Excommunication!!!

[Sean611]

Whenever we think of excommunication, we often think of the Roman Catholic Church. However, I stumbled upon this interesting tidbit of info on wikipedia:

"The Church of England does not have any specific canons regarding how or why a member can be excommunicated, although it has a canon according to which ecclesiastical burial may be refused to someone "declared excommunicate for some grievous and notorious crime and no man to testify to his repentance".

Excommunication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Has anyone ever been excommunicated by the Church of England or even refused burial rights? Has this ever happened in TEC or elsewhere around the Communion? Just thought this might be interesting to discuss and learn about.

 

[Sean611]

Apparently, excommunication has happened in TEC and recently:

Anti-Gay Advocate Excommunicated - Beliefnet.com

This guy apparently made obscene gestures during mass and was anti-gay to the point of being very uncharitable. Interesting...

 

[MKJ]

Perhaps it would be useful to think about what it really means to be excommunicate.

The prayer book talks about circumstances under which someone would not be permitted to communicate at the Eucharist. That is really what it means to be excommunicated.

Until such an individual repaired the relationship with the church, it would be accurate to say he or she was excommunicated. If the individual died in that way, then the canon about an excommunicated persons burial would,, I suppose, apply.

 

[Albion]

Apparently, excommunication has happened in TEC and recently:

Anti-Gay Advocate Excommunicated - Beliefnet.com

This guy apparently made obscene gestures during mass and was anti-gay to the point of being very uncharitable. Interesting...

I'm pretty sure that I remember another case of Episcopal Church excommunication, and that too related to being politically incorrect.

 

[Sean611]

I'm pretty sure that I remember another case of Episcopal Church excommunication, and that too related to being politically incorrect.

Indeed, but in this case the guy was making obscene gestures during mass and he admitted that he said horrible things about gay people. In this case, I would say the Church was right to do what they did. They also gave him the chance to say he was sorry for his actions and the excommunication would be lifted. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[Albion]

Indeed, but in this case the guy was making obscene gestures during mass and he admitted that he said horrible things about gay people.

Of course there had to be some "hook." But ask yourself this--if he'd been doing all that (if he did) but against opponents of homosexuality, same sex blessings, etc.--would he have been excommunicated? Surely you don't think so.

 

[ebia]

Has anyone ever been excommunicated by the Church of England

Not lately, as far as I know, but it did happen

 

[kb5462]

Of course there had to be some "hook." But ask yourself this--if he'd been doing all that (if he did) but against opponents of homosexuality, same sex blessings, etc.--would he have been excommunicated? Surely you don't think so.

Regardless whether he would have been excommunicated if the tables were turned and he was rallying against the anti-homosexuality position, I would argue that he should have been. After all, there is no place for obscenity or a breach of the peace in our church services, as we are there to celebrate and worship the Prince of Peace himself.

 

[Albion]

Regardless whether he would have been excommunicated if the tables were turned and he was rallying against the anti-homosexuality position, I would argue that he should have been.

All right. I can't argue against that even if I wanted to. But remember that excommunication in our churches is such a rare thing, that I hope you are willing to say the same of all the goings-on that do not bring excommunication. It's selective enforcement that's the issue.

 

[Doctor Strangelove]

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others, don't you know?

 

[kb5462]

All right. I can't argue against that even if I wanted to. But remember that excommunication in our churches is such a rare thing, that I hope you are willing to say the same of all the goings-on that do not bring excommunication. It's selective enforcement that's the issue.

Oh yes, I fully agree with you on that. I just think that there's a time and a place for protest of that sort, and I'm not so sure the Mass is the correct situation for it.
After all, it is consistency that prevents us from being hypocrites. Consistency in the church is very much needed when the secular world flits from one ideal and moral to the next in seconds.

 

[Albion]

Oh yes, I fully agree with you on that. I just think that there's a time and a place for protest of that sort, and I'm not so sure the Mass is the correct situation for it.

I certainly don't want to make light of that kind of behavior or of people who invade the service in order to make any kind of protest. These sorts of actions are indefensible IMO.

 

[kb5462]

I certainly don't want to make light of that kind of behavior or of people who invade the service in order to make any kind of protest. These sorts of actions are indefensible IMO.

Absolutely.

 

[PaladinValer]

Indeed, but in this case the guy was making obscene gestures during mass and he admitted that he said horrible things about gay people. In this case, I would say the Church was right to do what they did. They also gave him the chance to say he was sorry for his actions and the excommunication would be lifted. Seems reasonable to me.

We are in complete agreement.

It is because I am a proponent of Lambeth 1.10 that I believe the priest and bishop in question were in their full and well-discerned right to excommunicate this individual. Lambeth 1.10 says that, while homosexual "relations" are sinful, homosexuals are people who deserve the same pastoral care as any other person (they are people).

There was no politics on behalf of TEC in this case; this was a canonical and completely theological excommunication that would pass Lambeth 1.10 with full colors, particularly since it decries "irrational fear". Furthermore, hatred of all kinds is deplorable and is a true evil, and to utter such vemon to disrupt the Holy Eucharistic liturgy is beyond appalling.

 

[everbecoming2007]

Of course there had to be some "hook." But ask yourself this--if he'd been doing all that (if he did) but against opponents of homosexuality, same sex blessings, etc.--would he have been excommunicated? Surely you don't think so.

I have NO DOUBT that even if the man had been protesting opponents of homosexuality and the inclusion of the LGBT community in the church, if he were to attack the community repeatedly, admit to writing hateful and distasteful propaganda, and flip off the congregation DURING MASS that he would have been excommunicated. Give me a break!

 

[lesliedellow]

Don Cuppitt is still theoretically a priest in good standing with the Church of England, in spite of being an atheist, so I am not quite sure what you would have to do to get yourself excommunicated from the CofE.

Raping the Archbishop's wife might do it, but I doubt it.

 

[Albion]

I have NO DOUBT that even if the man had been protesting opponents of homosexuality and the inclusion of the LGBT community in the church, if he were to attack the community repeatedly, admit to writing hateful and distasteful propaganda, and flip off the congregation DURING MASS that he would have been excommunicated. Give me a break!

I hate to disappoint you, but as others have noted, getting yourself excommunicated these days is almost impossible, no matter what you do.

As a matter of fact, in the few cases I can remember where action was absolutely called for, resorting to a formality like "excommunication" wasn't done. The guy was merely told to clean out his desk and hit the road (or something close to that).

 

[Hidden101]

One wonders why he would stick to Anglicanism when there has less Politically Correct denominations out there for him to join.

 

[Albion]

One wonders why he would stick to Anglicanism when there has less Politically Correct denominations out there for him to join.

You sound like those people who have the idea that Anglicanism is somewhat like Roman Catholicism in being one worldwide organization. Of course, that's not so.

 

[Cjwinnit]

We are in complete agreement.

Indeed!