Executing 7 men in 10 days this Easter will not restore justice to Arkansas

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Site Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,426.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I did hear that one of the appellate judges did talk somewhat that firing squad would be more likely to pass the cruel and unusual punishment standard than lethal injection.

I don't know why LI has become the standard. Hanging was the traditional way to execute criminals and if performed correctly, results in quick death.
 
Upvote 0

Godlovesmetwo

Fringe Catholic
Mar 16, 2016
10,398
7,257
Antwerp
✟17,860.00
Country
Djibouti
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
I did hear that one of the appellate judges did talk somewhat that firing squad would be more likely to pass the cruel and unusual punishment standard than lethal injection.

I don't know why LI has become the standard. Hanging was the traditional way to execute criminals and if performed correctly, results in quick death.
What is that stuff they use to put dogs to sleep? ketamine? I mean if they have to use injection, just put them to sleep, none of this gagging for 5 to 10 minutes, that is horrific!
This is going to sound really insensitive but the death penalty might at least address overcrowding in prisons. I don't think I would last in prison and might ask to be executed anyway.
 
Upvote 0

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟68,185.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
This is going to sound really insensitive but the death penalty might at least address overcrowding in prisons.

To be honest, I don't know if what I'm about to say is correct off the top of my head, but my impression is that overcrowding is not really a problem in the United States on a national level. I remember reading that a maximum security prison was sitting empty and that they were asking to get the Gitmo prisoners transferred there, but that it was denied because of backlash from the public and the increased access that would give prisoners to the judicial system (I don't agree with Gitmo and their treatment of prisoners, indefinite detentions, non-trials, and military tribunals of non-members of the US military, but that's another subject).

But that's just one specialized prison. More broadly, I've heard private prisons are being built that governments pay to incarcerate prisoners in, and they are being built in bulk with excess capacities that would allow them to incarcerate many more prisoners. Some say that that there is sort of a loop where these businesses build prisons and then make campaign contributions to and air ads on behalf of us politicians who they lobby to be "tough on crime" and create more prisoners that they will get paid to house. The conditions in private prisoners typically suck, and they should be phased out, but Trump loves them, so...

So, basically, those are two examples of things I think we're doing wrong, *but* that seem to point towards overpopulation not really being a problem in terms of total national prison capacity. There's room to house people who'd otherwise be executed. Frankly, the number of executions nationally is fairly low (Although even one would be too high), so it's not as if it makes a huge difference as to size of the overall prison population here one way or the other. Many states have already banned the death penalty completely.

That's not to say that there isn't some specific issue like prisons being crowded in Los Angeles, but I'm fairly certain that California, being a left-leaning state, probably made the death penalty illegal there a long time ago anyway. And that would just be one locality- nationally there are more cells than prisoners, I would guess, if one takes these private prisons into account.

Of course, the situation could be different in other countries like Australia. How are you guys coping with North Korea threatening to nuke you, by the way? Is the average person there terrified right now, or kind of dismissive of it and thinking it's an empty threat?
 
Upvote 0

Godlovesmetwo

Fringe Catholic
Mar 16, 2016
10,398
7,257
Antwerp
✟17,860.00
Country
Djibouti
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
How are you guys coping with North Korea threatening to nuke you, by the way? Is the average person there terrified right now, or kind of dismissive of it and thinking it's an empty threat?
empty threat, no dramas
 
Upvote 0

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟68,185.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
what about the cost of keeping prisoners alive?
(should I just hand in my liberal badge now? :) )

The cost of keeping a prisoner alive the rest of his or her life is actually less than the cost of executing them and allowing them to exhaust all their legal appeals (Which people have more of a right to in death penalty cases for obvious reasons) and all the other things like acquiring the drugs to kill them and so on and so forth, on average. So, getting rid of the death penalty saves money, at least in the US system as it stands now. Granted, some conservatives would probably like to strip people of their rights to appeal and just line them up and shoot them the day after the first trial, but that's not what we do or what I believe in, personally.

There really is no cost benefit to having legal executions under our current judicial system. The cost benefits are on the side of eliminating the death penalty, at least here.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Shiloh Raven
Upvote 0

Godlovesmetwo

Fringe Catholic
Mar 16, 2016
10,398
7,257
Antwerp
✟17,860.00
Country
Djibouti
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
The cost of keeping a prisoner alive the rest of his or her life is actually less than the cost of executing them
we don't have the death penalty in Australia. I think someone said it costs about 40 000 Australian dollars a year to keep one prisoner.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Godlovesmetwo

Fringe Catholic
Mar 16, 2016
10,398
7,257
Antwerp
✟17,860.00
Country
Djibouti
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
But the death penalty is horrendous. I mean the electric chair for instance. What kind of aberration is that? Hanging just sickening.
There were two aussies who got the firing squad in Indonesia last year. Imagine being on death row and contemplating that.
If you have to have the death penalty think of the quickest, most painless means. And don't have them on death row for long. just do it quick.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JCFantasy23
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟68,185.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
empty threat, no dramas

Glad to hear you guys are holding up alright down there. I read that article a couple days ago where the threat was made and felt a chill run down my spine.

As odd as it may seem to say, given that they are both tyrannical despots, I think the current North Korean leader's father was much more sane than the current one is. Most of the time you can count on leaders of actual countries to at least act in their own best interests. There are a lot of rogue countries that might seek to acquire nuclear weapons, but would never launch them if they got them, because they know if they did, their country would be leveled and they'd hang if they weren't crushed in the radioactive ruins of their palace or whathaveyou first. The current guy just seems unhinged to me, and I worry that that relying on him not to do anything catastrophic isn't enough- he almost certainly has to be disarmed.

My sense is that there will be strategically targeted airstrikes to take out the North Korean nuclear program in the next few weeks. The question is really right now if it's going to be American fighter jets or Chinese fighter jets delivering the payload.

The ideal way would be to have China do it, so as not to make them think we have strategic designs on North Korea and have an endgame of a unified Korea that is essentially South Korea annexing the north and American troops moving up from the DMZ right to the Chinese border. If the Chinese want to disarm North Korea instead of having us do it, that's fine. But somebody needs to do it. If they refuse, we'll have to do it, I'm sure radioing ahead to tell China it's coming so there aren't any accidental incidents with them. Were I President, I would probably be opening conveying to Chinese diplomats that we're fine with them policing North Korea if they want, and we'd even be fine with a pro-Chinese coup in that area and a puppet leader of North Korea (I wouldn't say that publicly, I'd just make sure it was understood by the Chinese). We have to be clear with them that goal isn't to realign the map so that we've expanded our sphere of influence at the expense of one of their fellow communist countries on their border, but just to keep our allies in South Korea, Japan, and Australia, among other places, safe.

The Chinese controlling North Korea would actually be far safer than keeping the current guy in power. The Chinese have plenty of strategic reasons not to want to nuke anyone. I am aware of the North China Sea situation and whatnot, but it's a lesser of two evils kind of thing.

The Chinese are also worried about refugees flooding their borders if North Korea falls, which is understandable, but our concern about them nuking our allies trumps that.

I'm going against type here by favoring military intervention. We liberals usually don't. But I'm not completely a slave to labels. Usually, I think of it the same kind of way I'd think of anything- if they punch us, self-defense is okay, so I (retroactively, I'm not that old) favored WW2 (Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor), the Korean War (Our ally was invaded and a UN Secretary Resolution was passed condemning the invasion- Anyone know why the Soviets didn't veto that resolution? Wikipedia doesn't say and I don't remember), the first Gulf War (circa 1990), and the Afghanistan War (They harbored the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11), but would have or did oppose us entering WW1 (I'll explain that one if anyone really wants me to, but I'm not doing it preemptively- it's a long explanation.), Vietnam (This differs from what happened in Korea in several important ways, which again I'll detail upon request, but otherwise, I'm going to save my fingers some typing :) ), the Iraq the second time (circa 2003), etc. (Although of course once we're in something, I want our troops to win it, because they're my countrymen and women, but that doesn't mean I have to think the politicians made the right call in sending them in).

And, really, I don't think I'd favor a ground invasion of Korea. But surgical aerial and drone strikes, absolutely.

And, actually, for our international readers, it bares mentioning the US Democrats have historically typically been divided on these issues. Most Republicans have favored military attack historically, Democrats are more 50-50, depending on what the action is. There was only 1 Republican Senator who voted against the Use of Force Resolution in Iraq in the early part of this century (Historical note: That Republican eventually became an independent and later a Democrat), but about half of Democrats voted one way and half voted the other way (Although the caveat there is that most of the half of Democrats that voted to approve use of force later said they were lied to by the Bush White House and wouldn't have approved it had they known what the President knew- they were given false or misleading information. Probably 90% of them or more were against the war eventually. Joe Lieberman being one of the main ones who stuck to being for it- and he became a member of the Connecticut for Lieberman Party [Look it up, that was the ticket he ran for re-election to the Senate on in 2006 after losing a Democratic primary for his own seat.]).

I suppose the US Democratic Party has been a lot like the British Labor Party. We've got our Jeremy Corbyn/Bernie Sanders wing and our Tony Blair/Bill Clinton/Hillary Clinton wing. What we have in common is that we're all left of the Republicans. ;) It's just a question of degree. It used to be 50% self-described moderates and 50% self-described liberals in polls of voters who identify as Democrats. That is starting to skew to majority liberal (Which is synonymous with left in the US) self-identifiers, because the country in general is becoming more polarized politically (Bush Jr and Trump will do that to a country). Republican voters have 80-90% conservative self-identifiers and growing for a while now, though- they drove most of the moderate candidates out of their party, and they landed in the Democratic Party, or became independents.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Shiloh Raven
Upvote 0

Fantine

Dona Quixote
Site Supporter
Jun 11, 2005
37,139
13,204
✟1,091,611.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
There is something wrong with our judicial process if we have 5% of the world's population and 20% of its prison inmates (with disproportionate numbers being people of color and the poor). Prison should be rehabilitative (especially if the state has provided inadequate education to the poor and the people of color, which is often the case).

There was ample evidence that the "due process" these prisoners received was marginal at best, criminal at worst. Attorneys having affairs with the judges, drinking on the job, failing to present defenses.

The childhoods of these prisoners were often horrific--physical and sexual abuse, abandonment, substance abuse at home, etc.

But it's OK, I get it...a lot of it has to do with our views of God.

People who think these inmates got "due process" are sometimes liable to see God as someone who is up there in heaven reading some lengthy legal tome, not even peering over his spectacles at the "defendants." And so they think it's OK because they think God's justice is just as arbitrary and legalistic.

But we here in TLT see God as one who understands us completely and sees every obstacle in the road we have traveled on earth. Ain't it grand to be a TLT'er? Wouldn't you like to see God the way TLT'er's do, too?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Site Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,426.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
What's Tallguy's take on this?
I don't consider the death penalty from a cost/benefit perspective. I consider it as society enacting justice against the most heinous criminals.
 
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Site Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,426.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
There is something wrong with our judicial process if we have 5% of the world's population and 20% of its prison inmates (with disproportionate numbers being people of color and the poor). Prison should be rehabilitative (especially if the state has provided inadequate education to the poor and the people of color, which is often the case).

There was ample evidence that the "due process" these prisoners received was marginal at best, criminal at worst. Attorneys having affairs with the judges, drinking on the job, failing to present defenses.

The childhoods of these prisoners were often horrific--physical and sexual abuse, abandonment, substance abuse at home, etc.

But it's OK, I get it...a lot of it has to do with our views of God.

People who think these inmates got "due process" are sometimes liable to see God as someone who is up there in heaven reading some lengthy legal tome, not even peering over his spectacles at the "defendants." And so they think it's OK because they think God's justice is just as arbitrary and legalistic.

But we here in TLT see God as one who understands us completely and sees every obstacle in the road we have traveled on earth. Ain't it grand to be a TLT'er? Wouldn't you like to see God the way TLT'er's do, too?
Neither of the men executed a few days ago denied their guilt. One of them even went so far as to say he deserved the death penalty and would reject clemency if the governor granted it.

And I can't abide the rough childhood argument against the death penalty. A lot of people have bad childhoods and they don't go on to rape and murder a mother and daughter. As long as the men were mentally competent regarding what they were doing, then they are personally and individually responsible for their crimes and the state has recourse to the death penalty.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,358
14,061
✟234,967.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
what about the brother who was killed at a Malaysian airport? what did he do to deserve such a fate?
Tried to go to Disney World.

Edit: no, really! Look it up!
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: Godlovesmetwo
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,358
14,061
✟234,967.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Neither of the men executed a few days ago denied their guilt. One of them even went so far as to say he deserved the death penalty and would reject clemency if the governor granted it.

And I can't abide the rough childhood argument against the death penalty. A lot of people have bad childhoods and they don't go on to rape and murder a mother and daughter. As long as the men were mentally competent regarding what they were doing, then they are personally and individually responsible for their crimes and the state has recourse to the death penalty.
Not all people respond the same way to a situation, and not all circumstances are equal , but it's nice of you to handwave bad childhoods for us.
 
Upvote 0

Tallguy88

We shall see the King when he comes!
Site Supporter
Jan 13, 2009
32,459
7,737
Parts Unknown
✟240,426.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Not all people respond the same way to a situation, and not all circumstances are equal , but it's nice of you to handwave bad childhoods for us.
Don't respond to my posts if you can't do so without making it personal.
 
Upvote 0

tadoflamb

no identificado
Feb 20, 2007
16,415
7,531
Diocese of Tucson
✟74,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
We're having a similar problem in Arizona obtaining one of the drugs used in lethal injections. The drug in this case is a muscle relaxant which is used not so much for the comfort of the inmate, but for the comfort of the spectators so that they don't have to witness the victims convulsions as they die.

From what I have seen about the death penalty I believe it's just another component in our culture of death and I don't care for the State carrying out these executions in my name. I think they're sick and the State shouldn't have anything to do with them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

tadoflamb

no identificado
Feb 20, 2007
16,415
7,531
Diocese of Tucson
✟74,331.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0