. In some churches, grannies and older moms will offer to take your baby outside for you, so you can continue worshipping in peace.

2.) What does a conversion to Eastern Orthodox entail?

Well. Depends on the person and what they need. Generally, there's a period of catechism (sometimes classes, sometimes meeting with the priest individually on a regular schedule, sometimes just coming to Church and asking questions whenever you need to). The length of the catechism depends on who you are, what your questions are, what you struggle with, what you don't want to leave behind, etc. etc. etc. Generally it seems to last 6 - 24 months. Though mine was three months, so there's room for variation.

Then, when you and your priest feel ready, it's baptism and chrismation time -- sometimes chrismation only, if you were baptised before in a different tradition.

3.) My father is a pastor with a masters in apologetics. Telling him that I'm questioning "sola scriptura" or considering a non-protestant way of belief is a big deal. What is the best and most sensitive way I can begin a dialogue with him about these things without sparking a debate?

Don't begin a dialogue yet. You don't understand fully Orthodoxy until you become Orthodox, and even then it's still a journey. If you feel it's important to be open about it once/if you become a catechumen (don't talk about it earlier than that), then tell your Dad you're doing it and don't talk any more about it. Don't be drawn into debates.

Dad: "But why are you becoming a Mary-worshipping pagan, Fox??"
Fox: [humbly] "I know you're worried Dad. Please pray for me to be set on the right path."
Dad: "But this is ALL WRONG!! The follow the traditions of men!"
Fox: "Please pray the Lord will have mercy on me."
Dad: "YOU'RE CRAZY!! Why are you relying on works instead of faith??!"
Fox: "I'm sorry I'm upsetting you Dad. God will work it all out in the end. Please pray for me."
...etc.

People are only ready to listen when their hearts are open and there's no defensiveness. This can take many, many years and a lot of prayer. Cultivate humility and let God be in charge of your journey... other people don't have to agree with you in order for it to be the right thing to do. Your job is to love your Dad, not educate him or change his mind.

Also, talk to your priest about your Dad. He will have good advice for you.

God bless you honey. xxx

 

[Kristos]

We love babies! Bring 'em for sure!!!

Maybe we are more scriptural than he or you realize. Most EO read scripture often, many read it daily. Our services are filled with scriptural references and readings. It's really pretty amazing when you dig into it

 

[ProScribe]

That's my favorite thing to do. Exploring religions.

 

[crazylikeafox]

Thank you all for your advice. Good to know babies are welcome. I've been listening to a series of podcasts from AncientFaith.com -- "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy", which has been really helpful in pointing out the what Orthodox actually believes.

I always have thought that Protestant belief kind of sold the Church short of her full role. Though I believe the hardest part of conversion for me would be leaving my current congregation where I feel so at home. I'm sure God will provide the support I need, if I am truly to convert.

 

[MamaBug]

Hi Fox,

Wow - your story sounded so familiar...

I was first introduced to Orthodoxy when looking for arguments for and against Papal infallibility. The first article I came across was titled 'an argument for Papal infallibility against the Eastern Orthodox'. We are incultured in America to think there are only two options, it is a bit dizzying to realize there is a third.

Babies are welcome. If they are 6 months they may even love it - my son considered it quality cuddle time for the first year. Many Orthodox parishes don't have pews so if the babies get restless we put them down on the floor to crawl, toddle, or sleep. Whether you want to take him/her the first visit depends on their temperment.

It looks like there are at least 3 churches in the fort wayne area. My suggestion would be to visit all of them until you find the one that you connect with. I don't normally recommend parish shopping, but with Orthodox Churches in the Mid West and East sometimes you have to look around until you find the one that is either all English or enough English that you can relate. Still a sad but true fact of our transitioning from immigrant-to-native faith.

Personally, I wouldn't have any conversations with relatives other than your spouse until you have a better sense of where you want to go - Catholic, Orthodox, or remaining Protestant.

 

[Lirenel]

And then everything went twirly-whirly. Could there be a gap that the Protestants are missing? The idea that Sola Scriptura could be less than enough is literally knocking on my door, and I’m not sure I want to open it. Because, what if? What if it is? That means I would pick up all that stuff that I’ve always rejected. And I’m not sure I want to. Not because I don’t think its true, but because it looks hard. :\ Conversion, catechism, confession.

I know this is an older thread, but this really stuck out to me. Because this is exactly what happened to me. Different situation, obviously, but I got to the point where I realized Sola Scriptura wasn't enough and it terrified me because then I knew I couldn't be Protestant anymore.

But I made the leap and now I'm at the cathechism stage. That leap was hard, but worth it!

 

[rdhosken]

No, you're not crazy!

While serving as an evangelical missionary in Russia, I began finding out more about Orthodoxy. I was shocked to see an in-the-floor baptistry in a little Orthodox church in central Russia -- up to that point I thought Orthodoxy was pretty much the same as Roman Catholicism, but without a pope.

Well, long story short, about 12 years later my wife and I decided to make the switch. A priest in Moscow said we could go through classes at his church and be chrismated in just a few weeks, but our O. priest friend at the Antiochian church we had been visiting in our home town, Madison WI, suggested we take our time. So we became catechumens in Jan. 2008 and were chrismated in Dec. that year: it will be 2 years this month!

It's been a life-changing experience, discovering a whole new depth to our Christian faith, after being involved in evangelical missions for 40 years. You can read more about it in the "Our Homecoming" article at Discover-Original-Christianity.info (there's lots of other good stuff there too).

 

[ArmyMatt]

1.) Would it be innappropriate to bring a baby with me, or will it be uncomfortable? Should I find a babysitter for my first couple visits?

not at all.

2.) What does a conversion to Eastern Orthodox entail?

well, usually there is a period of preparation involved, so that you come to udnerstand our beliefs and positions. when your priest knows you are ready, you will be recieved into the Church. it's all in God's time, but these normally take at least a few months to do. the best teacher is the Divine Services.

3.) My father is a pastor with a masters in apologetics. Telling him that I'm questioning "sola scriptura" or considering a non-protestant way of belief is a big deal. What is the best and most sensitive way I can begin a dialogue with him about these things without sparking a debate?

I dunno about this one, but I would bring up stuff that Orthodoxy and Evangelicals agree with, and then slowly start raising questions.

And then everything went twirly-whirly. Could there be a gap that the Protestants are missing? The idea that Sola Scriptura could be less than enough is literally knocking on my door, and I’m not sure I want to open it. Because, what if? What if it is? That means I would pick up all that stuff that I’ve always rejected. And I’m not sure I want to. Not because I don’t think its true, but because it looks hard. :\ Conversion, catechism, confession.

I’m not simply talking about Catholicism, but Eastern Orthodoxy too. In fact, Eastern Orthodoxy seems to explain a lot. I do want to try attending an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'm nervous. It seems so different, I know I would stick out like a sore thumb. Besides, I have a six-month-old baby.

I remember having those very same thoughts when I started looking into the Church. but all I can tell you is that it has all been worth it. prayers for you on your journey and welcome to TAW!

 

[crazylikeafox]

I recently attended my first liturgy! I talk about it on my blog, but here is the entry for my first liturgy:

"I finally did it. Today I attended my first Orthodox liturgy, together with my anthropologist friend and Mia Joy. We attended St. Nicholas Orthodox Church in Fort Wayne. The first impression was made by an "You are about to enter a holy sanctuary of the Most High God...please turn off all cell phones, electronic devices, etc. etc." or something to that effect. It made me crinkle my nose & think "that's not very seeker-sensitive". Then my immediate second reaction was to make fun of it. I held off, of course, because I wouldn't want to be rude, but it made me realize something: I've forgotten how to be reverent, if I ever knew how.

Mia remained fairly calm and well-behaved throughout, though I did have to take her out once. I didn't know which doors to use (the side-doors? the center doors?) and was gone while they took communion, which I actually really wanted to see, but would've probably felt kind of awkward too, not being able to take it myself. However, when they brought out the Eucharist, it was inspiring to see the honor they placed upon it -- they stood facing it, turning towards it as it was carried throughout the sanctuary. Very different from my church, who places the bread & grape juice on a cart and allows a "come as you will" attitude.

They did have a bread that everybody could partake of at the end, but you had to kiss a crucifix before you took it. I almost abandoned ship at the point I realized you had to do that, but it was too late. So I puckered up and gave it what I thought to be a too-slobbery-to-be-reverent kiss, hurriedly took the bread, and practically ran away from Fr. Andrew in his scary vestments. =)

Afterwards, they had a coffee hours, which was a great opportunity for us to meet face-to-face with Fr. Andrew and Deacon Michael, who were actually very friendly and not scary at all. Deacon Michael and Stephanie (my anthropologist friend) had a good discussion and we learned quite a bit about the Orthodox church. I am so glad I went. I'm going to let the experience marinate for awhile, pray on it, and maybe explore some of the other churches in our area.

One more note: the sanctuary was absolutely beautiful. A sense of holiness, but not dour at all. The blues and golds were stunning, and the a capella songs and music were enchanting."

 

[Etsi]

Wonderful!

 

[musicluvr83]

Glory to God!

 

[choirfiend]

That was great you had a good visit, and I'm glad you venerated the cross--giving God a kiss is never a bad thing. However, if you feel uncomfortable, you dont have to receive the priests blessing and kiss the cross. The priest knows you're visiting, so just saying, "thank you, Fr," or "good morning, Fr." and letting him greet you would be fine.

During teh Great Entrance, the bread and wine is brought in procession to the altar table. It is not yet the Eucharist, but there's no exact moment when it changes, exactly, but people show reverence to the gifts anyway.

 

[choirfiend]

PS though I havent changed my avatar, it looks like you and I both had daughters within a few weeks of each other... If you have questions, please ask!