Explain how Jesus was in the tomb 3 days & 3 nights.

Theo102 · Nov 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
It is not very likely they went to attend his body on the day of Firstfruits, before the third day ended. Three full days and nights is 72hrs.

You're implying that Luke is incorrect about the tomb being found empty on the third day. Your argument about firstfruits originates with Paul, who was a liar, but there is not reason to thing that Luke was lying.

http://torah.clonehost.net/paul.html

CherubRam · Nov 22, 2018

Theo102 said:
You're implying that Luke is incorrect about the tomb being found empty on the third day. Your argument about firstfruits originates with Paul, who was a liar, but there is not reason to thing that Luke was lying.

http://torah.clonehost.net/paul.html

Christ said "three days" and "three nights"
If Christ was not in the grave for 72hrs, then he did not fulfill his prophecy.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Theo102 · Nov 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
Christ said "three days" and "three nights"
If Christ was not in the grave for 72hrs, then he did not fulfill his prophecy.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke and the second account from Matthew don't mention three days and nights.

Luke 11
29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 16
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

http://torah.clonehost.net/pages/jonah.html

Also, Luke refers to a non-existant prophecy, the closest match is Hosea 6:2, which does not mention the Messiah.

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luke 24:46

CherubRam · Nov 22, 2018

Theo102 said:
Luke and the second account from Matthew don't mention three days and nights.

Luke 11
29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 16
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

http://torah.clonehost.net/pages/jonah.html

Also, Luke refers to a non-existant prophecy, the closest match is Hosea 6:2, which does not mention the Messiah.

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luke 24:46

Jonah 1:17
Now the Lord provided a huge fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Holy one see decay

Psalm 16:10
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Acts 2:27
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Acts 2:31
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Acts 13:35
So it is also stated elsewhere: “‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Acts 13:37
But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Theo102 · Nov 22, 2018

As well as the three days and nights of Jonah in the fish there's "For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation".

Jonah told them: "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown", but this didn't happen because the people believed Elohim.

Also you can't see decay if you're not dead in a tomb, i.e. taken from prison and judgement per Isaiah 53:8.

Theo102 · Nov 22, 2018

CherubRam said:
Holy one see decay

Psalm 16:10
because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

The word translated as 'decay' is shacath, which can refer to a sepulchre or grave.

John 1720 · Nov 27, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
There is a reference to this in Matthew 12:40. It appears Jesus was not in the tomb three nights. Most of Christians traditionally believe that Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon, “placed in the tomb before sundown Friday night, rested in the tomb on the Sabbath (Saturday) and was resurrected on Sunday morning before dawn.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40

So how does it make 3 days & 3 nights?

This was not always the historic tradition and the modern tradition from every perspective I see is in error, which is why they cannot account for three days and nights. See below:

John 1720 · Nov 27, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
There is a reference to this in Matthew 12:40. It appears Jesus was not in the tomb three nights. Most of Christians traditionally believe that Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon, “placed in the tomb before sundown Friday night, rested in the tomb on the Sabbath (Saturday) and was resurrected on Sunday morning before dawn.

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 12:40

So how does it make 3 days & 3 nights?

If you reference the historian Agapius you'll find there was also a standing tradition for AD 31 being the year of our Lord's crucifixion.

In the year 19 of Tiberius Caesar, and in the year 342 of Alexander, Our Lord Christ was crucified (The year 342 equates to AD 31).

While we don't know his sources Agapius did have access to Church historian Hegesippus, who whose works were still very much extant in his day. The AD 31 date certainly makes better sense in my opinion than aligning it to AD30 or 33.
The alignment of AD 31 and Matthew 12:40:

“For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Now the Jewish Calendar for AD 31 shows Nissan 14 beginning on a Wednesday Evening. Wednesday, of course, only began after the sun had set; the Lord’s Supper had taken place; and Jesus suffered His agony in the Garden of Gethsemane as He prepared Himself to take upon His cross.
Now Gentiles typically don’t understand Jewish tradition, which is based on Scripture. Nissan 14 is indeed the Passover offering, in which the Lamb was slaughtered on the 14th. However it is not eaten until that evening and there is the key; for the evening after the slaughter necessarily becomes the 15th of Nissan being as it is, after the sun sets. This is just how the Jewish calendar works. See below:

https://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/3283921/jewish/Why-Is-Passover-on-Nissan-15-Not-Nissan-14.htm

John 1720 · Nov 27, 2018

PART 2

So, as stated The Jewish day actually begins at sunset, and not sunrise as we are used to. Remember the ladies bringing the spice for the Lord’s body? They simply had no opportunity to bring their spices to the tomb because of the Sabbath? A double Sabbath is one clue as to why they couldn't get to the tomb until Sunday dawn. We should also remember that our Lord Himself prophesied that He would be in the tomb for 3 nights and 3 days. How do we reconcile 3 full days and 3 full nights from Friday Evening till Sunday morning using the Jewish system?
I infer you simply cannot reconcile 3 nights and days. However, in AD31 there was a double Sabbath. Nissan 14 started Wednesday evening, the night Jesus was arrested. Thursday morning and afternoon would still be Nissan 14, when Jesus spent the 6th hour (noonday) until the 9th hour (3 PM) on the cross. Everything on Thursday before sunset would have still been Nissan 14 but as soon as sunset took place the Jews would celebrate their High Sabbath, which was the start of Nissan 15 – this is the Passover meal and celebration. So, Jesus’ first night in the tomb was that Thursday evening Nissan 15 and His first day was Friday dawn to sunset, thus exacting 1 full day, just like the creation days which consisted of evening and morning! Evening and morning the 2nd day consisted of Friday evening all the way through to Saturday’s sunset – Nissan 16. Christ’s 3rd and last day was Saturday Evening until Sunday morning Sunrise – Nissan 17 and that morning broke with the Son truly rising in Glory. Soon after Mary Magdalene became the first witness of our Lord’s resurrection.

Theo102 · Nov 27, 2018

John 1720 said:
A double Sabbath is one clue as to why they couldn't get to the tomb until Sunday dawn. We should also remember that our Lord Himself prophesied that He would be in the tomb for 3 nights and 3 days. How do we reconcile 3 full days and 3 full nights from Friday Evening till Sunday morning using the Jewish system?

If the high Sabbath was on the day after the weekly Sabbath the work on Sunday morning would be forbidden for the same reason as the previous day. I'd guess that it simply wasn't culturally acceptable for women to be in a tomb with a corpse at night. The text relating to the sign of Jonah is inconsistent about how is should be interpreted, so three days and nights isn't the simple answer. Also according to Luke the empty tomb was found on the third day, so three nights is inconsistent with that as well. The prophetic references to the crucifixion give better support to the Islamic view of the event than they do for the Christian view.

Theo102 · Nov 27, 2018

This doesn't work with Luke, since the empty tomb was found on the first day of the week, which would mean

John 1720 said:
How do we reconcile 3 full days and 3 full nights from Friday Evening till Sunday morning using the Jewish system?

You can't unless you throw out Luke. Days were counted inclusively, meaning that on morning of the the third day only one full day and two full nights would have passed since the body was placed in the tomb.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:21

John 1720 · Nov 27, 2018

Theo102 said:
This doesn't work with Luke, since the empty tomb was found on the first day of the week, which would mean

You can't unless you throw out Luke. Days were counted inclusively, meaning that on morning of the the third day only one full day and two full nights would have passed since the body was placed in the tomb.

But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:21

Yes, no one is throwing out Luke. It was inclusively the 3rd day.
Jesus died near the closing hours of Nissan 14, when the Passover Lamb is slain. They rushed to put Him in the tomb just before sunset flipped the day. So His first Day of Sabbath rest was the evening of Nissan 15. It is here we start the count using the Jewish system of counting days.

Day 1 Nissan 15: evening and morning, which was a High Sabbath for the feast of unleavened bread. Our context in AD31 would be Thursday night and all day Friday until sunset.
Day 2 Nissan 16: evening and morning, which was the 7th Day Sabbath. Our context would be Friday evening as well as Saturday until sunset -This would have been a double Sabbath causing the ladies to wait until the 1st day of the week at daybreak to bring the spices.
Day 3 Nissan 17: evening and morning, the 1st Day of the Week. Our context would be Saturday evening and Sunday until sunset. But for Jesus' Jewish disciples this was indeed Sunday, even though it started the evening before. The risen Christ met his two disciple on the road to Emmaus on Sunday afternoon the 1st day of the week - while it was still being counted as the 3rd day in fulfilment of the prophecy.

PS: This might help put Nissan 15-17 of AD 31 in better context:

Hebrew Calendar

CherubRam · Nov 27, 2018

John 1720 said:
Yes, no one is throwing out Luke. It was inclusively the 3rd day.
Jesus died near the closing hours of Nissan 14, when the Passover Lamb is slain. They rushed to put Him in the tomb just before sunset flipped the day. So His first Day of Sabbath rest was the evening of Nissan 15. It is here we start the count using the Jewish system of counting days.

Day 1 Nissan 15: evening and morning, which was a High Sabbath for the feast of unleavened bread. Our context in AD31 would be Thursday night and all day Friday until sunset.

Day 2 Nissan 16: evening and morning, which was the 7th Day Sabbath. Our context would be Friday evening as well as Saturday until sunset -This would have been a double Sabbath causing the ladies to wait until the 1st day of the week at daybreak to bring the spices.

Day 3 Nissan 17: evening and morning, the 1st Day of the Week. Our context would be Saturday evening and Sunday until sunset. But for Jesus' Jewish disciples this was indeed Sunday, even though it started the evening before. The risen Christ met his two disciple on the road to Emmaus on Sunday afternoon the 1st day of the week - while it was still being counted as the 3rd day in fulfilment of the prophecy.

PS: This might help put Nissan 15-17 of AD 31 in better context:

Hebrew Calendar

Preparation Day was on Friday before the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Matthew 27:62
[ The Guard at the Tomb ] The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 15:42
[ The Burial of Jesus ] It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 23:54
It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

CherubRam · Nov 27, 2018

Theo102 · Nov 27, 2018

John 1720 said:
Yes, no one is throwing out Luke. It was inclusively the 3rd day.

That doesn't work for your timeline. Luke starts counting days with the crucifixion, not the sabbath. Day 1 is the day of preparation for the sabbath, not the sabbath itself.

Luke 24
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

According to your timeline:

Nisan 14 starts Wednesday evening, crucifixion takes place Thursday afternoon.
Nisan 15 (high sabbath) starts Thursday evening.
Nisan 16 (weekly sabbath) starts Friday evening.
Nisan 17 (first day of the week) starts Saturday evening.
Nisan 17 around dawn the empty tomb is discovered (Sunday).

So according to your timeline, on Sunday Luke should have observed that if was the fourth day since the crucifixion.

Theo102 · Nov 27, 2018

CherubRam said:
Preparation Day was on Friday before the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Do you agree that the high sabbath was on the same day as the weekly sabbath?

CherubRam · Nov 27, 2018

Theo102 said:
Do you agree that the high sabbath was on the same day as the weekly sabbath?

High Sabbath or Special Sabbath refers to both, the Passover and Unleavened Bread. No work was to be done on those days.

John 1720 · Nov 28, 2018

CherubRam said:
Preparation Day was on Friday before the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Matthew 27:62
[ The Guard at the Tomb ] The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 15:42
[ The Burial of Jesus ] It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 23:54
It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

It was not on Friday in AD 31, which was Nissan 16

CherubRam said:
Preparation Day was on Friday before the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Matthew 27:62
[ The Guard at the Tomb ] The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Mark 15:42
[ The Burial of Jesus ] It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Luke 23:54
It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Hi Sir,
Yes, they were preparing for the HIGH Sabbath of Passover and feast of unleavened bread, which I formerly addressed in a previous post; illuminating why Passover is celebrated on Nissan 15 and not Nissan 14 and why work in preparing for the feast is allowed. John's Gospel also augments and affirms that piece of missing information. So not the 7th day Sabbath, which no one says but has easily confused many and caused them to infer the crucifixion took place on a Friday before the evening Sabbath. The Preparation inference is on this day, Nissan 14,they actually prepared and slaughtered the sacrificial lamb and rid themselves of all leavened bread in preparation for the feast of unleavened bread. The following is excerpts are from the url I posted on why Passover is traditionally celebrated on the 15th and not the 14th and the preparation of the Lamb and the matzahs.

"Chag Hamatzot is a reference to the preparing of matzah in anticipation of our redemption, relying on G‑d to provide for us"
"The Torah tells us that we were not to sacrifice the lamb while we had leavened bread in our possession. Even in modern times, we rid ourselves of all leaven before midday of the 14th of Nissan, the time when the sacrifice was once brought.
(Note: Jesus, "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" - John 1:29 was prepared and brought forth for crucifixion about the 6th hour and He gave up His Spirit by the 9th hour. This was before sunset, although darkness had entirely enveloped Jerusalem.
"The 'Passover' on the 14th is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th along with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs."
Note: That the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th is not eaten until nightfall which is Nissan 15 when the tomb was sealed by the Romans.
But rather than just go by Jewish heritage and tradition, lets take a look at the Gospel of John, which was the last Gospel to be written and took it upon Himself to document both Jesus' earlier ministry while baptizing in the Jordan and attending the feasts in Jerusalem, as well as providing clearer insights into His Passion.
John 19:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” -
Note: Pilate had thus prepared Jesus for the slaughter and the true Passover.
John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

So AD31 had a double Sabbath, Nissan 15 which was indeed a high Sabbath, as the Apostle John explains and the 7th Day Sabbath starting on our Friday evening and ending at sunset on our Saturday. We can also see from the supplied Hebrew Calendar for our AD31 that Thursday evening after the tomb was sealed began Christ's first day of sabbath rest in the tomb supplied by Joseph of Arimathea; where He rested from His Work of restoring the nature of man to God, as well as the 7th Day Sabbath Friday evening through Saturday Sunset. He then arose about dawn of the 1st day or the 8th day as some prefer to call it. AD31 fits, has an ancient testimony to it as the year, whereas AD 30 and 33 do not. Not that knowing the exact date is monumental to our fundamental belief in Christ but I do believe that this is truly the date as well as full of symbolism that God also provides in the fulfillment of prophecy.
In Christ, Patrick

John 1720 · Nov 28, 2018

CherubRam said:
High Sabbath or Special Sabbath refers to both, the Passover and Unleavened Bread. No work was to be done on those days.

They were allowed to prepare for the feast, which included preparing the lamb, slaughtering the lamb, ridding themselves of unleavened bread, preparing the matzahs, and they were quite within their right to take a Sabbath Day's journey, as Golgotha is right outside the walls of Jerusalem as we can see "the place of the skull" even in our day. They were also allowed to congregate and we do not see any forbidden work being done in the Gospels.

John 1720 · Nov 28, 2018

Theo102 said:
That doesn't work for your timeline. Luke starts counting days with the crucifixion, not the sabbath. Day 1 is the day of preparation for the sabbath, not the sabbath itself.

Luke 24
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

According to your timeline:

Nisan 14 starts Wednesday evening, crucifixion takes place Thursday afternoon.
Nisan 15 (high sabbath) starts Thursday evening.
Nisan 16 (weekly sabbath) starts Friday evening.
Nisan 17 (first day of the week) starts Saturday evening.
Nisan 17 around dawn the empty tomb is discovered (Sunday).

So according to your timeline, on Sunday Luke should have observed that if was the fourth day since the crucifixion.

Hi Sir,
Joseph and Nicodemus worked feverishly to prepare Jesus' body for burial in the tomb before the high Sabbath came upon them and they were most likely barely were able to. So if you want to count a few minutes as a whole day that's up to you but I'm not going to get out the atomic clock when most here still want to use Friday as the crucifixion and entombment day and they can somehow count 3 days and nights.
The tomb itself was only sealed on the High Sabbath according to Scripture - since Pilate ordered them to put the Roman Seal on the tomb to protect it from robbery. It's important to note that breaking that seal would have most likely been a capital crime; not something that fearful men would have attempted.
Lastly, I just want to state for the record, that I'm not putting this out as dogma, dates don't matter but knowing Jesus as your Lord and Savior does. This is simply a traditional date I believe is very ancient and I think it makes a whole lot more sense than the assumptions modern scholarship has made, especially regarding the 3 days and 3 nights Jesus Himself spoke of.
In Christ, Patrick

Explain how Jesus was in the tomb 3 days & 3 nights.

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