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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by MasterYourLife, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. The authors didn't correctly record what Jesus said (they are human after all)

  2. Jesus was a false prophet

  3. Jesus didn't know and therefore gave his "best guess"

  4. Poor translation from Greek to English

  5. The texts were manipulated later on

  6. I don't know

  7. Other

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. MasterYourLife

    MasterYourLife New Member

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    The way Jesus spoke makes me believe he predicted his second coming to be within 100 years after his death.
    Before you answer, carefully read through all the points I made.

    1)
    "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    Very plainly Jesus said he will return within at least 50-100 years (assuming his disciples wouldn't live past 100).

    Before you answer keep in mind in verse 27, Jesus explains the events that will happen when he returns. He will come with his angels and to commence judgement. If your answer doesn't include these, then it's most likely wrong. There are many verses where Jesus explains what his second coming will entail...which of course haven't happened. Ex: "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
    A lot of answers I've heard are: "this happened in the transfiguration"...there were no angels and was no judgement.

    2)
    "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

    To bring this verse into context: Jesus' disciples asked him 2 questions. When will the temple be destroyed and when the ends of times will be.
    Jesus first answered the temple question, and the end times question immediately after. Concluding his statement he plainly stated: the end of times will happen within his (Jesus') generation (within 100 years respectively).
    Some answers will be: "he wasn't talking about his generation". I invite you to read every verse Jesus used the word "generation". Ex: "O generation of vipers", "But to what shall I compare this generation?", "Faithless and perverse generation! How long will I be with you?", etc.
    Also, please don't answer with this being a metaphor for the fig tree.

    3)
    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

    If Jesus claims he himself doesn't know the day or hour, why is he predicting the times of his second coming?
    You could say, "he's predicting the season, not day or hour". I would disagree as he gives specific time frames. If he says "some standing here shall not die", then I'm sure he has a good idea of the time frame.

    4)
    "Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

    Self explanatory, when Jesus was telling his disciples to go spread the gospel, he said he would "come" before they finished their mission. When Jesus used the words, "Son of Man coming", he didn't mean, "I'll catch up with you". He always referred to the second coming. If you don't agree with that, read that chapter in context.

    5)
    Jesus' own disciples believed he would return within their lifetime.

    "Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."

    "For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel"

    "The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers."

    “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done."

    "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

     
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  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Jesus never said he was returning in the same generation he lived and died in...and we know he didn't. He hasn't returned yet and it's been about 2000 years.
     
  3. MasterYourLife

    MasterYourLife New Member

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    Yes he did say.
     
  4. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    He probably meant in this church age, and not a human generation. It is usual for use the word "generation" for what we would say today as "dispensation". Because a thousand years to the Lord is just one day, the dispensation to him has only lasted two days until now. After all, what if Jesus delays His coming for a while yet? No one is actually going anywhere are we?
     
  5. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi New Member

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    First Jesus was by the temple with a crowd.
    Then he went to the mount of Olives with his disciples alone.Two different locations, two
    different questions.


    Verily I say unto you, that this generation
    shall not pass, till all these things be done.

    But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    There is 2 abomination of desolation's in the bible,
    one has been fulfilled, one has not. the future generation that sees all those things mentioned he was referencing.

    Also many things in the bible are dual in nature.
    There was an urgent message given back then
    to the disciples, also an urgent message given to his saints [and the world ] today.
     
  6. HowRU?

    HowRU? New Member

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    “1)
    "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

    Very plainly Jesus said he will return within at least 50-100 years (assuming his disciples wouldn't live past 100).”

    You quoted the above ( I stink at properly posting parts of quotes, lol). Immediately after this passage was the fulfillment of Jesus words. The “some who are standing here” is Peter, James and John, I believe, who Jesus led up on the “mountain of transfiguration”. They saw Jesus in the glory of his coming kingdom talking to Moses and Elijah.
    So I think point number 1 is baseless.

    Your best argument is point number 3 where you sight that no one knows the day or hour, Jesus included, so Jesus may have been expecting a sooner rapture of the church and second coming. This is a very provocative thought, and an interesting insight, though I’m not sure where it takes us...
     
  7. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Well, what we know from history:

    - the generation Jesus was speaking of witnessed the coming of the spiritual kingdom - Christianity; The end of the old, Jewish era. Jerusalem and temple destroyed. Jews expelled out of the land. Israel is not taken care of by God anymore. No other prophets, no Law, no sacrifices.
    In the church, on the other hand - prophets, miracles, gifts of the Spirit, new Scriptures written. This is the change/coming of kingdom, of glory.

    This was a huge shift and this really happened as Jesus predicted. The problem is that some texts seem to indicate that these events should also include the end of the world and Jesus coming visibly.
    In this I think its possible that the writers of the Bible collected His sayings (wrongly) together because they thought they belong together (the first church believed that Jesus will return soon).

    Many first church proto-gospels are just various sayings/teachings of Jesus put together, without being properly separated to contexts. Gospels we have in the Bible tried put them into context, but sometimes differently (they disagree with each other about the context) and therefore sometimes wrongly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  8. HowRU?

    HowRU? New Member

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    My take on the “generation” thing is that mankind post-flood is one generation, pre-flood is another generation. (Somewhere in here the word “antidiluvian” goes, but I’m not sure where).

    On the other hand, if Jesus the man, prior to his assension into heaven did not know the day or hour, then maybe he was simply referring to the rapture/2nd coming occurring in the following 30 to 40 years. Maybe that was his best guess at the time. It certainly is good advice to assume that it could happen at any time, for the follower of. Jesus.

    On the other, other hand, Jesus knew the scriptures (prophets) better than anyone, which seemed to suggest that more events must still occur, at that time. Definite head-scratch here.
     
  9. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    We have Daniel, Luke, Mark and Matt.. can't leave these out. And..sorry I must have a different bible. You clearly said "very plainly Jesus said He will return within at least 50-100 years" This was ADDED. Didn't Christ say some where that no one knows? "Some standing here will not taste death".. there are different views on this. Then we have Rev everything Christ says there. ALL must be looked at.
     
  10. Semper-Fi

    Semper-Fi New Member

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    Luke 19:12 (KJV)
    He said therefore, A certain nobleman [Christ] went into a far country [heaven]to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.


    6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    Daniel 2:44 (KJV)
    And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    Daniel 7:18 (KJV)
    But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever,
    even for ever and ever.

    Daniel 7:27 (KJV)
    And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    Daniel 7:22 (KJV)
    Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Revelation 11:15 (KJV)
    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    At the last trumph
     
  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus did not say in a hundred years, and the evil generation of His time has continued until now.

    Paul says we can become like Jesus, "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (in Philippians 2:13-16).

    I see how this can mean Satan's kingdom and its ongoing evil generation.

    And with God we will not taste the death which is of sin and its love deadness.
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    To me, the "thing" here is that Jesus seems to have said he would return during the lives of the people who were hearing his words (or some of the people of that generation at least), BUT if he had returned, other events forecast in Scripture about the Second Coming would also have to have happened. Because they did not, it seems the only answer is that the verse cannot be taken literally.
     
  13. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    Well, I know of at least one person who was there that isn't dead. His generation did not pass away.

    I would also argue that the fullness of the house of Israel still hasn't come into the kingdom, and the Word still needs to be preached.

    He stood before a temple and said that if it were destroyed, that he would rebuild it in three days. Given the juxtaposition, they thought he was talking about the structure behind him, but he was really talking about himself. He named Peter, saying that on this rock he would build his church, yet the rock that the church was built upon was Christ. He is the rock of our salvation. Again, they didn't realize he was talking about himself. I think, in this case, he was referring to himself as the generation that would not pass away, and he was the fulfillment of the promise to King David of a descendant whose kingdom would last forever.

    I know the exact wording doesn't necessarily fit with that explanation, and I know that not every translation can be read in that light, but I still think that's what Jesus was driving at.
     
  14. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    It says only that some of them will see him “coming in his kingdom”, not that they will see everything else also.

    Could it be that the things have happened already?

    I think he only tells the signs that comes before it.

    From death?
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Are you saying that Jesus returned in the first century AD?

    which suggests that the meaning of "this generation" is NOT what it would mean if taken literally.

    Almost all Christians agree to that interpretation, so all that it could teach us about the return is that the verse in question is NOT to be taken any more literally than when he was speaking of himself as the temple.

    Not necessarily, but you are giving us even more evidence that Christ often used analogies or metaphors when making his most important points.

    In sum, "this generation" does not appear to have meant the 20-80 year time period of time that "generation" means by either of two usual ways: the span of a human generation OR as referring to the life span of ANY individual alive at the time Christ spoke those words (i.e. in that generation).
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  16. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    The way I see it:

    Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    .
    .
    Followed by a lot of events that are NOT the end:
    .
    .
    Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    .
    .
    Leading up to almost the end, until:
    .
    .
    Mat 24:14
    ... and then shall the end come. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)​
    .
    .
    Followed by a lot of end times/tribulation episodes, then:
    .
    .
    Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

    Ye = Whoso readeth, let him understand (Everybody reading this)
    These things = The verses with end times episodes closest to this verse (abomination of desolation, etc., which clearly have not come to pass yet)
    This generation = Ye, the readers who actually see the abomination of desolation, etc.

    As a side note: This message is not for those who are presently saved and reading the words in Matthew, as they will be safely with the Lord by then. Most of Matthew 24 is post-rapture and a message to those left behind on how to recognize and prepare for the cataclysmic events to take place during the great tribulation.

    IOW, we won't see the abomination of desolation, but those who are left behind need to know when to expect the rise of the antichrist and everything that follows.

    Of course, as always, there are those who disagree. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  17. MasterYourLife

    MasterYourLife New Member

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    Bump
     
  18. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    The struggle is believing the return is for the world, but in spirit, for those who have believed (past tense).

    In other words, it is waiting for the Lord to defend you from your enemies, but not without giving you the words to do the same.

    In terms of favour, there is a reminder of the return, for every generation, it just remains up to God to carry the faith forward - for a greater outpouring, for generations to come.

    That's why it says "endure to the end and you will be saved" - God desires to save, not only you: but all that had the faith you had.
     
  19. Mark51

    Mark51 Newbie Supporter

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    Please, in the future, identify the scriptures that you quote.

    Peter, James and John are witness-Matthew 17:1, 2.

    The transfiguration showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a fore-view of his future glory and Kingdom power. It also served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. The disciples saw, in effect, the “Son of man coming in his kingdom,” just as Jesus had promised a week earlier. (Matthew 16:28) After Jesus’ death, Peter wrote about having "...become eyewitnesses of his magnificence,... while we were with him in the holy mountain." (2 Peter 1:16-18) It also indicates the future importance of the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete
     
  20. MasterYourLife

    MasterYourLife New Member

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    That's where people make a mistake. The verse prior (27), Jesus explains what the coming entailed. Which was: coming with angels, in Fathers glory, to judge every man.

    Question: did angels come down at the transfiguration?
    Did Jesus come to judge?
     
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