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Examining Calvinistic "Proof Texts"
- Thread starter TheSeabass
- Start date
Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
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Jack Terrence
Fighting the good fight
There are problems with the doctrine of free will. First, it is unbiblical. Second, neuro science had proven that free will is an illusion. We think that we are acting freely. But in reality we are not.
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bsd058
Sola and Tota Scripturist
If it hasn't already been pointed out yet...
"often would I have gathered thy children together" is a part of the lament of Christ which is cried out after Christ earlier said in the eight woes of the Pharisees:
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in." Matt 23:13.
I think the focus here is more upon the Jewish leaders not allowing the children of Jerusalem (those under the leaders) to come to him. They were always standing in the children's way.
Earlier, Christ taught:
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." Matt 23:1-4.
Again the focus is upon the burdens that the leadership is placing on the children of Jerusalem's back which stand in the way of them and God.
So when Jesus exclaims: "how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" he is saying that he would have Jerusalem's children, but Jerusalem would not have them [Jerusalem's children] be gathered by him." He's saying that Jerusalem (Pharisees and Scribes) is trying to prevent their people from entering the kingdom.
That's how I'm understanding it from the context.
Here's a video explaining further (this guy is better at explaining than I am, I'm sure):
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bsd058
Sola and Tota Scripturist
I'm not sure what you mean by "automatically" believe in Christ and be saved. It's not an arbitrary event whereby as soon as they hear the Word of God they believe. They hear the word of God but may not respond immediately. Perhaps it is a part of God's plan that they believe later in life and not immediately. If they are elect, then they eventually will respond though, because they were foreknown (fore-loved) by God. (Rom 8)
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If God predetermined before the world began that "Joe" would be one that would be saved, then would that make it 'automatic' that "Joe" would believe? Joe may not believe immediately but it is a certainty, ie automatic that he will believe.
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I think it is more between 1) does God unconditionally owe man justification or 2) does justification come conditionally through man's obedience to the will of God.
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bsd058
Sola and Tota Scripturist
I think this was a poor handling of the verse in its context. I'll quote the whole passage.
2 Peter 3:3-9 - Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The argument in this passage from the unbelievers is that God is not going to keep his promise because nothing has changed since the beginning of the universe. He promised, but he never comes or judges.
Peter responds that God is waiting because he is "patient toward YOU." The "you" in this passage refers to the ones being written to, namely believers. God's patience is toward his people, not willing that any of them should perish. So if this verse were regarding all men, then God would never come, because there will never be a time when all men be saved. Peter says that the reason God is waiting is for all to come to repentance. But since that cannot mean all men and the patience that God has is toward "you," the only way to take this verse is that God is waiting for his people to repent.
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So if God UNCONDTIONALLY elected me to be saved, then God has obligated Himself to save me, He UNCONDITIONALLY OWES me salvation independent and regardless of what I do.
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Romans 5:18 Paul's point here is that "ALL" who have been affected by sin since sin entered the world, then Christ has a remedy for that same "ALL". And it was not just SOME that have been affected by sin since it entered the world.
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Marvin Knox
Senior Veteran
The certainty of a fact does not make it's coming to past "automatic". God uses means to bring about what He has predestined to happen.
It may well be certain that I will die at age 80 while crossing the street outside of the crosswalk.
But the act which brings that predetermined state of affairs to past will be my stupidity or my senility.
It was certain that Christ would be crucified by the Jews and Romans. But it was not "automatic", It was brought to past by the evil acts of certain men at a certain time in history. They will answer for their own choices as will we (whether they were predestined to happen or not).
We (such as we are, having our being in God) make choices to preach or not preach the gospel and before we were saved to listen or not listen to the gospel when it was preached to us.
We are evidently not robots or computers - in spite of being created by the Word, for the Word and holding together in the Word of God.
God "owes" nothing to men.
Their election is unconditional and their justification is indeed conditional on their obedience to the will of God.
Their understanding and their willingness to obey God are brought about through God's activity in their life and whether or not He will so act is dependent on their election.
The first sentence is correct.
The second sentence is wrong in that God "owes" no one salvation not is salvation independent and regardless of what I do.
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