Excommunication!!!

[mark46]

Outside of the US, what percentage of Anglicans are not in the Communion? I agree that there are more organizations that just the Communion, but as ebia has post many times, when someone outside the US uses the term "Anglican", he is usually talking about the Angilcan Communion.

And no, the Anglican model of governance (to the degree we have any) is not like the Patriarch of the West (Roman Catholicism). Our style is much closer to the Eastern model with our patriarch being quite limited in his role(s).

You sound like those people who have the idea that Anglicanism is somewhat like Roman Catholicism in being one worldwide organization. Of course, that's not so.

 

[Albion]

Outside of the US, what percentage of Anglicans are not in the Communion?

Reportedly, about 35%

I agree that there are more organizations that just the Communion, but as ebia has post many times, when someone outside the US uses the term "Anglican", he is usually talking about the Angilcan Communion.

I have to laugh whenever I hear that idea because it's ONLY because of the Continuing Anglican movement that Episcopalians have rediscovered the word Anglican in our own times.

Before 1977, you had to look high and low to find an Episcopal layman who recognized the word and certainly not as referring to himself or his own church! Those who did, insisted that it was a word that meant "Church of England" exclusively.

Today, now that there are Continuing churches with that name, we have the all-too-obvious case of Episcopal parishes going out of their way to include the word in their advertising.

 

[ebia]

Reportedly, about 35%

Really? Where are they?

I have to laugh whenever I hear that idea because it's ONLY because of the Continuing Anglican movement that Episcopalians have rediscovered the word Anglican in our own times.

Before 1977, you had to look high and low to find an Episcopal layman who recognized the word and certainly not as referring to himself or his own church! Those who did, insisted that it was a word that meant "Church of England" exclusively.

Today, now that there are Continuing churches with that name, we have the all-too-obvious case of Episcopal parishes going out of their way to include the word in their advertising.

That's within the US. Mark was following my suggestion that outside the US Anglican and Anglican-Communion are near synonymous.

 

[mark46]

I am willing to discuss the US situation as much as you want. I was addressing the situation outside the US.

Reportedly, about 35%


I have to laugh whenever I hear that idea because it's ONLY because of the Continuing Anglican movement that Episcopalians have rediscovered the word Anglican in our own times.

Before 1977, you had to look high and low to find an Episcopal layman who recognized the word and certainly not as referring to himself or his own church! Those who did, insisted that it was a word that meant "Church of England" exclusively.

Today, now that there are Continuing churches with that name, we have the all-too-obvious case of Episcopal parishes going out of their way to include the word in their advertising.

 

[Albion]

That's within the US.

Right.

Obviously it's different in other countries, but I thought that that development I described was interesting and significant.

 

[lesliedellow]

Reportedly, about 35%

I have to laugh whenever I hear that idea because it's ONLY because of the Continuing Anglican movement that Episcopalians have rediscovered the word Anglican in our own times.

Many years ago, I remember one incredulous person asking how many denominations, calling themselves Anglican, there were in America. The answer was, "How high can you count?"

 

[mark46]

US religion is interesting in the Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches. When we don't like a local church, we just go to another. If we can't find one with views like our own (or which meets our present needs), we change denominations and start the process again.

The US has a consumer and individualistic attitude that is much different than the rest of the world. The Baptists are more honest, I think. They understand that there are a couple of dozen organization groupings and have methods for splitting up a congregation within their local church charters.

Let's be perfectly clear. I have no animosity in my analysis. After all, I have done exactly what I described, and continue to explore as I continue on my spiritual journey. BUT, this is the American way. I'm sure others in the world, where the Church is about a community of believers, find us very strange indeed.

I would note that, for all our strangeness, folks in the US go to church much more than in Canada, the UK, Europe, Australis and New Zealand. As Bishop Wright said after being here for awhile, the US is NOT a secular country. The US is on a spiritual journey. 95% believe in God. The field is indeed ripe.

Right.

Obviously it's different in other countries, but I thought that that development I described was interesting and significant.

 

[Albion]

Many years ago, I remember one incredulous person asking how many denominations, calling themselves Anglican, there were in America. The answer was, "How high can you count?"

You know, we can't dismiss that, even though we are unhappy with this development. However, I can offer a word of caution.

Because there had not been a church with the legal and recognized name of "Anglican" in this country, when The Episcopal Church began to experience its fractures, just about anyone with a copy of the Book of Common Prayer and a few vestments could get away with calling his newly-founded church "Anglican." And because Anglicans are well-known for having a diversity of ideas and practices, the practical side of starting some micro-church wasn't hard either. Lastly, the really, really numerous Old Catholic churches in the USA (none of which is affiliated with Utrecht anymore) could be turned to for Apostolic Succession. So there are many churches calling themselves Anglican. MOST are "one-man bands" or very close to it, and American law does not regulate such matters in the way that some other countries do.

The real Continuing Anglican churches and the overseas-affiliated provinces (like ACNA) are far fewer in number. Given the diversity that is typically American, that's no worse than the Presbyterians, Methodists, and Lutherans, and better than the Baptists and some others we'd all consider recognized and significant families of faith.

 

[everbecoming2007]

US religion is interesting in the Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches. When we don't like a local church, we just go to another. If we can't find one with views like our own (or which meets our present needs), we change denominations and start the process again.

I agree with you. It is very individualistic and based on a consumer model. When I made my commitment to Christ in Anglicanism, I did so with the full intention of dying within this community. It would take a lot to make me leave, even for a very similar community, and that decision would take years for me to make if I had to consider it. I have had people express shock and confusion over this stance, but I have made a commitment to a particular community and theological/liturgical heritage. Even if I wanted to, to transition to another community, such as the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, would require me to learn a different culture with significantly different theology and history. It would be like learning another language. I prefer to learn about these other communities and even visit their churches, but while remaining within my own community. I find this enriches my own heritage.

I think there are legitimate reasons to change denominations, but for me it is much more than a matter of preference.

 

[Hidden101]

You sound like those people who have the idea that Anglicanism is somewhat like Roman Catholicism in being one worldwide organization. Of course, that's not so.

Agreed. It is not so. Each different church has it's own different beliefs. However, when you are excommunicated from one church, do you not become excommunicated from all churches?
Regarding 'Anglican Churches' outside the Anglican Communion... I am not going to comment. The ordinate is a different matter though.

 

[Albion]

Agreed. It is not so. Each different church has it's own different beliefs. However, when you are excommunicated from one church, do you not become excommunicated from all churches?

You are right of course, and I'm somewhat sorry that this came up in the middle of a discussion about excommunication. It was just a side comment, but you know how those things can take off.

Regarding 'Anglican Churches' outside the Anglican Communion... I am not going to comment. The ordinate is a different matter though.

Absolutely. No one had them in mind when writing the past few posts.

Those who take up the offer of the Ordinariate become members of the Roman Church and so are not members of any Anglican jurisdiction. However, there are so few of them that it almost doesn't matter when we're discussing membership totals.

 

[Catherineanne]

Regardless whether he would have been excommunicated if the tables were turned and he was rallying against the anti-homosexuality position, I would argue that he should have been. After all, there is no place for obscenity or a breach of the peace in our church services, as we are there to celebrate and worship the Prince of Peace himself.

Breach of the peace leads to excommunication? How marvellous. How do I nominate the two ladies who sit behind me at Mass, and chat all the way through, regardless of the fact that they come together, sit together, have coffee together and go away together afterwards. They seem never to stop talking.

I want to turn round and tell them to shut up, but I try to remain charitable. I want to ask them afterwards what on earth is so important it can't wait until coffee afterwards, but so far I have not managed to get a word in edgeways with them. And I don't trust myself to stay polite.

Some time ago Father repriminanded a rather noisy church one Sunday and said, 'If you want to chat during the ablutions, kindly make sure I can't hear you.' Since then the whole of the rest of the church is always totally silent and respectful; these two ladies whisper to one another endlessly, seemingly oblivious to the silence all around them.

Excommunication and exclusion from consecrated ground sounds just the ticket.