Explain Trinity

[jessedance]

would someone be so kind as to explain to me the trinity using only biblical terminology? Oh gee, trinity isn't a biblical word. This is going to be hard.

 

[joyinchrist]

Good question! I'm interested in hearing this too

 

[Der Alte]

would someone be so kind as to explain to me the trinity using only biblical terminology? Oh gee, trinity isn't a biblical word. This is going to be hard.

Oh, gee Jesse this is just so difficult. We have have never heard this before. You are so clever. Not!

Here is a verse which says in 22 words what the word Trinity says in one word. And OBTW the word "Bible" is not biblical terminology and neither are many other words, which we use in the discussion of Theology, oops, another nonbiblical terminology.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.​

Or this verse, three having equal authority.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:​

 

[Serapha]

Hi there!


1Jo 5:7

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



While you will cite that this verse in it's entirity is not in the original manuscripts, I would tell you that Jerome writes of it's omission from the texts as he identifies it should be present.



"of Jerom, has it, and who, in an epistle of his to Eustochium, prefixed to his translation of these canonical epistles, complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters"

I would feel that a complaint that unfaithful interpreters were omitting the scriptures would identify that the earliest manuscripts did, indeed have the text as it is written in the current translations, and that would be why it was added back in

~malaka~

 

[Talyn]

Trinity = Schizophrenic being
Or so I was told

 

[Der Alte]

Trinity = Schizophrenic being
Or so I was told

Yeah, I've heard of that bunch. "I was told," "I have heard," "They say" and good ol' "Everybody knows" Instead of real scholarship and evidence one of these guys gets quoted all the time.

If you have any real evidence or research, instead of gossip, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.

Malaka,
Also Theophilus referred to 1 John 5:7 about 180 AD and Tertullian quoted it about 200 AD.

 

[jessedance]

Der Alter;
I see your up to your usual format
First, insult the person your responding to, you said,"Oh, gee Jesse this is just so difficult. We have have never heard this before. You are so clever. Not! " Not a christ like thing to insult people. Der alter do you always have to start a letter to someone with an insult? is it manditory?
As a side I have found that excessive erudition often leads to pride.
both of the scriptures you quoted are interpolations of scripture. 1 john 5:7 as you quoted it is only in the textus receptus. manuscriptsB, Aleph, A, 33 omit "these three are one" I believe that the kjv is the only bible (the WORD) that has 1 john5:7.
Math.28:19 is clearly trinitarian interpolation of the scritpure, As I showed to you, Eusebius (he was at the council of nicea) quoted math. 28:19 some 17 times or so without the triatic formula. Eusebius had access to bible (holy scripture) that has been burned up or destroyed. There are no manuscripts containing Math. 28:19 prior to 325 AD . http://www.focus-search.com/shc/matt2819.html Other pastric authors such as origen, clement, and Justin Maryter quote Math.28:19 without the triatic formula.
Don't you have any scriptures to prove trinity that arent interpolations of scripture? Does it not seem strange to you that all the big gun sciputres used to support trinity are controversial? Except perhaps Gen 1:26 which i have already shown what I believe to be the correct interpretation of that scripture. Gen. 1:26 says nothing about any trinity.
As to the fact that Bible is not in the bible, well I suppose we all would be better off saying "the word" or "the holy scriptures" And I am not opposed to that. I think your point is correct, we shouldnt call gods word the bible. cause bible isnt a word in the bible.God didnt say Bible. So why do we call his word ":bible"? cause it softens the empact that one gets by saying "the word" or "gods word" . I have a Martin Luther translation of the bible and it doesnt have "bible" on the cover. it has "Der Heilige Schrift" (the holy scriptures) I think , as a general rule, the more we stick with what THE WORD says the better off we all will be.
Do you think you could try and respond to this letter without starting your response off with an insult directed at me? Give it a try for once

 

[Peterson]

When those who express belief in a trinity, can come to some agreement among themselves about a consistent definition, then after you are through quibling among yourselves, present a little Biblical evidence to support what you have come to agree on.

In the meantime, I'll stay with the the Bible definition, and it is: One God and Father of all, and his son Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God the Father and mankind.

 

[jessedance]

So far no one has explained the trinity using only biblical words.

 

[TOmNossor]

Yeah, I've heard of that bunch. "I was told," "I have heard," "They say" and good ol' "Everybody knows" Instead of real scholarship and evidence one of these guys gets quoted all the time.

If you have any real evidence or research, instead of gossip, I'd be glad to discuss it with you.

Malaka,
Also Theophilus referred to 1 John 5:7 about 180 AD and Tertullian quoted it about 200 AD.

I do not reject the term Trinity as we have discussed, but I must quibble with those who use the Theophilus. First, the word Theophilus used was “Trius” (or that is how it appears in the writings I have looked into). But far more important than this is that Theophilus identified himself in his writings as not accepting the divinity of Christ and is thus an Arian.



Modern revelation and/or the teachings of the Catholic Church decide this issue for me or Catholics, but the Bible or some appeal to the ante-Nicene Fathers will not solve this issue for those who reject a teaching authority.



Charity, TOm

 

[Miles Peterson]

would someone be so kind as to explain to me the trinity using only biblical terminology? Oh gee, trinity isn't a biblical word. This is going to be hard.

What exactly do you consider "biblical terminology"? Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew? Maybe a little Reformed Egyptian also thrown in, to appease the Mormons?

 

[xsimmsx]

Jesus that is the only word needed to describe my God.




Anti-Trinity
Pro-Simplicity

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Name, One God, One Father, One Spirit, One Body, One Church

Jesus Christ the Only True God.

 

[fatboys]

Jesus that is the only word needed to describe my God.




Anti-Trinity
Pro-Simplicity

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Name, One God, One Father, One Spirit, One Body, One Church

Jesus Christ the Only True God.

Which church would that be?

 

[jessedance]

Miles;

Biblical terminology would be words that are in the bible. The bible was written in greek, hebrew , and chaldeean. We have translations of the words god used because we do not speak those languages. I'm not sure what you mean, but I do not mean by biblical terminology that we use words in the bible from the original language. If one's doctrine is based on a whole host of non-biblical terminology such as the trinity is, it should raise a lot of red flags in your mind, in my opinion. If one cannot explain ones biblical doctrine without resorting to using massive amounts of terminology that is not in the bible, such as , trinity, triune, 3rd person, 2nd person, 1st person, co-eternal, co-equal, pre-existant christ, God the son, God the holy ghost, true god from true god, eternaly begotten (what on earth does that mean?) and many more , then one should reject it. in my opinion. And i do.

 

[jessedance]

Tom;

The problem is that trinitarian interpolations began to enter into the bible at an early date. So one can find support for 1 john 5:7 either way probably. Even math. 28:19 with the triatic fromula was probably extant in some places at the time of Eusebiusis writings, However, Eusebius did not have any manuscripts available to him with the triatic formula till he went to the council of nicea. And he had access to a great library that has since been long gone. He had access to bibles that predate anything we have to date. And he didnt quote math. 28:19 with the triatic formula, until after the council of nicea. There is much evedince against the triatic formula on patristic writings, internal evidence, and the fact that the sentence in math. 28:19 makes no logical sense. it doesnt make sense for jesus to say,"all power is given unto me" and then say, "go therefore and baptise in the name of the father, son , holy ghost," it makes much more sense the way eusebius quoted it. "all power is given unto me", " go therefore and teach all nations in my name". Get my drift?

 

[fatboys]

Tom;

The problem is that trinitarian interpolations began to enter into the bible at an early date. So one can find support for 1 john 5:7 either way probably. Even math. 28:19 with the triatic fromula was probably extant in some places at the time of Eusebiusis writings, However, Eusebius did not have any manuscripts available to him with the triatic formula till he went to the council of nicea. And he had access to a great library that has since been long gone. He had access to bibles that predate anything we have to date. And he didnt quote math. 28:19 with the triatic formula, until after the council of nicea. There is much evedince against the triatic formula on patristic writings, internal evidence, and the fact that the sentence in math. 28:19 makes no logical sense. it doesnt make sense for jesus to say,"all power is given unto me" and then say, "go therefore and baptise in the name of the father, son , holy ghost," it makes much more sense the way eusebius quoted it. "all power is given unto me", " go therefore and teach all nations in my name". Get my drift?

FB: Well I am struggling here. Are you saying that Christ had power unto himself? That which was seperate from the Father? The reason I ask is the many statements that seperate him from the Father.

Matthew 7:21
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 5:30
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:36
36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:57
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 8:29
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 8:42
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 12:49
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 17:21
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 17:23
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

John 17:24
24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

John 20:21
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

Hebrews 1:4
4 ¶ Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

FB: This verse signfies that the Son was "MADE" better than the angels and obtained an more excellent name. Meaning it was not always so

Hebrews 1:5
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

FB: These are just a few of the scriptures which seperate the Father and the Son, and gives the Son a subordinate role of mediator to the father

 

[Serapha]

So far no one has explained the trinity using only biblical words.

Hi there!



Well, I took the "bait" ... for this was a baited question...


and I didn't insult you... which is what it appears you wanted hear...

So, I am back with a question....


Please give me a listing of "biblical words" so I may meet your qualifiers before replying again.



~malaka~

 

[jessedance]

Fb, and Malaka: fb You said, "Well I am struggling here. Are you saying that Christ had power unto himself? " No Jesus said God gave him all his power.Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. " and John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. " and
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. " Jesus couldn't heal a pimple, the father (God the father, the only God there is, Corinthians I 8:6" But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things.....") who was in Jesus did all the miracles.
malaka, give you a list of biblical words? I don't follow you. My point is that you can't explain trinity without using lots of non-biblical words. I can't explain trinity without resorting to phraseology outside the bible. And no I do not want to hear insults, I try and avoid insulting people , certainly I don't insult anyone on a regular basis and not intentionaly ever., and i would say not overtly if i do.
incidently, I use to know a greek person from greece and he taught me some dirty greek words, before I became a christian, malaka is a dirty word in modern greek, I dont know if its spelled as you spell it but it is pronounced that way.

 

[Serapha]

would someone be so kind as to explain to me the trinity using only biblical terminology? Oh gee, trinity isn't a biblical word. This is going to be hard.

Hi there!



Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. (Check the Alexandrian text on this passage)



~malaka~

 

[fatboys]

Fb, and Malaka: fb You said, "Well I am struggling here. Are you saying that Christ had power unto himself? " No Jesus said God gave him all his power.Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. " and John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. " and
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. " Jesus couldn't heal a pimple, the father (God the father, the only God there is, Corinthians I 8:6" But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things.....") who was in Jesus did all the miracles.
malaka, give you a list of biblical words? I don't follow you. My point is that you can't explain trinity without using lots of non-biblical words. I can't explain trinity without resorting to phraseology outside the bible. And no I do not want to hear insults, I try and avoid insulting people , certainly I don't insult anyone on a regular basis and not intentionaly ever., and i would say not overtly if i do.
incidently, I use to know a greek person from greece and he taught me some dirty greek words, before I became a christian, malaka is a dirty word in modern greek, I dont know if its spelled as you spell it but it is pronounced that way.

FB: So were are in agreement that the power of the Son comes through the power of the Father. And that as being part of the Godhead, the Son is as God, and does God's works because that is his role and assignment from the Father. The creation, commandments etc. are given to us from the Son directed by the Father?