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Examining Calvinistic "Proof Texts"

hedrick

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It is not that I feel that they do not have free-will according to Calvinism, Calvinism's own documents and writings say irresistable grace that mankind who is saved us UNABLE to resist. You show me how anyone in Calvinist theology is able to resist Irresistable Grace. The name says it!

Sort of. The term "unable" can suggest that it's a matter of force. It's not so much that they're unable as that because God's grace removes stumbling blocks, they are now capable of faith, and that once restored in that way they inevitably come to faith.

It's clear that you're finding it hard to know who to believe. I'm going to quote the relevant section from the canons of Dordt. Canons of Dort. That's pretty much by definition a reliable definition of TULIP, since that's really where it came from:

"However, just as by the fall humans did not cease to be human, endowed with intellect and will, and just as sin, which has spread through the whole human race, did not abolish the nature of the human race but distorted and spiritually killed it, so also this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and—in a manner at once pleasing and powerful—bends it back.

"As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. In this the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, we would have no hope of getting up from our fall by our own free choice, by which we plunged ourselves into ruin when still standing upright."

This takes more or less the view that Augustine did: that the fall corrupted our will and grace renews it. It's not that God forces the reprobate to do bad things, but that with the fall they lost the ability, and there's no way to get it back without God's grace. Grace renews the will and allows us to follow Christ. I know you've heard a different approach. But there's a lot of unreliable information about Calvinism, much (though not all) of it from people who hate it.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Sort of. The term "unable" can suggest that it's a matter of force. It's not so much that they're unable as that because God's grace removes stumbling blocks, they are now capable of faith, and that once restored in that way they inevitably come to faith.
It is a matter of force, their beliefs.

If the Holy Spirit without any feedback from a person, regenerates that person without their knowing or their permission, than that is force. It is not God's grace as you indicate above, it is regeneration of that person by God Himself, the Holy Spirit.

You did not put that the Holy Spirit regenerates a person before they believe, which is one of the key points that non-Calivinists have an issue with.

Are you sure that you understand Calvinism?
 
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ToBeLoved

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I'm going to quote the relevant section from the canons of Dordt. Canons of Dort. That's pretty much by definition a reliable definition of TULIP, since that's really where it came from:

"However, just as by the fall humans did not cease to be human, endowed with intellect and will, and just as sin, which has spread through the whole human race, did not abolish the nature of the human race but distorted and spiritually killed it, so also this divine grace of regeneration does not act in people as if they were blocks and stones; nor does it abolish the will and its properties or coerce a reluctant will by force, but spiritually revives, heals, reforms, and—in a manner at once pleasing and powerful—bends it back.

"As a result, a ready and sincere obedience of the Spirit now begins to prevail where before the rebellion and resistance of the flesh were completely dominant. In this the true and spiritual restoration and freedom of our will consists. Thus, if the marvelous Maker of every good thing were not dealing with us, we would have no hope of getting up from our fall by our own free choice, by which we plunged ourselves into ruin when still standing upright."

This takes more or less the view that Augustine did: that the fall corrupted our will and grace renews it. It's not that God forces the reprobate to do bad things, but that with the fall they lost the ability, and there's no way to get it back without God's grace. Grace renews the will and allows us to follow Christ. I know you've heard a different approach. But there's a lot of unreliable information about Calvinism, much (though not all) of it from people who hate it.
I am not going to believe any man's understanding of the Bible if I have studied it and attended Bible-based churches for over 25 years. I have studied it thoroughly, I assure you.
 
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GillDouglas

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Although you would like to speak for non-Calvinists, since you are a Calvinist you do not know what we think.

Don't put words in our mouths. You speak your own beliefs. For some reason, you are so very off in your portrayal of non-Calvinist views and it is really annoying. Like you like to misrepresent us for your own theology to go down easier, like bad medicine. You can not guarantee anything that you do not believe yourself. Control is only on your beliefs, sorry, you can't control ours too. Free will and all that.
How unfair of you to attempt to limit me in my use of understanding of those, like you who are non Calvinist, in a reply not directed at you; when you are more than happy to express your opinions about Calvinists, and what we believe. I do not need to put any words in the mouths of any nondenominational Armenian types, I know exactly what they believe.

Folks like you imagine that God is moved by sentiment, rather than actuated by principle in accordance with His decrees. That His omnipotence is such that Satan and men are thwarting all of His designs unchecked. That if He had formed any plans or purposes at all, that they would constantly be subject to change based on the whims of Creation.

Folks like you imagine that if God had any power at all that it must be restricted unless He would invade the realm of man's "free will" and reduce him to a machine. You would reduce the all-efficacious atonement of Christ's death, which has actually redeemed everyone for whom it was intended for, to a mere "remedy" that when someone felt the notion, might decide to use it.
 
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Marvin Knox

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....You show me how anyone in Calvinist theology is able to resist Irresistable Grace. The name says it!
No one is able to resist grace in the enlightening sense.

That's why He says "all that the Father gives to me will come to me" and "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul". (John 6:37 and Acts 16:14)
So let's not put out words like 'as you say' because it is their own doctrine that condemns them and states there point very clearly....
By this I mean, if we have no free will, then Adam and Eve had no free will
You are the one who used the word "we" linking our condition with that of Adam and Eve. That is why I used "as you say" when using we in my statement about our present condition being like unto the fallen condition of Adam and Eve.

Now if you had used "we" in reference to our regenerated condition vis a vis Adam and Eve as originally created then I would have agreed with you.

You were apparently linking our fallen condition to that of Adam and Eve as originally created - which of course was wrong.

I'm going to some length to explain it because you don't seem to make understand that we are talking about Adam and Eve before and after the fall and you and I before and after regeneration.

Calvinist doctrine does not link our fallen sin bound will with that of Adam and Eve as originally created. You are simply dead wrong about that.
....I am getting really sick of all of you saying "I say ..." as in me, myself.
I have no idea where you are coming from there. I quoted where you yourself used the word "WE". That is why I said "as you say".



If they did not have the doctrine, we wouldn't be having the discussion and it is documented and NAMED, T.U.L.I.P.
They do have the doctrine. No one has said otherwise.

The Father's drawing and enlightening is ultimately irresistible as is clearly shown in the scriptures. That's not to say that there cannot be and will not be much resistance to the message along way as clearly shown in Paul's case where he kicked against the goads for some time before the Lord ultimately enlightened him.
I surely did not come up with that acronym and I surely did not come up with the words used that make up that acronym. So please stop that!!!!
There's nothing to stop.

You were simply mistaken in your response to my referring to your quote by saying "as you say". I trust we've got that straight now.
It is very unGodly to bear false witness. Purposely as you and others have been doing.
There is no false witness at all coming from me.

I agreed with something that you said about where Calvinists are wrong (post 42) and you responded with a comment about Calvinists not believing in personal faith and followed it by a question - which I then answered.

Then you started to get a bit nasty and I have no idea why except to note that you have done that before in the middle of a civil dialog and out of the clear blue.

Why can't you simply discuss things without venting your into emotions?:scratch:
 
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ToBeLoved

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How unfair of you to attempt to limit me in my use of understanding of those, like you who are non Calvinist, in a reply not directed at you; when you are more than happy to express your opinions about Calvinists, and what we believe. I do not need to put any words in the mouths of any nondenominational Armenian types, I know exactly what they believe.
.
No you don't because many people do not fall into a particular designation. There is not just Calvinist's and Armenian's there are a lot of people that are not a particular designation. That is what I am saying. If that makes you feel uncomfortable and you are offended, I'm sorry. But it doesn't make it not true.

So you do not know what they believe and I know that for a fact because you have mistated my beliefs many times.

Calvinism the points are written down and known. So anyone who says they are a Calvinist one can look at the points and see what they believe, but not with other designations. There are many mixes of people.
 
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GillDouglas

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No you don't because many people do not fall into a particular designation. There is not just Calvinist's and Armenian's there are a lot of people that are not a particular designation. That is what I am saying. If that makes you feel uncomfortable and you are offended, I'm sorry. But it doesn't make it not true.

So you do not know what they believe and I know that for a fact because you have mistated my beliefs many times.

Calvinism the points are written down and known. So anyone who says they are a Calvinist one can look at the points and see what they believe, but not with other designations. There are many mixes of people.
In regards to salvation there are only two camps: those that believe men are the masters of their own fate, and those that believe God is Supreme in all things.
 
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Marvin Knox

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....we both know that the indwelling Holy Spirit was not available until the New Covenant to permanently indwell a believer, so it is not possible that Adam and Eve were ever regenerated using Irresistable Grace.
Actually we know no such thing. Don't go beyond what is written.

For the record though - I said nothing about when Adam and Eve were regenerated, drawn, enlightened, filled, indwelled or in any other way acted upon by the Holy Spirit while in their fallen state.

But the clear teaching of the scriptures is that we must all be born again since we are spiritually dead. Exactly when they were regenerated has nothing to do with the conversation.
we have been through this so, so many times Marvin. I really wish you wouldn't keep rehashing this with me since you are not even a Calvinist.
We have to rehash it because you keep making the same misrepresentations about what Calvinists believe again and again.

Although I am not a full on 5-point Calvinist, I do hold to much their doctrine. When you misrepresent them you are misrepresenting me in some cases and only them do I engage on the subject.
It is a theological difference and I don't want to get crappy.
If by crappy you mean misrepresenting the other side and not standing corrected when it is pointed out to you - I don't want that either.

You often say what you think the implications of a particular Calvinist teaching are and say it in such a way that it misrepresents what they actually say.
 
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Thursday

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How unfair of you to attempt to limit me in my use of understanding of those, like you who are non Calvinist, in a reply not directed at you; when you are more than happy to express your opinions about Calvinists, and what we believe. I do not need to put any words in the mouths of any nondenominational Armenian types, I know exactly what they believe.

Folks like you imagine that God is moved by sentiment, rather than actuated by principle in accordance with His decrees. That His omnipotence is such that Satan and men are thwarting all of His designs unchecked. That if He had formed any plans or purposes at all, that they would constantly be subject to change based on the whims of Creation.

Folks like you imagine that if God had any power at all that it must be restricted unless He would invade the realm of man's "free will" and reduce him to a machine. You would reduce the all-efficacious atonement of Christ's death, which has actually redeemed everyone for whom it was intended for, to a mere "remedy" that when someone felt the notion, might decide to use it.



Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
 
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ToBeLoved

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In regards to salvation there are only two camps: those that believe men are the masters of their own fate, and those that believe God is Supreme in all things.
What does that have to do with Calvinist? or non-Calvinists?
 
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GillDouglas

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What does that have to do with Calvinist? or non-Calvinists?
The majority who lean Calvinist (sometimes called Reformed) mean to understand salvation in regards to God's and men's character as it is laid out in the Scripture. This is the basis of the TULIP doctrine you refer to frequently, one broad point broken down into five parts. In our study and understanding we have surrendered to the fact that God is the only Authority and has the Supreme right to rule over Creation, not the other way around.

If I may use a bit of analogy to further explain my point. This is God's story and we all have a part to play to bring glory to His name in one way or another, as designed by Him. This means that His guiding hands are always upon us, and as we exercise our free will we do so within the confines of our story-line.
 
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Thursday

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The majority who lean Calvinist (sometimes called Reformed) mean to understand salvation in regards to God's and men's character as it is laid out in the Scripture. This is the basis of the TULIP doctrine you refer to frequently, one broad point broken down into five parts. In our study and understanding we have surrendered to the fact that God is the only Authority and has the Supreme right to rule over Creation, not the other way around.

If I may use a bit of analogy to further explain my point. This is God's story and we all have a part to play to bring glory to His name in one way or another, as designed by Him. This means that His guiding hands are always upon us, and as we exercise our free will we do so within the confines of our story-line.


A man reaps what he sows. God wants you to follow his will, and he gives you the grace to do it. What will you do?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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There are two types of people in the world, those who are seeking to justify themselves and those who are trusting in the justification which Christ has provided them.

That is what's at the heart of this debate.
 
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hedrick

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I am not going to believe any man's understanding of the Bible if I have studied it and attended Bible-based churches for over 25 years. I have studied it thoroughly, I assure you.
I didn't expect you to believe Dordt's theology. I just expected you to believe that what it said was a correct explanation of Calvinism.
 
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