Excellent Book

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm just reading through a great book called Dismantling SDA. It is a well research and referenced work on how the subversion of our faith was brought about.

Here's the link to the PDF file...

http://www.futurenews.ca/books/Dismantling-SDA.pdf

 

[Stryder06]

I'm currently reading a book called "The Omega Rebellion" and it's pretty good. The author is examining how spiritualism is sneaking into the adventist church.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm currently reading a book called "The Omega Rebellion" and it's pretty good. The author is examining how spiritualism is sneaking into the adventist church.

I read that a few months ago... good information in that book. When you're done, check out this one...

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

How far would the subversion have to go before you would decide you could not in good conscience stay in the church?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

How far would the subversion have to go before you would decide you could not in good conscience stay in the church?

That would be personal for each person to come to but for my wife and I, we stepped away from the conference 5 years ago after only being in the church a little over a year. We left because of the apostacy that we were witnessing and we were being dismissed when we brought our concerns to the leadership of the church. If we had a better understanding of Adventism and weren't so new in the faith, then I believe we should have stayed to warn others and to be a voice of truth to those in the church. But, we were still learning what Adventism was and had we stayed, we would not have been taught the truthes we have learned since leaving and being forced to do our own studying and relying fully on God for our training and not fall into the trap of blindly following the guy at the front.

Make no mistake, we left the conference, not Adventism. We have been fellowshiping online every since we left with like minded brethren and have been led into the pioneer understanding instead of the modernist understanding. I have thought about going back to the local church and after much prayer and preliminary searching, have determined that our best course is to stay away. To change even small entrenched practices within even a local congregation would be like me trying to go into my local Baptist church and convincing them of Sabbath sacredness... at least that is where I am at now. I don't know what the Lord has for me in the future and I will prayerfully try and heed His calling to go wheresoever He leads.

Sadly, the state of the understanding within te church of God's truth is such that the words of sister White are definitely going to come to pass... that the majority of SDA will be fall way from the faith when the shaking comes.

 

[Stryder06]

I read that a few months ago... good information in that book. When you're done, check out this one...

Will do. I think I heard someone mention that book at campmeeting this past sabbath. I was like "ECR said that was a good book. Gotta make sure I check it out"

 

[Stryder06]

How far would the subversion have to go before you would decide you could not in good conscience stay in the church?

By "stay in the church" do you mean the local adventist church, or the denomination as a whole?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I mean the General Conference.

 

[Princessdi]

ECR, I have a question, and you know you are alright by me and all. this is a serious question to which I want an honest answer for clarification, not for argument. what you say, you say, and that will be it.

You say that you are still learning about Adventism, yet you left your local church after one year...without a clear knowledge of what Adventism was............how could you identify what was apostasy?

That would be personal for each person to come to but for my wife and I, we stepped away from the conference 5 years ago after only being in the church a little over a year. We left because of the apostacy that we were witnessing and we were being dismissed when we brought our concerns to the leadership of the church. If we had a better understanding of Adventism and weren't so new in the faith, then I believe we should have stayed to warn others and to be a voice of truth to those in the church. But, we were still learning what Adventism was and had we stayed, we would not have been taught the truthes we have learned since leaving and being forced to do our own studying and relying fully on God for our training and not fall into the trap of blindly following the guy at the front.

Make no mistake, we left the conference, not Adventism. We have been fellowshiping online every since we left with like minded brethren and have been led into the pioneer understanding instead of the modernist understanding. I have thought about going back to the local church and after much prayer and preliminary searching, have determined that our best course is to stay away. To change even small entrenched practices within even a local congregation would be like me trying to go into my local Baptist church and convincing them of Sabbath sacredness... at least that is where I am at now. I don't know what the Lord has for me in the future and I will prayerfully try and heed His calling to go wheresoever He leads.

Sadly, the state of the understanding within te church of God's truth is such that the words of sister White are definitely going to come to pass... that the majority of SDA will be fall way from the faith when the shaking comes.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

ECR, I have a question, and you know you are alright by me and all. this is a serious question to which I want an honest answer for clarification, not for argument. what you say, you say, and that will be it.

You say that you are still learning about Adventism, yet you left your local church after one year...without a clear knowledge of what Adventism was............how could you identify what was apostasy?

For me, it was the combination of apostacy at the conference level i was learning about as well as observed apostacy at our local level. On the conference level was the incident with the church investing in the stock market and losing millions, that was disconcerting to me as part of my tithes were being gambled with. I have since come to recognize that, with the example of old woman and the two mites, it's not our burden what the church does with tithe, we are only responsible for our own faithfulness. However, at the time this was troubling to me. Then there was the movement that was persecuting brethren adn disfellowshipping them for disagreeing with official conference edicts. Once again, using tithe to pay lawyers to sue fellow believers was not what I was looking for in my church. Then there were smaller issues like being baptized into the denomination, which I could find no scriptural support for, the acceptance by the conference of the celebration services and other liberal teachings.

On a local level the use of alternative Bible versions which caused confusion among the congregation, the baptism of people that did not fully understand Adventisms beliefs, the celebration of christmas and easter including skits and/or plays in the churches sanctuary.

These issues were not what I knew Adventism was supposed to be so we chose to leave and be educated in the traditional vein by adhering to the pioneers understanding.

Had we stayed we would not have been educated properly... our pastor at the time gave a sermon entitled 'What Do You Think Heaven Is Going To Be Like?' he then proceeded to tell us that he hoped it would be like a baseball field as he loves baseball???? That was one of the last straws for us...

 

[Princessdi]

Well, that was surprising! Even more surprising I agree with most of what you are saying. The rest, you admit that you are learning and growing in the knowledge of God, and I believe you to be sincere. He will direct you.

 

[Stryder06]

I mean the General Conference.

In my opinion no one needs to leave the church no matter how far the subversion goes. God is in charge of cleaning house, and this is His house. Just like He did with Israel, God will take care of purging His church and separating the wheat from that tares.

 

[Cribstyl]

That would be personal for each person to come to but for my wife and I, we stepped away from the conference 5 years ago after only being in the church a little over a year. We left because of the apostacy that we were witnessing and we were being dismissed when we brought our concerns to the leadership of the church. If we had a better understanding of Adventism and weren't so new in the faith, then I believe we should have stayed to warn others and to be a voice of truth to those in the church. But, we were still learning what Adventism was and had we stayed, we would not have been taught the truthes we have learned since leaving and being forced to do our own studying and relying fully on God for our training and not fall into the trap of blindly following the guy at the front.

Make no mistake, we left the conference, not Adventism. We have been fellowshiping online every since we left with like minded brethren and have been led into the pioneer understanding instead of the modernist understanding. I have thought about going back to the local church and after much prayer and preliminary searching, have determined that our best course is to stay away. To change even small entrenched practices within even a local congregation would be like me trying to go into my local Baptist church and convincing them of Sabbath sacredness... at least that is where I am at now. I don't know what the Lord has for me in the future and I will prayerfully try and heed His calling to go wheresoever He leads.

Sadly, the state of the understanding within te church of God's truth is such that the words of sister White are definitely going to come to pass... that the majority of SDA will be fall way from the faith when the shaking comes.

Hmmmm, quite interesting. No wonder you're always attacking folk here at CF. You consider this your church home.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Hmmmm, quite interesting. No wonder you're always attacking folk here at CF. You consider this your church home.

No, you misunderstood the part of my testimony where I said I gather online with like minded brethren... I do this in a private chatroom and have been for the last five years.

 

[Pythons]

ECR, I'm not asking this to start a debate or discussion in which the accuracy of what you believe is tested...
...I am however interested in what your understanding is on the SDA Pioneer teaching on the "Personality of God".
...And how the General Conference has distanced itself from it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

ECR, I'm not asking this to start a debate or discussion in which the accuracy of what you believe is tested...
...I am however interested in what your understanding is on the SDA Pioneer teaching on the "Personality of God".
...And how the General Conference has distanced itself from it.

I'm not sure I understand your question... what do you mean by personality? Why don't you give me an idea by stating what your understanding of God's personality is?

 

[Pythons]

I'm not sure I understand your question... what do you mean by personality? Why don't you give me an idea by stating what your understanding of God's personality is?

In our times today when somone says so & so has a nice personality....
...The meaning is understood to be that the person is nice, good sense of humor, easy to be around, etc.

Everything I've read from the SDA Pioneers unequovically say the term "Personality of God" had a vastly different meaning...
...The meaning being that God the Father had a literal body, with eyes, ears, fingernails & even a "rectum".

According to both the Pioneers & Ellen White the Doctrine of the "Personality of God"....
...Was the single MOST important thing to the Seventh Day Adventists as a people.
...It was also stated to be the primary foundation of the Sanctuary teaching.

A while back I wrote the General Conference of SDA's on this question....
...But never got an answer back.

I've collected scores of articles published in the denominations publications about this but noticed they ceased.....
....Several years after the death of Ellen White.
....I even found some statements that indicated the internal power structure of SDA didn't want to talk about it any longer.

I was wondering why the General Conference would cease teaching what it had previously affirmed.....
...Was the foundation of one of it's most important doctrines.
...If you don't feel right talking about this here you are welcome to PM me.

 

[Stryder06]

In our times today when somone says so & so has a nice personality....
...The meaning is understood to be that the person is nice, good sense of humor, eas to be around, etc.

Everything I've read from the SDA Pioneers unequovically say the term "Personality of God" had a vastly different meaning...
...The meaning being that God the Father had a literal body, with eyes, ears, fingernails & even a "rectum".

According to both the Pioneers & Ellen White the Doctrine of the "Personality of God"....
...Was the single MOST important thing to the Seventh Day Adventists as a people.
...It was also stated to be the primary foundation of the Sanctuary teaching.

A while back I wrote the General Conference of SDA's on this question....
...But never got an answer back.

I've collected scores of articles published in the denominations publications about this but noticed they ceased.....
....Several years after the death of Ellen White.
....I even found some statements that indicated the internal power structure of SDA didn't want to talk about it any longer.

I was wondering why the General Conference would cease teaching what it had previously affirmed.....
...Was the foundation of one of it's most important doctrines.
...If you don't feel right talking about this here you are welcome to PM me.

Perhaps you could share some of your documentation?

Sr White said the following:

We need no fanciful teaching regarding the personality of God. What God desires us to know of Him is revealed in His word and His works. The beautiful things of nature reveal His character and His power as Creator. They are His gift to the race, to show His power, and to show that He is a God of love. But no one is authorized to say that God Himself in person is in flower or leaf or tree. These things are God’s handiwork, revealing His love for mankind. {CET 83.2}
Christ is the perfect revelation of God. Let those who desire to know God, study the work and teaching of Christ. To those who receive Him and believe on Him, He gives power to become the sons of God. {CET 83.3}

God saw that a clearer revelation than nature was needed to portray both His personality and His character. He sent His Son into the world to reveal, so far as could be endured by human sight, the nature and the attributes of the invisible God. {CCh 75.6}

Keep your eyes fixed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and by beholding Him you will be changed into His likeness. Talk not of these spiritualistic theories. Let them find no place in your mind. Let our papers be kept free from everything of the kind. Publish the truth; do not publish error. Do not try to explain in regard to the personality of God. You cannot give any further explanation than the Bible has given. Human theories regarding Him are good for nothing. Do not soil your minds by studying the misleading theories of the enemy. Labor to draw minds away from everything of this character. It will be better to keep these subjects out of our papers. Let the doctrines of present truth be put into our papers, but give no room to a repeating of erroneous theories.—Letter 179, 1904. {CW 93.4}

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Great quote Stryder....

Pythons, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time researching and trying to tear down our belief for just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill catholic fellow. Just what is your agenda or fascination with us?

 

[Pythons]

Great quote Stryder....

Pythons, you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time researching and trying to tear down our belief for just an ordinary, run-of-the-mill catholic fellow. Just what is your agenda or fascination with us?

That's not what this is ECR - I just noticed that you said you agreed with the Pioneer understanding on certain things....
....And wondered if that extended to the Pioneer doctrine of the Personality of God.

As for spending time looking at the beliefs of denominations other than my own I'm guessing I spend around the same time.....
....Looking at and speaking with the Mormons.
....Even had a couple live debates at Mormon steaks.

Stryder, do you really want me to post some of the articles I have collected?
...I'm not looking to rile anyone up here with this I was just curious if any SDA's who valued the SDA Pioneers positions.
...Accepted that same understanding on the Personality of God.