Excuse Chart

mkgal1 said:

I agree.

Also....what makes sense in my mind is that there was--most likely---some sort of argument over all of this that could have kept her from her shower (and sleep was more important than showering at that point).

Obviously they're excuses and not reasons. People use those when reasons aren't respectfully accepted.

Click to expand...

I guess this is the part that I don't understand. If you agree they are obviously excuses and not reasons, then why try to come up with a rational reason for the not showering? Is it an excuse or not?

tall73 said:

I guess this is the part that I don't understand. If you agree they are obviously excuses and not reasons, then why try to come up with a rational reason for the not showering? Is it an excuse or not?

Click to expand...

Why can't it be both (an excuse AND a rational reason for not showering)? The pattern does appear to be excuses, for sure.

I'm just trying to imagine how these encounters go. I doubt he initiates, she responds with an excuse, and he's totally respectful and understanding about it (otherwise.....would there BE a spreadsheet charting all of this?).

It's possible---I admit--that she just totally dismisses his requests & suggests that all he thinks about is sex, and that's why he came up with the spreadsheet. That's another possibility. But I doubt it.

It's difficult to bring up any sense of not being treated the way we'd like. That *does* put the other person on the defensive (usually).....and can cause them to pull away even more (from feeling criticized).

Inkachu said:

Not sure who you're referring to with this, but if it was my response to the video, that is not at all what I said. Not even close.

Click to expand...

Actually. I wasn't referring to anyone in specific, nor anything to do with that video

For the record - I found the video kind of juvenile, too. I also think that it's a little simplistic (and wrong) to say that the way to a man's heart is through the vagina.

It's more akin, IMHO, to what I've been saying...which is...sex is the thing that separates "friendship" from "spouse". So no, I don't believe that you can get someone's love by giving them sex...but you sure aren't going to have a marital/spousal relationship without it either.

I agree. But, like you said earlier......marriage isn't marriage w/o genuine friendship, either (which includes the ability to resolve issues so that everyone is satisfied with the solutions).

Exactly. 'tis everything.

Sorry. That's a bit annoying how that repeats in a loop (but I loved the sentiment ).

EZoolander said:

Actually. I wasn't referring to anyone in specific, nor anything to do with that video

Click to expand...

And that's why I asked I'm glad!

bluegreysky said:

See I'm still new at marriage but .... The first few days of marriage, while on the honeymoon, we did plenty of good stuff.

Click to expand...

That's right. You are still at the very beginning/new marriage stuff when rabbit love happens. 2 kids later, an autoimmune disease that has a lot of comorbid conditions, chronic iron deficiency anemia, chronic fatigue and a full plate with all of these health concerns and you're lucky if you remember your name, have any hearing or have any hair left (or that isn't grey!!) at the end of the day.

...part of the mistake I was making that lead to me not addressing his needs before he had to ask at the very last minute was I was treating it like dessert. You know how most people only eat dessert after dinner and doing the dishes and working out and all that?
well I was treating it like it was a special reward for a good day or for the weekend or for date night.
NO.
Some research I did pointed to it being more liek a vitamin.

Click to expand...

Yeah. No. Not for everyone. Again, different libidos. There has to be a meeting of the minds to figure out what frequency is best for both partners, otherwise you'll end up with someone who has a high and wonderful time and another who feels very taken advantage of.

For some it is a vitamin, for other it's dessert, and for still others it's a meal every day or *more*. This is why it is so important that couples talk about their libidos to find out if there will be a good match or not. Also important is whether or not one or both partners have sexual hangups or problems due to past abuse that may not have been properly dealt with.


If things fall off considerably and there are no physical illness, fitness issues or sexual problems; the most common libido killers are stress, children, relationship problems, and illness.

Dr. Logan Levkoff: 5 Ways Stress Can Affect Your Sex Life
Loss of libido (sex drive) - NHS Choices

This is where personality and compassion plays in. How you deal with these high stress things that damper the libido is a good indication whether things will get better and increase later on.

favoritetoyisjoy said:

My wife and I have written things back and forth. I didn't know that could be a problem until recently.

Click to expand...

The way I see it, once you talk it out, apologize, and forgive, you let it go and don't keep bringing it up again, (keeping a record of wrongs.)

We don't know if these people are Christians. If not, they may not live by I Corinthians 13.

EZoolander said:

I always find these sexual refusal discussions interesting - because there's always kinda this "but, it's just sex, poor poor him" dynamic to it...or "he must have done something to deserve it"...or "he shouldn't keep track"...or...a myriad of other things that kinda diminish the problem the guy has with it.

The only thing that I'm left thinking is that women must really misunderstand why guys get married...or what sex means in the guy's mind.

Maybe the closest thing that can be related is that book and concept "He's just not that into you". Sexual refusal, to most guys, is akin to that. We simply cannot envision why someone would refuse unless they just weren't all that into us. Sex is something we desire - in and of itself - as it's own end. That's why women generally (I think) have such a hard time relating to it (sexual refusal) - because they experience so little of it.

Click to expand...

You articulate a male perspective on this well here. I say a male perspective. There are males with low sex drives married to women who have higher sex drives. But the typical scenario is the man with the higher desire for sex (at least without a lot of 'romance' leading up to it.

We could come home after getting hit by a bus, with a broken leg in a cast, after having not slept for 3 days in the hospital, having just lost our job due to being absent from work...and if our wife seemed like she was game for it we'd probably find a way.

Click to expand...

Or after 10 days of hardly eating or walking while suffering from dengue fever in a hospital in a developing country.

I always kinda wonder how women would react if they received the same types of sexual refusal that guys complain about over a prolonged period of time...lol I think about times my wife has initiated and the few times I said I wasn't in the mood (and meant it) - and how it seemed to start bringing up insecurities or wonderment...and then wonder how that would play out over months and months and months.

Click to expand...

That's really true. A woman who has experienced this should think about this if she denies her husband.

It may sound 'unidealistic' to say that men marry for sex or that sex is a huge factor in a man's mind when it comes to marriage. But we need to consider what the Bible says about the topic. The Bible provides marriage as the solution to prevent fornication. It says that the husband has power over his wife's body and the wife has power over her husband's body, and not to defraud one another. Each partner is to meet the other's sexual needs. The idea of not cheating the other partner out of their sexual rights to one's body is a Biblical concept.

Most often - though - if we refuse - the only reason why we can conceive of it is because we find something fundamentally wrong with the girl. We're just not that into her - or find her kinda repugnant in some way or other. That's the message that guys interpret with refusal.

Click to expand...

That's true for a lot of guys. I don't know if all the lower sex drive men who (wrongly) refuse their wives do so for those reasons. If it's a big problem, there is always the 'off' setting on the light switch.

So - think back to some guy that wasn't all that into you growing up - how that made you feel - and now envision that you're stuck with them (possibly supporting them) with very little recourse or way out for the rest of your life. lol Then add insult to injury that you can't even take that refusal at face value (like you could with that person who wasn't into you) and just move on - that your entire sexual life is now dedicated to someone that ain't all that into you...and then add to the mix that you're possibly supporting them (hey - you're good enough for your money!)

Click to expand...

The book 'His Needs, Her Needs' makes basically the same point. By getting married, a man signs away the potential to get his sexual needs met anywhere else. If he were to go elsewhere, that's a violation of the marriage agreement. If the wife doesn't meet his needs, she's depriving him of sexual fulfillment and he can't meet the need anywhere else, so of course he feels ripped off. (The Bible uses the word 'defraud.')

If you go to a secular forum for men dealing with the sexual problem of the wife cutting her husband off from sex, a lot of the men will recommend giving an ultimatum-- having a sex life or divorce. I understand the rationale, since not providing sex is a violation of the implicit contract. Biblically, I don't agree with that.

I read one argument once that since Jesus allowed for divorce for 'sexual immorality' (in the NIV), that sexual refusal was grounds for divorce. It's immoral, and it's sexual in nature. The problem is, though, that Jesus spoke of porneia, and 'sexual immorality' is a loose and in some ways poor translation of the term. Porneia is more like 'whoring around.'

Even so, it is immoral to defraud one's spouse sexually. There are people who seem to think nothing of subjecting their spouses to a sexless marriage.

If you're getting married in your 20's, if you don't have kids yet, etc...it's pretty much the sex that made the difference in his decision to marry her. That's simply the fact of the matter.

Click to expand...

And for those who remain virgins until marriage, the man is likely wanting to have sex with his wife after marriage, and expects to have a regular active sex life. So sex still factors in.

I've been a 20 year old guy - and I can tell you that I've never met a woman in my life that prayed so well, that treated kittens so nicely, that had such a great sense of humor, that it made me go "wow - I'm going to now cut myself off to every other option for the rest of my life for this person." Those things may be great - and those are things that you want people around for...but it ain't enough to cut off all other options for. Like I said before - those are friends.

Click to expand...

I've had friends that prayed and friends that loved kittens without having to marry them, too.

And a lot of guys if they think of marriage without sex would think, "I had a roommate who didn't pay half the rent before I got married. Why should I get married for that?"

But - if you're getting MARRIED - I can guarantee you that's at least 50% (if not more) of what he's considering. So when it becomes an issue where it's rarely (if ever) happening - expect that kind of reaction.

Click to expand...

I don't know if it's 50% of the decision to marry a particular person. Sex was certainly a factor in me knowing I was the type of person who needed to get married. As for who I chose, I chose someone I was attracted to. I didn't think of it along the line so someone I was attracted to-- so I could have sex with her-- at the time. I was very much into considering what type of person she was. I wouldn't say 50% of my concerns about her had to do with sex. But sex certainly played into the decision to find a wife.

Children was also a part of that. Usually sex is involved in having children, though nowadays that doesn't always have to be the case.

I wonder if he's rubbish in bed. This may come as shocking news but it is a complete myth that women have a lower sex drive than men, what often happens is that after the honey moon phase, men just stop putting the effort in and a lot of women (and I don't blame them for this) think no sex is better than bad sex.

So, if a man is complaining about a lack of sex in his marriage, the first thing he should do is ask himself a very important question ''does my wife enjoy sex'', and if the answer is no then he should work on changing that.

Athene said:

I wonder if he's rubbish in bed. This may come as shocking news but it is a complete myth that women have a lower sex drive than men, what often happens is that after the honey moon phase, men just stop putting the effort in and a lot of women (and I don't blame them for this) think no sex is better than bad sex.

So, if a man is complaining about a lack of sex in his marriage, the first thing he should do is ask himself a very important question ''does my wife enjoy sex'', and if the answer is no then he should work on changing that.

Click to expand...

Holla.

Before the wedding, there's usually hand holding, hugs, kisses, caresses, cuddles, whispered sweet nothings, passionate embraces. After the wedding, it's often reduced to "hey, you awake?"

Do what you did when you were courting her and treated her like her affection actually meant something to you

LovebirdsFlying said:

That's a good point too. Maybe his definition of sex is, "I get my needs met, but I don't care if you do or not." I wouldn't be very amenable in that situation.

Click to expand...

Or "I do care, but I'm not gonna try too hard".

^^all of that. yes.

All of that could very well be the case

In any of those scenarios, however, I'd argue the wife is shooting herself in the foot and doing nothing but breeding ignorant resentment in the husband by simply deflecting. Would be far better for her to air her concerns, and work on them together.

Equally plausible would be that there have been other changes she finds unappealing. Maybe the guy has gained a bunch of weight. Maybe he's got some other issues going on that are a turnoff.

...maybe she just doesn't feel sexy herself for whatever reason.

Who knows...but what I do believe is that none of it can/will be resolved through that pattern.

Would be far better for her to air her concerns, and work on them together.

Click to expand...

Methinks it's very likely that she *has* aired her concerns (most likely about other topics) and he may be refusing to work on them together. That's what most marriage counselors hear, anyway.

It can go the other way.....she can be the one dismissing his concerns about their sex life---either way---deflecting or dismissing the other spouse's concerns is not going to bode well for the marriage. There is no rug large enough to hide those issues (and they seem to grow while under said rug). Like Ezoo said, "what I do believe is that none of it can/will be resolved through that pattern."