Executing 7 men in 10 days this Easter will not restore justice to Arkansas

Shiloh Raven · Apr 26, 2017

tadoflamb said:
I'm posting this just for the bizarre factor. This is so weird I'm having a hard time believing it's true. But, then again, this is AZ.

Arizona unveils new death penalty plan: bring your own lethal injection drugs

SMH.

Armoured · Apr 26, 2017

Tallguy88 said:
Don't respond to my posts if you can't do so without making it personal.

I didn't.

Godlovesmetwo · Apr 26, 2017

tadoflamb said:
I'm posting this just for the bizarre factor. This is so weird I'm having a hard time believing it's true. But, then again, this is AZ.

Arizona unveils new death penalty plan: bring your own lethal injection drugs

so if its a firing squad, you bring your own guns and ammo?
They can save money too!

Armoured · Apr 26, 2017

tadoflamb said:
I'm posting this just for the bizarre factor. This is so weird I'm having a hard time believing it's true. But, then again, this is AZ.

Arizona unveils new death penalty plan: bring your own lethal injection drugs

I've been saying for a while now that if the state INSISTS on killing people, they could at least use something known to be effective and painless, like a huge dose of diamorphine. I hadn't quite considered it as a BYO option, though.

Armoured · Apr 26, 2017

So hey, anyone ever notice how the people who are quick to dismiss any sort of "bad childhood" mitigation argument when discussing crime and punishment, are often the same people who, in other circumstances, will tell you it's an absolute proven fact that a child needs to come from a loving, stable, two heterosexual parent household to stand even a chance of being a basic, functional adult?

Tallguy88 · Apr 26, 2017

Armoured said:
I didn't.

"it's nice of you" is personal.

Fantine · Apr 26, 2017

At least Oklahoma is learning from Arkansas' mistakes.

Oklahoma commission recommends extending death penalty moratorium - CNN.com

In my experience, Oklahoma has the worst lawmakers in the nation (the Environmental Protection Agency Dismantler, their former Attorney General Pruitt, is a good example).

For once they did something right.

All those southern states stuck on the bottom in every statistical category--and while Arkansas takes the inhumane prize, Oklahoma's climbing up from the bottom on their shoulders.

(This is not a criticism of southern states, it's a statistical fact that you are free to dispute...)

Armoured · Apr 26, 2017

Tallguy88 said:
"it's nice of you" is personal.

So is "if you can't do so without making it personal", too, then.

Tallguy88 · Apr 27, 2017

I think the one scheduled to happen tonight is the most in line with the Churches current position on the necessity of the DP. The Catechism says that it should only be used when imprisonment isn't enough to stop them from killing. Well this guy murdered somebody, got life in prison, then escaped and murdered someone else.

I'd say that meets the criteria that in this case the DP is the best way to ensure the safety of society from this man.

The others probably don't meet the criteria. At least not the ones already carried out. I haven't reviewed the ones who are on stay.

Tallguy88 · Apr 27, 2017

Here's the actual quote

2267: Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The fifth commandment

tadoflamb · Apr 27, 2017

Tallguy88 said:
Here's the actual quote
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The fifth commandment

That last line is a killer.

Fantine · Apr 27, 2017

What seems interesting is that the man scheduled to be executed tonight, Kenneth Williams (I am not sure whether the execution was carried out), had the victim's family asking for his life to be spared.

Victim's Family Asks State to Spare Kenneth Williams' Life

The victim's family bought Williams' daughter and granddaughter plane tickets to Arkansas so that they could be with him before his execution. They forgive Williams.

God has touched the hearts of this family...

Tallguy88 · Apr 28, 2017

The execution wad carried out

Fantine · Apr 28, 2017

Yes.

And according to this article, Williams had become an ordained minister while in jail and wrote an autobiography warning young people not to get involved in gangs. He received (protestant) communion and spoke in tongues on his last day on earth.

It sounds like he could have been a powerful influence for good in prison and through his writings. I think that, given the family's wishes and his amazing rehabilitation, his life should have been spared.

Williams became an ordained Christian minister while in jail and has written an autobiography and a book warning against joining gangs. In a letter to his victims that he read before his execution, Williams said: “I was more than wrong. The crimes I perpetrated against you all [were] senseless, extremely hurtful, and inexcusable. I humbly beg your forgiveness, and pray you find the peace, healing and closure you all deserve.”

Arkansas Executions: Kenneth Williams Becomes Fourth Prisoner Put to Death in a Week

Tallguy88 · Apr 28, 2017

Fantine said:
Yes.

And according to this article, Williams had become an ordained minister while in jail and wrote an autobiography warning young people not to get involved in gangs. He received (protestant) communion and spoke in tongues on his last day on earth.

It sounds like he could have been a powerful influence for good in prison and through his writings. I think that, given the family's wishes and his amazing rehabilitation, his life should have been spared.

Arkansas Executions: Kenneth Williams Becomes Fourth Prisoner Put to Death in a Week

He was given life and then murdered again. How many chances should someone get before we say enough is enough? Even the catechism is OK with execution to keep us safe when prison isn't enough to stop the killing.

Fantine · Apr 28, 2017

I disagree. The governor said he needed to complete the executions to give the victims' families closure. But in this case, the victims' families, seeing he had become a force for good in the prison and the world, begged the governor NOT to execute him. They even paid the airfare of Williams' daughter and granddaughter to allow them a final visit. Obviously they reached closure when they forgave him--and regret his execution.

In the general prison population Williams could have ministered to the prisoners and helped them to use their prison experience to rehabilitate themselves.

They just sent him to God a little bit earlier--because it seems obvious that Williams is seated at the right hand of St. Dismas, the good thief.

Armoured · Apr 28, 2017

Awful lot of bloodlust for a "liberal Catholics" thread, isn't it?

Fantine · Apr 28, 2017

I think that the majority of posters here believe, as does Pope Francis, that the death penalty is unnecessary when secure incarceration is possible.

It seems as if Williams' case, and the interaction of the victim's family, is an extraordinary example of God's grace acting in both Williams' heart and in the hearts of the victim's family.

GeorgeJ · Apr 28, 2017

Genesis 9
5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

Tallguy88 · Apr 28, 2017

Armoured said:
Awful lot of bloodlust for a "liberal Catholics" thread, isn't it?

Who is expressing bloodlust?

Executing 7 men in 10 days this Easter will not restore justice to Arkansas

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