Exile from the Garden of Eden. Whose fault was it?

[lucaspa]

I think the important thing is to put the event in perspective. God planned the whole episode, thus it couldn't have proceeded any other way. It is God's plan to 'remarry' vicariously through his son, to a 'bride' who will ALWAYS be faithful. (His first 'marriage' didn't go so well.) That's what this whole human experience thing is about.

For those non-Christians looking at the thread, be advised that not all Christians (not even the majority) believe God "planned the whole episode". Textually, it doesn't look like God did plan it. Otherwise, why would God have to ask why Adam and Eve were hiding? He would already have known.

While Christians do believe God has a "plan", for most Christians that does not mean that God set everything out in detail and that it all unfolded in every detail.

 

[lucaspa]

It was the story's god's fault. An all powerful, all perfect god made everything. Made a talking snake, made satan, made sin, made adam and eve, made the garden, then let them sin and destroy it all.

First, the idea that God is "all powerful" and "all perfect" is not part of the beliefs of the people at the time the story was written. And to understand the story, we must always keep in mind the historical and social context.

Second, Adam and Eve's disobedience did NOT "destroy it all". There is a list of punishments for Adam and Eve's disobedience toward the end of Genesis 3, and those punishments are very limited and specific. For instance, the Garden was not destroyed. It was intact as Adam and Eve left it.

And by let, I mean let, he could have helped, he could have done a million things a perfect god would have. But he didn't. The story in and of itself and the "fact" in this story believed by millions that an omnimax god created things such as sin, such as satan, and etc. Shows he is either a buffoon and therefore not all knowing, or just made up. Either way violates his attributes, of which, not all can co-exist.

OK, let's look at this. First, there is nothing in Genesis 2 to identify the serpent as Satan. In fact, we find Satan in Job still in God's good graces! That would certainly not be the case if serpent = Satan. Also, if serpent = Satan then that means that living snakes have Satan's DNA! No one really believes that.

Second, just how is God supposed to have "helped". You say there are "millions of things". Start naming them and then look to see what other effect those things would have. Genesis 1 is clear that God creates humans for their own sakes. In fact, that is clear in Genesis 2 also. So just how is God supposed to guarantee obedience?

Third, at the time Genesis 2 was written, God was viewed as very powerful, knowing, and present. It's a later human extrapolation that gives us the "omnis". Does God have to be "omni" to be God? Not really. So the problem isn't really with God, but with people hypothesizing characteristics about God that God may not have.

Fourth, most Christians do not believe that the story is literal history. A clue to that is that Adam and Eve are not real names. That is, they are not words used only as names. "Adam" = Dirt and "Eve" = Hearth in the original Hebrew. That means we have a story of Dirt and Hearth. That should tell you the story was meant as allegory. So instead of historical people, Adam and Eve are characters that are meant to stand for each and every one of us. It's not so much that Adam and Eve disobey God, but that each of us in our lives disobeys God. In doing so, we become spiritually dead.

What this means is that you are making a strawman out of the story as a means of attacking Judeo-Christianity instead of trying to understand the religion.

So, do you want to learn about Christianity, or do you just want to attack it?

 

[lucaspa]

I said I want to debate but not on this site (I prefer a fair for all medium) and

So why do you want to debate? You have a different belief: that Yahweh (Christian god) does not exist.

Why aren't you comfortable with that belief? Why do you feel the need to "debate" in order to show everyone else that you are "right"? Can't you be tolerant and believe what you believe and let us believe what we believe?

(And which site do you want to discuss on?)

 

[98cwitr]

it's both of their faults

 

[aiki]

It was the story's god's fault. An all powerful, all perfect god made everything. Made a talking snake, made satan, made sin, made adam and eve, made the garden, then let them sin and destroy it all.

A necessary part of giving His creatures genuine free will. See Molinism.

And by let, I mean let, he could have helped, he could have done a million things a perfect god would have. But he didn't.

I think God did quite a lot. He warned Adam and Eve of the danger of eating the Forbidden Fruit. He gave them a paradise to live in and His own company to enjoy. He made Adam and Eve for each other. Certainly, they were not in a situation where they were sorely pressed by need to eat of the Forbidden Fruit. They had plenty of other good things with which to nourish and occupy themselves. It wasn't like God set Adam and Eve in a barren wasteland without food and water and then placed the Forbidden Fruit right in front of them and said, "Go on. Take a bite." Far, far from it.

Had Adam and Eve lived in Eden without the temptation of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would not have had a choice but to continue to enjoy God and the pleasures of the Garden. The Forbidden Fruit provided them with a conscious choice to obey God, an opportunity to exercise their will toward their Maker. Without such a choice, Adam and Eve would have been little more than puppets or prisoners in Eden.

The story in and of itself and the "fact" in this story believed by millions that an omnimax god created things such as sin, such as satan, and etc. Shows he is either a buffoon and therefore not all knowing, or just made up.

God did not create sin - despite what hyper-Calvinists might claim. And He did not create Satan as the devil we know him as today. Just as we choose evil so, too, did Satan.

What sort of a reaction do you expect to get when you suggest the God Christians worship is a "buffoon"? Certainly, you show significant disrespect to Christians by using such language to describe their God. Here's a tip: If you want us to respect you, you will need to respect us.

I don't see how it follows that because God foreknew all that would transpire in this world, He is necessarily the author of it. I can foresee that my cat is going to get a hairball when she licks herself, but that doesn't mean I caused the hairball.

Either way violates his attributes, of which, not all can co-exist.

Oh? How so?

Selah.

 

[lucaspa]

They had plenty of other good things with which to nourish and occupy themselves. It wasn't like God set Adam and Eve in a barren wasteland without food and water and then placed the Forbidden Fruit right in front of them and said, "Go on. Take a bite." Far, far from it.

True. But here I have to say that the story doesn't paint God as being too bright. Any human parent knows that, even tho you have plenty of fruit and vegetables around, when you tell a small child "don't take cookies from the cookie jar", that is exactly what they are going to do!

So any parent could have told God that, eventually, the kids were going to get into the cookie jar (even without a serpent) and taste the Fruit.

But, quite frankly, I think this is part of what the storytellers were inspired to say. When it comes right down to it, scripture tells about a series of attempts by God to get humans to do what is good for them, and those efforts consistently fail. God does not understand humans very well.

The Forbidden Fruit provided them with a conscious choice to obey God, an opportunity to exercise their will toward their Maker. Without such a choice, Adam and Eve would have been little more than puppets or prisoners in Eden.

Yes, you are stating to a major point in theology: free will. And one that Live_Free does not seem to be considering, despite the screen name. This story is one way to express that. But there are many other stories in the Bible that also demonstrate free will and some of the negative consequences of it (the seduction of Bathsheba comes to mind, or the making of the golden calf). So I have a difficult time thinking this was the primary purpose of the authors.

I'm thinking the story was a way to explain a part of the human condition everyone could see.

And He did not create Satan as the devil we know him as today.

Or ... Satan as "we know him today" is a human invention and never existed at all.

I don't see how it follows that because God foreknew all that would transpire in this world, He is necessarily the author of it. I can foresee that my cat is going to get a hairball when she licks herself, but that doesn't mean I caused the hairball.

Good point. Or that the kids are going to take the cookies from the cookie jar! I didn't cause them to do it, but because I know human nature I can see that they will do this. And yes, I could set the cookie jar out of reach (maybe) or have no cookies at all. But then it would be something else.

The story, Live_free, does express basic truths about humanity. All of us, at one time or another, are going to place our desires ahead of what God desires for us. We're going to eat the Fruit, or the cookies, or whatever. Adam and Eve just represents us and that truth in a stroy.

 

[bling]

True. But here I have to say that the story doesn't paint God as being too bright. Any human parent knows that, even tho you have plenty of fruit and vegetables around, when you tell a small child "don't take cookies from the cookie jar", that is exactly what they are going to do!

So any parent could have told God that, eventually, the kids were going to get into the cookie jar (even without a serpent) and taste the Fruit.

But, quite frankly, I think this is part of what the storytellers were inspired to say. When it comes right down to it, scripture tells about a series of attempts by God to get humans to do what is good for them, and those efforts consistently fail. God does not understand humans very well.



Yes, you are stating to a major point in theology: free will. And one that Live_Free does not seem to be considering, despite the screen name. This story is one way to express that. But there are many other stories in the Bible that also demonstrate free will and some of the negative consequences of it (the seduction of Bathsheba comes to mind, or the making of the golden calf). So I have a difficult time thinking this was the primary purpose of the authors.

I'm thinking the story was a way to explain a part of the human condition everyone could see.



Or ... Satan as "we know him today" is a human invention and never existed at all.



Good point. Or that the kids are going to take the cookies from the cookie jar! I didn't cause them to do it, but because I know human nature I can see that they will do this. And yes, I could set the cookie jar out of reach (maybe) or have no cookies at all. But then it would be something else.

The story, Live_free, does express basic truths about humanity. All of us, at one time or another, are going to place our desires ahead of what God desires for us. We're going to eat the Fruit, or the cookies, or whatever. Adam and Eve just represents us and that truth in a stroy.

I know my post 12 is long, but please read it because it addresses what you are saying. I promise you God knows all about man even prior to making the first man and giving us all free will.

 

[aiki]

True. But here I have to say that the story doesn't paint God as being too bright. Any human parent knows that, even tho you have plenty of fruit and vegetables around, when you tell a small child "don't take cookies from the cookie jar", that is exactly what they are going to do!

Well, Adam and Eve were not children, first of all. They weren't bumbling around in the bushes sucking their thumbs; they were walking and talking with God Himself. And what greater incentive to avoid the Forbidden Fruit could God have offered but fellowship with Himself? None that I can think of. As well, they didn't have the curse of sin upon them as we do now. They weren't as inclined by nature to sin as they were after they disobeyed their Maker. Consequently, they weren't as weak toward the temptation of the Forbidden Fruit as you seem to think.

I don't see God as lacking intellectually in giving them the opportunity to choose to obey Him. It seems such a choice was necessary - even if Adam and Eve chose badly.

But, quite frankly, I think this is part of what the storytellers were inspired to say. When it comes right down to it, scripture tells about a series of attempts by God to get humans to do what is good for them, and those efforts consistently fail. God does not understand humans very well.

Actually, I think its the other way 'round: People don't seem to understand God very well.

Selah.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Deleted.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

For those non-Christians looking at the thread, be advised that not all Christians (not even the majority) believe God "planned the whole episode".

They will, in time.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Textually, it doesn't look like God did plan it. Otherwise, why would God have to ask why Adam and Eve were hiding? He would already have known.

It was a rhetorical question.