Excommunication

[JoeBradley]

I have a friend that just got excommunicated from his church (as well as his fiancee). They were helping out in youth group and some of the ministries at church. They were excommunicated because they were having pre-marital sex and living together. While I completely understand why the church had to do this, my problem with this situation is different. My (ignorant) friend has been confronted numerous times by myself and others about his sinful ways, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it and doesn't feel the need to repent (it's not likely that he ever will either). What makes me upset is that the church told them that once they are married they can resume their work with the church. It's pretty obvious that they are saying that we'll forgive you once you are married. The representative from the church even told them that if they wanted to go to the courthouse that day and legally elope, then they would pretend that the excommunication never took place. Why does it seem like once you are married your previous "life" is forgotten and there's no reason to dwell on the past? Do I have to nail a Martin Luther note on the church door or something to get them to realize that marriage isn't a baptism?

I should also point out that I'm single and could possibly be completely ignorant of the married way of life.

 

[Johnnz]

For many marriage makes sex legitimate. Of course that is true, but much more as well. The church has virtually asked them to 'stand aside' from ministry until their relationship is legitimised.

John
NZ

 

[JoeBradley]

The church has virtually asked them to 'stand aside' from ministry until their relationship is legitimised.

But why would they ask them to come back once they are married if they still believe in pre-marital sex? Just because you're married doesn't mean you change your beliefs. He's my best friend, but I wouldn't want my (future) kids learning from his example. That's like saying, "I enjoyed killing people from time to time, but just because I stopped doesn't mean I think it's wrong."

 

[chrissponias]

This is a tradition. It may seem outdated in our time, but if the church insists so much in a wedding, it is because the relationships without marriage can be too many.

Besides that, a young couple that works for the church should be a good example to be followed. They cannot be part of the church without respecting its rules, and give lessons to the others…

 

[JoeBradley]

This is a tradition. It may seem outdated in our time, but if the church insists so much in a wedding, it is because the relationships without marriage can be too many.

I don't understand. Sorry.

 

[Johnnz]

This is a tradition. It may seem outdated in our time, but if the church insists so much in a wedding, it is because the relationships without marriage can be too many.

Besides that, a young couple that works for the church should be a good example to be followed. They cannot be part of the church without respecting its rules, and give lessons to the others…

I agree with your comment. But, we cannot hold someone forever accountable for a past wrong either. The reality is that many unmarried Christians are sexually active. Some later gain insight as God speaks to them. but their final account is to God.

We must recognise we are a community of fallen and forgiven people. Otherwise none of us could stand tall. That's how life is here on earth with fallen people.

John
NZ

 

[freeport]

I have a friend that just got excommunicated from his church (as well as his fiancee). They were helping out in youth group and some of the ministries at church. They were excommunicated because they were having pre-marital sex and living together. While I completely understand why the church had to do this, my problem with this situation is different. My (ignorant) friend has been confronted numerous times by myself and others about his sinful ways, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it and doesn't feel the need to repent (it's not likely that he ever will either). What makes me upset is that the church told them that once they are married they can resume their work with the church. It's pretty obvious that they are saying that we'll forgive you once you are married. The representative from the church even told them that if they wanted to go to the courthouse that day and legally elope, then they would pretend that the excommunication never took place. Why does it seem like once you are married your previous "life" is forgotten and there's no reason to dwell on the past? Do I have to nail a Martin Luther note on the church door or something to get them to realize that marriage isn't a baptism?

I should also point out that I'm single and could possibly be completely ignorant of the married way of life.

My wife and I lived together, but we considered ourselves married, so we were married. We eventually got a piece of paper from the courthouse because that was just too challenging to people.

The issue is commitment, not a ceremony.

That is... pre-martial sex is an oxymoron as sleeping with someone is unioning your body with them and therefore the true marriage.

Obviously, this is too challenging for most people, despite common law marriage laws which kick in under the exact stipulations and this is clearly taught by Jesus.

John 4:

16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back." 17"I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

So the man the Samaritan woman was with was both her husband and "not her husband". How can both be true at the same time? Because she did not consider the man she was with "her husband", as that is what the world teaches. Likewise, some consider meat sacrificed to idols as impure meat which would challenge their conscience, whereas for others it would not, as Paul pointed out.


The truth, then, is a matter of heart and strong or weak conscience.




So, if these people do not consider themselves married, yet live and sleep together, then they are not married -- even though in the eyes of God they are married.


This is a lack of commitment on their part, and therefore they make their marriage a sin in the eyes of God due to their own weak conscience and adulterous hearts.




Unless, of course, they genuinely consider themselves married already, though they have not been in a ceremony.


But, then, why is that point not being argued?


It is not easy to consider such a thing, despite common law marriage laws.


Many people today sleep around. The problem with that is they are not truly committed to each other in their hearts. They view their circumstances as temporary and each other as someone to potentially throw off at anytime.

In my opinion, that sort of idea, to throw away someone like that is absolutely impure. The whole deepness of romance, the whole point, is the idea of having a happy family and long life together. Sex is nothing in comparison to the joy of family.

 

[JoeBradley]

So, if these people do not consider themselves married, yet live and sleep together, then they are not married -- even though in the eyes of God they are married.

I just want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. God views marriage as sexual intercourse? Therefore, you can have sex before you're legally married, so long as you make a commitment to that person?

 

[freeport]

I just want to make sure I'm reading this correctly. God views marriage as sexual intercourse? Therefore, you can have sex before you're legally married, so long as you make a commitment to that person?

Sexual intercourse is marriage.

Sleeping with someone is a sacred union and that sacred union is marriage in God's eyes.

Therefore, Jesus said, the Samaritan woman is married. Yet she was also "not married" because she was impure and did not consider herself to be committed - hence, married - to the man she was with.

To sleep with someone then sleep with someone else is adultery, except in the case of fornication.


Put again: if these people do not consider themselves married, then they are genuinely not married because of their weak conscience and impurity of heart -- even though they are genuinely married in the eyes of God.


Only reason this is difficult to understand is because people are adulterous in heart, impure, and they have no problem throwing away people.

 

[visionary]

It is amazing how one relates to their partner under the marriage blanket. There is something to be said about that outward committment before the congregation of the inward committment of the heart, mind and soul to the partner.

 

[ffreds]

Freeport hit it right on the head imho. Its whats in your heart that counts, not the peice of paper.

 

[donb1959]

Reconciliation is a huge part of Christianity, and the Church does not have the ability to forgive someone their sins

Shalom,
DonB

 

[LilLamb219]

Your friend and his girlfriend were setting a poor example for the youth of the church by disrespecting God. God wants us to obey our lands' laws and in the country I live, the USA, marriage in most states is a legal and binding contract and not just living together (I don't know if some states still have common law marriage or not).

When a man sleeps with a woman and they are not married, he is stealing what rightfully belongs to that future husband of the woman. He might not be that future husband.

Since they were probably told repeatedly that what they were doing is a sin and they weren't repentant, the church had no choice but to excommunicate them. And yes, if they repent, they will be allowed back in. Repentance is the key here. Right now they still think they aren't sinning, but fornication is a sin and that is what they're participating in by not being man and wife.

Today's society is just too lenient on things like this. God hasn't changed though. If they aren't married, then they aren't married and you've even stated that they're boyfriend and girlfriend.

 

[favoredbyGod]

I can see why they were asked to stop participating on ministry activities, but as far as ex-communication that is a bit much. You are supposed to be attracting people (all people) to the kingdom not pushing them away.
They may not have been fully ready to be in a position over others, but ex-communicating them in my opinion is rude and cruel. Sin can't be measured they are all equal in the eyes of God, so if that's the case, since we all sin, we all should be ex-communicated.

 

[Josh C.]

I think freeport explained it pretty well.

Marriage is a mutual binding commitment made before God and man.

Marriage does not need to be governmentally approved or be before a minister/judge to valid in Gods eyes. (in my opinion)


Not to say your friend is in the free and clear necessary, a lot of people hold off getting married because they have doubts about the longevity of the relationship.

 

[St_Worm2]

I can see why they were asked to stop participating on ministry activities, but as far as ex-communication that is a bit much. You are supposed to be attracting people (all people) to the kingdom not pushing them away.
They may not have been fully ready to be in a position over others, but ex-communicating them in my opinion is rude and cruel. Sin can't be measured they are all equal in the eyes of God, so if that's the case, since we all sin, we all should be ex-communicated.

If anyone in the church (whether in ministry or not) is found to be living in habitual sin and, when confronted, will not repent of it, the church has no choice but to discipline them (Matt 18:15-17; 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thess. 3:6) ... for their own good (1 Cor. 5:5), and for the good of the body of Christ in general (1 Cor. 5:6-7, 11).

Yours and His,
David

 

[Jarvo]

Hi,

First let me prefix my post by saying for the purpose of this post I am working on the premise that pre-marital sex is a sin [Whilst I completely understand the points put forward by the likes of Freeport, I need a reference point put down]

So - the couple mentioned in the OP are sleeping together before marriage. They were also in a position of church leadership, specifically youth leadership. Do I think this creates an issue - I would go with yes. Do I think this means they should be ex-communicated - I think I would have to go with no. For me, I think they should probably have been asked to step down from their leadership positions.

Why don't I think they should have been ex-communicated? Well - firstly the precedent for ex-communication set in 1 Corinthians 5 seems to be about a very specific situation. It then goes on to say near the end of the chapter that all those who indulge in sexual sin should be judged by the church - but does this mean they should be thrown out the church? If it does, we would then seem to come across a slight issue.

If all who 'indulge' in sexual sin are to be thrown out the church, then on the premise of what Jesus said in Matthew 5:28 we need to throw out all who look upon a women with lust. I would suggest that if we do that, the church is going to be rather empty of men!

Ok - so you say of course we don't think that all who sin need to be thrown out the church, the question is where there heart is at - i.e. the problem is that they are sleeping together without seeing anything wrong with it. But why do we make this belief the biggest issue? Why do we discard other factors - such as they might have a great love for people - as being less significant in whether they can be part of the church. I've never seen anyone propose kicking someone out the church for not loving their neighbour (although I witness a lot of people doing it, including myself) - but last time I checked that was one of 2 key requirements of being a christian - and the view on sex before marriage was not.

Now please don't misunderstand. I am not trying to trivialise the issue. However, why would we kick people out of the place where ALL people should be welcome. Are we then not prohibiting people from potentially finding that conviction? If these 2 people were not Christians, I am sure you all agree they should be welcomed in to the Church regardless of their activities. So why do we have such a black and white line of one minute not a christian, the next minute you are = but wait since you didn't change all your thinking in an instance you need to be kicked out.

What is achieved by removing these people from the church?

Jarvo

 

[heron]

I would guess that they would not have been excommunicated if they were not in leadership.

When a person commits themselves to leading within any organization, they commit to espouse the values and goals of that organization. They knew -- or should have known -- that their life choices were not consistent with the teachings of that church.

Imagine being a parent who entrusts their child to the care of youth group leaders, then finds that a different set of standards are applied or encouraged.

Then imagine being the pastor, who gets panicked phone calls from one parent after another. It is not just an issue of being inconsistent, but losing all votes of confidence.

People learn more quickly and thoroughly from observing and mirroring than they do from hearing information. It is almost an unconscious absorption, to pick up what we observe in our environments.

No matter how much great teaching there is in the youth group, what the kids will remember is how their leaders and friends acted and responded to them. That is how they will interpret what Christianity is. When a leader says "yeah it says this but," then one can only expect the next generation will teach the same thing.

Most churches ask people to step down from leadership until they get issues resolved. This is usually done discreetly -- for affairs, addictions, etc. I only hear of sects actually excommunicating.

 

[seashale76]

I have a friend that just got excommunicated from his church (as well as his fiancee). They were helping out in youth group and some of the ministries at church. They were excommunicated because they were having pre-marital sex and living together. While I completely understand why the church had to do this, my problem with this situation is different. My (ignorant) friend has been confronted numerous times by myself and others about his sinful ways, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it and doesn't feel the need to repent (it's not likely that he ever will either). What makes me upset is that the church told them that once they are married they can resume their work with the church. It's pretty obvious that they are saying that we'll forgive you once you are married. The representative from the church even told them that if they wanted to go to the courthouse that day and legally elope, then they would pretend that the excommunication never took place. Why does it seem like once you are married your previous "life" is forgotten and there's no reason to dwell on the past? Do I have to nail a Martin Luther note on the church door or something to get them to realize that marriage isn't a baptism?

I should also point out that I'm single and could possibly be completely ignorant of the married way of life.

Marriage, like baptism, is a sacrament. It is not a human-made social construct (in other words- people can say and do what they like regarding marriage outside of Christ's Holy Church- but they're wrong), but a God-made construct. To quote St. John Chrysostom, “From the beginning God in His providence has planned this union of man and woman…. There is no relationship between human beings so close as that of husband and wife." In marriage, one is called to reflect Christ and to be Christ-like toward their spouse. In other words, people are called to self-sacrifice and martyrdom- giving their all 100%- not just 50/50.

Your friends are fornicating, which is a sin. Excommunication is never meant to be permanent; their return to the chalice is always completely dependent upon the individual deciding to repent and turn from their sins. One is excommunicated for their own protection, as one who communes while being an unrepentant sinner is sinning against the body and blood of Christ and could die.

When your friends continue in sin, are excommunicated, and then are told they can return if they fix the situation by turning from their sin and repenting, then I don't see the issue.

 

[fm107]

Your friend and his girlfriend were setting a poor example for the youth of the church by disrespecting God. God wants us to obey our lands' laws and in the country I live, the USA, marriage in most states is a legal and binding contract and not just living together (I don't know if some states still have common law marriage or not).

When a man sleeps with a woman and they are not married, he is stealing what rightfully belongs to that future husband of the woman. He might not be that future husband.

Since they were probably told repeatedly that what they were doing is a sin and they weren't repentant, the church had no choice but to excommunicate them. And yes, if they repent, they will be allowed back in. Repentance is the key here. Right now they still think they aren't sinning, but fornication is a sin and that is what they're participating in by not being man and wife.

Today's society is just too lenient on things like this. God hasn't changed though. If they aren't married, then they aren't married and you've even stated that they're boyfriend and girlfriend.

If anyone in the church (whether in ministry or not) is found to be living in habitual sin and, when confronted, will not repent of it, the church has no choice but to discipline them (Matt 18:15-17; 1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thess. 3:6) ... for their own good (1 Cor. 5:5), and for the good of the body of Christ in general (1 Cor. 5:6-7, 11).

Yours and His,
David

Marriage, like baptism, is a sacrament. It is not a human-made social construct (in other words- people can say and do what they like regarding marriage outside of Christ's Holy Church- but they're wrong), but a God-made construct. To quote St. John Chrysostom, “From the beginning God in His providence has planned this union of man and woman…. There is no relationship between human beings so close as that of husband and wife." In marriage, one is called to reflect Christ and to be Christ-like toward their spouse. In other words, people are called to self-sacrifice and martyrdom- giving their all 100%- not just 50/50.

Your friends are fornicating, which is a sin. Excommunication is never meant to be permanent; their return to the chalice is always completely dependent upon the individual deciding to repent and turn from their sins. One is excommunicated for their own protection, as one who communes while being an unrepentant sinner is sinning against the body and blood of Christ and could die.

When your friends continue in sin, are excommunicated, and then are told they can return if they fix the situation by turning from their sin and repenting, then I don't see the issue.

All three are 100% correct.