All born again Christians. This passage describes the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, a terrible fire judgement upon His enemies and how, at that time, He saves and delivers His people. He is not seen by all the world at this first event, only by believers in Him. Many other prophecies parallel this; Isaiah 10:17-22, Isaiah 29:19-21, Isaiah 30:26, Jeremiah 30:4-8, Ezekiel 34:12, Amos 9:8-12
That is just not what the bible says. It all happens together. There is no pulling these events apart! But you really should read the following novel!
I just remembered a fantastic trilogy I read by Aussie Sci-Fi author John Birmingham called
"After America." This weird energy wave sits over America, microwaving it. May as well be a CME. The premise seems to be that if something takes out the biggest bully in the playground, chaos reigns. It's a fantastic read - you should check it out! Great characters and adventure. And - even though it's a weird unexplained energy wave - it's somehow more
believable than any of your misguided speculations about Old Testament prophets who (mostly) have already been fulfilled by history!
Anyway - as I have shown you - the FIRE metaphor is intimately and inextricably connected to the visible return of the Lord, Judgement Day, and the NHNE. It's all the one thing!
This is a list of the "EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY" from the following verses so we can all quickly cross-reference what's happening in each passage. Then I list it all out below.
1 Thess 4: Called "Day of the Lord", said to happen in a time of "Peace, peace". Archangel, trumpet, dead rising, caught up in clouds, with Jesus forever, salvation and judgement: OK - no fire with that list. Yet.
2 Thess 1:4: Jesus revealed with angels, blazing fire, everlasting judgement, salvation. It's the same event - and the fire image is included in the Lord's visible return: Oh look! There's blazing fire when the Lord visibly returns!
Matthew 13:39: End of age, angels, harvest, weeds pulled up and burned, fire, salvation: Oh look! There's fire at the END OF THE AGE! That is - after the fire - we're in eternity.
Matt 25: End of age, angels, harvest, weeds pulled up and burned,
fire,
salvation.
And once again - just in case we missed it the first time!
I Cor 15: Trumpet (just as in Thessalonians!), imperishable = eternal, immortality, death gone, sin dealt with, in a flash - it is instantaneous. No Millennium. In other words - eternity and salvation and judgement all arrive at once - in an unpredictable instant.
2 Peter 3: Returning like a thief, fire = EVERYTHING being destroyed - and NHNE where righteousness dwells.
Misc verses from John: salvation and judgement come at the Last Day. That is - there's no more of this historical era - we move into eternity at the Last Day - when salvation and judgement come. There's no 'pre-judgment' and delayed salvation - they all come together.
2 Peter 3: Returning like a thief, fire = EVERYTHING being destroyed - and NHNE where righteousness dwells.
The final tally of Events and Images from these chapters? When the Lord visibly returns, it's Judgement Day. There is salvation and judgement, heaven and hell, dead are raised and we are transformed into eternity all in an instant as the NHNE are installed. BOOM!
There's just no long list of end-times events to unpack. It all happens together.
Now to unpack it all:
TWO AGES MODEL: There are only two ages in the New Testament - THIS AGE - and the AGE TO COME.
THIS AGE has marriage and children, Satan, sin, temptation, tears, sickness, ageing and death in a decaying universe - and Jesus reigning invisibly from heaven.
THE AGE TO COME has no marriage and no children, no Satan, no sin, no temptation, no tears, no sickness, no ageing and no death but is in an eternal universe with Jesus reigning VISIBLY with us forever.
Once you understand these 2 Ages - you can see that there is no way to reconcile some sort of intermediate state. Images about the coming Judgement Day are interwoven with various ingredients above. Jesus returns, the dead are raised and judged, sin is banished, the heavens and earth melt, the New Heavens and New Earth are installed, believers are saved into their eternal new home, and unbelievers are sent into punishment forever. All together - in a flash! There’s no time for a literal thousand years. I don’t think any one passage has all ingredients - because the apostles were writing to specific churches about certain immediate concerns - not a Systematic Theology or dry doctrinal statement. But that's what we are trying to do here in these conversations - put it all together. It is just so sad that - like in so many areas of life today - we feel such little respect for the experts. I know godly, professional theologians who have studied this material in depth, know the ancient languages and customs, and can actually DO a little hermeneutics! I respect them. I listen to them. I only know tiny hints and tips on these deep subjects from talking with them and reading their books. (I'm spoiled - until recently my church had a number of Phd's and bible college Professors who taught the next generation of ministers.)
Let’s have a look. Thessalonians 1 and 2 show that when Jesus returns there’s a trumpet, then eternal judgement AND eternal salvation start immediately. There’s no millennium, no separate rapture, it all happens together.
1 THESSALONIANS 4
“...For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."
RAPTURE: The image of being ‘caught up in the clouds’ means 2 things:-
CLOUD RIDER: We are with Jesus the ‘cloud rider’ - an ancient Old Testament contest between Yahweh and the Babylonian gods as to who was really God, and we are therefore safe ‘up there’ away from the judgement ‘down’ on the ground. It’s a bit like the image of Noah and family being safe ‘up’ in the ark - while the flood judges those left ‘down’ on the ground.
TRIUMPHANT KING: When a triumphant king returned from war, the citizens would rush out to meet them and celebrate and return to the city with them. Think of Jesus riding in to Jerusalem on a donkey and the crowds going nuts, throwing down palm branches! That’s what is also in mind as Paul writes that the dead will rise and then we also get lifted up to greet Jesus home. We’re cheering him on as he returns to fix this place once and for all!
DARKNESS: That we are not in darkness means we are living as children of the light in relationship to Jesus. It’s not about having secret knowledge of some silly end-times-table or date - as Jesus himself said HE did not know the date of That Day. (Matthew 24.) You can see that it’s about the character of our faith in the Lord, not our knowing a date, in the start of the next letter to the Thessalonians.
EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY: archangel, trumpet, dead rising, caught up in clouds, with Jesus forever, salvation and judgement.
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2 THESSALONIANS 1:4
“Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. 5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you."
EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY: Jesus revealed with angels, blazing fire, everlasting judgement, salvation. It's the same event - and the fire image is included in the Lord's visible return.
NOTE: There's no sense of God's enemies being 'left behind' here. People are either saved FOREVER or judged FOREVER. That's it. Also note - Jesus is REVEALED. There’s no secret fly-by here. Jesus is not going to “buzz” the tower - he’s going to tear it down and rebuild it and live in it!
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Matthew 13:39
“The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are ANGELS. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the END OF THE AGE. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY: End of age, angels, harvest, weeds pulled up and burned, fire, salvation.
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MATTHEW 25
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the ANGELS with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left... Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world... ...41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY: End of age, angels, harvest, weeds pulled up and burned, fire, salvation.
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JOHN
John 6:39 - see also 44, 54;
11:24 -
“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 12:49 - “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day”
EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY: Last day = both salvation and judgement.
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1 CORINTHIANS 15:50
“I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY: Trumpet (just as in Thessalonians!), imperishable = eternal, immortality, death gone, sin dealt with, in a flash - it is instantaneous. No Millennium.
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2 PETER 3
”Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”
EVENTS AND IMAGES TALLY: Returning like a thief (as in Matthew 24 on That Day), fire is EVERYTHING being destroyed - and NHNE where righteousness dwells.
There's just no separating out these events into separate things. They're all the one event because every verse above contains events or images from the others.
Conclusion: the Last Day (aka That Day or the Day of the Lord) all happens together, in an instant. May we be ready, and not disillusioned because some futurists among us drew up Science Fiction stories to lead us astray and make us doubt when they absolutely do not pan out!
