Explaining the fall of man through evolution

[shernren]

Sorry I can't quote you Delta One, the copy/paste on the library computer is out. And I'm not joking.

TalkOrigins distorts facts? As reported by who - AiG? the fact is TA answers AiG much better than AiG answers TA. Endof.

And I'm not sure what your point actually is, come to think of it. Except that some people argue that God could not have used evolution since evolution requires the survival of the fittest which is a horrible thing which therefore cannot be part of God's plan. I was trying to answer that. I've probably missed your point completely and I apologise.

tyreth: if you are saying that murder is sin even if God did not declare it, therefore there is an absolute moral standard outside of God and therefore a moral standard to which God is subject and therefore under the "power" of. Wow!

Murder is sin because murder is against God's character and as humans who are created in God's image, to go against God's character and our character as created beings is against the purpose for which we are created. I simplify; this is the relevant part of my understanding of sin.

To be honest, I don't really understand your arguments. A pre-conscious ancestor of mine killed another pre-hominid - so? God allows worse things than that to happen in the modern world, even though He in no way whatsoever would condone it.

God holds us guilty for our "behavior" that is "shaped by our evolutionary ancestry" for two reasons I can see:
1. God gave the first humans free choice (which is not incompatible with TE). Free choice brings the possibility of sin into the world, and the first humans somehow chose to bring the reality of sin into the world.
2. God made the first humans in His image, which both implies that pre-humans were not in His image and therefore were not / are not morally liable; and that humans who are created in His image therefore have the obligation of living according to His pattern since His creation must fulfill the purpose for which they are created.

 

[Vance]

But Tyreth, should God had blamed us anyway? Think about it. Regardless of what you think happened in the past prior to the Fall, the fact is that Adam and Eve DID choose to sin. That was obviously something they were capable of, something that was built into them as a possibility, or they would not (COULD not) have done it. Now, where did this capacity for sin come from? God knew that capacity was there, and knew that Adam and Eve would give in to it. Did God create that capacity into Adam and Eve? Well, with a special creation approach, you would have to say yes, since God had JUST created them and everything about them was the direct and immediate result of His handiwork.

So, no matter HOW God created Adam and Eve, He did so in a way that Mankind had capacity and ability to sin. God expected Mankind, regardless of this innate drive to sinfulness (whether via ages of developing nature, or instillation of this drive by God), to overcome it and follow God's commandments. So, this issue does not create an argument against Man having developed via evolution. In fact, I find it more troubling that God would purposefully implant such a capacity for sin and then immediately put it to the test in a way that He KNEW Mankind would fail. On this issue, God's ways are not our ways, and that is one of the mysteries we will have to ask about when we get there. My thought is that God gave us the capacity to sin and even the drive to sin so that our choice of obedience would be meaningful.

As for an evolutionary explaination for our "humanity", you are forgetting the THEISTIC element of Theistic Evolution. TE's believe that God chose Mankind as His special creative work and did WHATEVER He did to Mankind to make us different, in fact "in His image". Yes, atheistic evolutionists get this wrong, but that just means their atheism is wrong, not the rest of their scientific explanations.

As to your last point, again, an animal killing another animal is not murder. It is not a sin. It is not evil. We look at the lion killing a rival and we feel no moral outrage or condemnation. We see no evil there. Before God made us Mankind, the previous ancestors of our race were animals in the same way. God raised us up, enlightened us, and made us aware for the first time, the nature of God, the nature of sin and righteousness, and I believe gave us the Spirit to guide us toward avoiding evil actions if we would but listen to it.

Whatever happened, whether the Garden experience literally, or something broader and more general which is described via the Garden story, Mankind was given both the capacity to sin and the drive to sin, and at the same time, the injunction NOT to sin and the grace to be able to avoid sin if they chose.

 

[gluadys]

Hi gluadys,

Natural selection does not require murder or wiping out the weaker.

Natural selection is also known as "survival of the fittest". Survival of the fittest implies death of the weak, or those animals that don't have the characteristics to survive in a certain environment.

Delta One.

"Survival of the fittest" is not a good description of natural selection. But even so, survival of the fittest does not require "murder of" or "wiping out" the weaker. All it requires is differential reproductive success.

In fact, the "weaker" often do have the requirements to survive in a certain environment. But some in the population acquire the capacity to survive better. The original form is no "weaker" than it ever was. Individuals of the weaker form continue to live as well as they ever did. But as the new group has more surviving offspring than the original type, it gradually becomes more and more common.

 

[gluadys]

Good evening shernren,

What about talkorigins.faq?

I find that Talk Origins has a bad history of intentionally distorting the facts to pursuade people to believe their point of view. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Talk Origins is an evolutionary site; True Origins is the creationary site.

Could you provide a few examples of this? Just 2 or 3 would be sufficient.

I would argue that the one thing that gives men (or human beings) wisdom is the fact that all humans are made in the Image of God, we are not some naked ape (but this is another discussion).

False dichotomy. We are both.