Executing 7 men in 10 days this Easter will not restore justice to Arkansas

[Tallguy88]

I disagree. The governor said he needed to complete the executions to give the victims' families closure. But in this case, the victims' families, seeing he had become a force for good in the prison and the world, begged the governor NOT to execute him. They even paid the airfare of Williams' daughter and granddaughter to allow them a final visit. Obviously they reached closure when they forgave him--and regret his execution.

In the general prison population Williams could have ministered to the prisoners and helped them to use their prison experience to rehabilitate themselves.

They just sent him to God a little bit earlier--because it seems obvious that Williams is seated at the right hand of St. Dismas, the good thief.

That may be the case. The way one of the lawyers I work with explained it is that it is irrelevant to the justice system if the family doesn't want the person executed after the sentence has been passed. That the time for them to express their objection is at sentencing. The reason she said is because his offence is against the state and the state had an interest in seeing the sentence carried out.

I'm glad this man seems to have repented. May he rest in peace.

 

[Armoured]

Genesis 9
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

That's the same book that claims you can alter a goat's genetics by casting shadows on it with sticks, right?

 

[Tallguy88]

It's worse than I though. I thought Williams only killed two people. But he actually killed 4 people, 3 of them cold blooded murder, the other a driving accident while on the run from his murders. He also tried to kill another victim who survived.

And not all of his victims forgave him or wanted him granted clemency. The wife of one of the people he killed after escaping said:

"We've been waiting a long, long time for this. He did a wrong. His jury of peers gave him a death sentence. People have to be punished for the things they've done,"

AR Executions Recap: What Kenneth Williams did to Land on Death Row

 

[Shiloh Raven]

Speaking of the Old Testament....

There are also commands to stone a woman to death if she is caught in adultery and not to suffer a witch to live. I am sure those commands would not be suitable for a modern, civilized society today.

Again, concerning the OT, there seems to be some confusion over whether to take revenge or not...

"It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them." - Deuteronomy 32:35

And this is repeated in the New Testament....

"Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord." - Romans 12:19

And these words of Jesus from Matthew 5:38-48....

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor" and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Source: Bible Gateway

 

[GeorgeJ]

"Justice" and "revenge" are two separate things.

Criminals should face justice as applied by the civil law. The severity of that justice should fit the crime.

 

[Tallguy88]

Speaking of the Old Testament....

There are also commands to stone a woman to death if she is caught in adultery and not to suffer a witch to live. I am sure those commands would not be suitable for a modern, civilized society today.

Again, concerning the OT, there seems to be some confusion over whether to take revenge or not...

"It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them." - Deuteronomy 32:35

And this is repeated in the New Testament....

"Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord." - Romans 12:19

And these words of Jesus from Matthew 5:38-48....

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor" and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Source: Bible Gateway

Those refer to you taking personal revenge or vigilante justice. It was somewhat acceptable in the OT, but not in the NT. But execution is carried out by the State and is presented as the purview of the state in wielding the sword and punishing the evildoer.

Romans 13:1-5 ESV (bold mine)

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

 

[Fantine]

My question is whether Williams' life in prison was serving an important purpose in God's plan--and it seems obvious to me that it was.

While my experience in prisons is confined to television shows and movies, I know that there are far more bad influences than good ones, and I know that Williams could have been a wonderful influence in a general prison population--not to mention that the two books he wrote could reach people and help them avoid lives of crime.

So the Arkansas prison system has just become a less positive environment because one of those "shining lights" that Pope Francis talked about in TED Talk has been extinguished.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

He was given life and then murdered again. How many chances should someone get before we say enough is enough? Even the catechism is OK with execution to keep us safe when prison isn't enough to stop the killing.

Were we truly still in danger from this man?

 

[Tallguy88]

Were we truly still in danger from this man?

It's impossible to say.

They say he found Jesus and repented and became a model prisoner in his last years. That's good. It could have been his eminent death which convicted him to repent. St. Thomas Aquinas argues that that is one of the benefits of the death penalty vs long term inprisonment. If they won't repent in the face of their death, then it's absurd to think they are more likely to repent if they are given more time.

"The fact that the evil ones, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement.

They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so obstinate that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from malice, it is possible to make a quite probable judgment that they would never come away from evil.”

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III Chapter 146

 

[Tallguy88]

My question is whether Williams' life in prison was serving an important purpose in God's plan--and it seems obvious to me that it was.

While my experience in prisons is confined to television shows and movies, I know that there are far more bad influences than good ones, and I know that Williams could have been a wonderful influence in a general prison population--not to mention that the two books he wrote could reach people and help them avoid lives of crime.

So the Arkansas prison system has just become a less positive environment because one of those "shining lights" that Pope Francis talked about in TED Talk has been extinguished.

Cummins Unit certainly isn't a nice place. But typically death row inmates are not released into general population. So I'm not sure he would have had a direct impact on other prisoners.

 

[Fantine]

If his sentence had been commuted to life without parole he could have been a powerful witness. And he wrote two books--which took plenty of time, not at the time of imminent death.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

It's impossible to say.

They say he found Jesus and repented and became a model prisoner in his last years. That's good. It could have been his eminent death which convicted him to repent. St. Thomas Aquinas argues that that is one of the benefits of the death penalty vs long term inprisonment. If they won't repent in the face of their death, then it's absurd to think they are more likely to repent if they are given more time.

"The fact that the evil ones, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement.

They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so obstinate that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from malice, it is possible to make a quite probable judgment that they would never come away from evil.”

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III Chapter 146

If it's impossible to say, then we can't conclude his execution made us safer. I don't think that's then a valid reason for his execution. If you want to argue that threatening people with death helps them find religion, that's another argument entirely, used by many faiths under many circumstances.

 

[Tallguy88]

If it's impossible to say, then we can't conclude his execution made us safer.

On the contrary, I don't know that he would not have killed again if his sentence was commuted. I know he will not kill again now.

Remember, this man was given life, then killed three more people, two of them cold blooded murder. He had a merciful sentence then threw it away. No sympathy for him. I did have sympathy for some of the others who seem like maybe they got railroaded by the system or could have had better trials, etc. But not this guy. Guilt is certain, crimes were heinous, he showed a propensity to reopens and continue to kill. He death sentence is fully justifiable by the law, catholic teaching, and common sense.

I don't think that's then a valid reason for his execution. If you want to argue that threatening people with death helps them find religion, that's another argument entirely, used by many faiths under many circumstances.

I'm only talking Catholic theology and that's just one relevant facet. There are other justifications, but since they haven't been brought up, I haven't addressed them.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

On the contrary, I don't know that he would not have killed again if his sentence was commuted. I know he will not kill again now.

Remember, this man was given life, then killed three more people, two of them cold blooded murder. He had a merciful sentence then threw it away. No sympathy for him. I did have sympathy for some of the others who seem like maybe they got railroaded by the system or could have had better trials, etc. But not this guy. Guilt is certain, crimes were heinous, he showed a propensity to reopens and continue to kill. He death sentence is fully justifiable by the law, catholic teaching, and common sense.


I'm only talking Catholic theology and that's just one relevant facet. There are other justifications, but since they haven't been brought up, I haven't addressed them.

It's not likely the only two options were execution or commuting his sentence. If he was not killed by the state, but remained in a maximum security prison, would he still have been a threat to us?

 

[Tallguy88]

It's not likely the only two options were execution or commuting his sentence. If he was not killed by the state, but remained in a maximum security prison, would he still have been a threat to us?

That would be commutation.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

That would be commutation.

Apologies for the incorrect word choice. So if they commuted his sentence to life in a max security prison, is our safety measurably at risk? Are we safer because he is dead?

 

[Tallguy88]

Apologies for the incorrect word choice. So if they commuted his sentence to life in a max security prison, is our safety measurably at risk? Are we safer because he is dead?

I'd say so. Based on previous experience with this particular inmate.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

I'd say so. Based on previous experience with this particular inmate.

Was he likely to escape?

 

[Tallguy88]

Was he likely to escape?

Don't know.

 

[Fantine]

Richard Rohr, OFM wrote today about the fallacy of "Redemptive Violence."

Richard Rohr Meditation: The Myth of Redemptive Violence

Here's what he says:

there is no such thing as redemptive violence. Violence doesn’t save; it only destroys in both short and long term. Jesus replaced the myth of redemptive violence with the truth of redemptive suffering. He showed us on the cross how to hold the pain and let it transform us, rather than pass it on to the others around us.