Ex gentile? All must be Torah observant

Truthfrees

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Well, you can start by not a) putting us and our people on a pedestal, and by b) allowing us the freedom to express ourselves in ways that do not conform to your stereotypes. :)

Let me explain. This will take some time...please be patient and perhaps go and get a cup of tea before reading further.

.....ok...now you're back..

The people here raised in Judaism will have a fairly similar experience and I speak on behalf of them with respect that each of us will have a differing history.

Being raised Jewish is being raised with a set of cultural opinions, traditions and prejudices all unique to the Jewish people. For some of us, it is reasonably liberal and for others it's basically brainwashing. Whether one is raised freely or strictly controlled, being Jewish is the central tenet of one's life. That's what seems the most important thing to your parents- that we're Jews. What that means is that things others take for granted like going to a BBQ with non-Jewish people becomes a massive source of guilt for some of us. Multiply that by 100 if you are romantically attracted to a non-Jewish person. You can feel guilty about a lot of things, actually. Especially anything not approved of by rabbis or parents. It's actually very unhealthy in my experience. I have neurotic anxieties to this day over this stuff.

Then along comes Jesus. He's not Yeshua and never was to you. That's the name you heard about for Him and He was always Jesus and now you've met Him. You are taken up by Jesus and He becomes the center of your life. You feel you are a new creation. You have a new heart, new motives and want to follow Him. You get baptized by the Church. You experience kindness, acceptance, teachings that fill your heart and mind and you begin that new life in the Church. Christians are mostly good people and you see a real difference in their hearts from those who are not. You study hard to get the full gamut of this new faith. It takes work and can be painful.

Life is fine.

Then you meet your first group of hyper-Israel-pro-Jewish-love-the-Jews Christians. They might be Messianic. They speak English. They are from a non-Jewish background. They are terrific people but a little draining. They want to know everything about Judaism. You do your best to help. But for some reason they call Jesus "Yeshua", thinking that somehow that's what you should call Him too. For some reason they keep the Sabbath and want to do it the way your family does. They want to build a sukkah even though their nation didn't have to wander in the desert fleeing Egypt. You guess that's ok too. They are lovely people- but you soon realize that they don't know much about Christianity and it puzzles you why they don't spend time and energy on that first. Then you raise the point...and regret it.

You soon realize that for some of them at least, the things you discovered as wonderful and spiritually transformative and which cost you personally quite a lot to adopt, they hate. They hate the name "Jesus". They hate the Church. They hate Holy Communion. They hate celebrating the life of Jesus in the Church's holy days. You realize their religion is not the one you came to but a strange spin on what you left behind. Jewish-ism.

But you cannot speak of it. You will be corrected if you do. And worst of all- if you don't live the life you left behind and do and walk and talk the way they think a Jew should- well, you're not Jewish enough for them! The non-Jew sits in judgment over your lack of being Jewish. 500 years ago they wanted you to be acting like a non-Jew, but now they say you're not Jewish enough unless Jesus is Yeshua and the Torah is, well, almost Adonai.

They completely reject your first hand experience in Judaism. You watch in vain and with a saddened heart as they try to get the fulness of the Spirit by making an attempt at adopting Judaism- the most complicated and muddied interpretation of the Torah possible. You marvel at their preaching against the things that made sense out of your guilt-ridden life in Judaism- Jesus, the Church, love, grace alone, faith alone, Jesus alone. You ponder why they preach all the easy stuff in the Torah as binding but avoid the tough stuff, or adopt a rabbinic practice but not a Torah one. Keep the Jewish holidays, but not circumcision. Speak in tongues, but reject tefillin. Don't eat a cheeseburger, but wear mixed clothing. Wear a kippa but not a tallit katan. Celebrate the fun holidays, but don't slaughter the animals or stone people for sins. Keep the Sabbath, but can't recite the decalogue with understanding, if at all. Strain a gnat but swallow a camel. We're back to square one.

You, OTOH, have never given up tefillin, tallitot, shabbat, moedim and even cover your head every day. But when you tell them that those things don't seem to be doing them much good- you're labeled "non observant" or "anti-Torah" and voila- you're not Jewish enough again. You're not the "true" Messianic Jew, they are. Even though you're the observant Messianic Jew in the conversation.

It's hurtful when you come to this forum and see the same. I know from private correspondence that most of those born Jewish on this forum feel rather ostracized and even sense a form of anti-semitism here. At worst we've been crushed by the judgement on our new life in Christ and some feel like we've even been loved to death.

You feel as though they want to steal away your new life in Christ and His people ("One New Man") and make you act like an observant Jackie Mason or a Hasidic Rebbe who found Yeshua. Play Jewish or get out. Just don't be yourself.

Don't love us because we are Jewish- love us for who we are, and respect what we've been forced to leave behind and most of all rejoice with us in the new life we have in Christ and His church (or Yeshua and His whatever if that floats your jingo boat!)
Wow! I'm going to have to read this a few times to understand the fullness of what you're saying.

I wouldn't have known any of this without your explanation, and I don't fully understand all of this with one reading.

I'll have questions later when I get more of what you've said.

Thank you. This is an excellent post!

One question now is what do you mean by putting Jews on a pedestal?

How do we do that?

What can we stop doing in that regard?

I have other questions on the other points you raised but I need to read your post several times to see if I can find the answers already in your post.
 
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Dave-W

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"Gentile" refers to someone who is a foreigner or heathen,
Not so. Gentile = not Jewish. Period. Christian believers are STILL Gentiles.
 
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Dave-W

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I'm not Jewish, but I'm no longer a Gentile either.
The only other options are non-existent and dead. I do not believe you fit either of those so you have to be one or the other.
Again choose not to discuss because it's elementary. Like I said everyone in the world knows what a Jew is.
There are those with a certain political/theological axe to grind over the terms "Israel," "Jew" and "gentile." They seek to redefine those according to their own agendae.
 
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Dave-W

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What happens when the other tribes return and want to be called by their rightful tribes?
They are all Jews. If/when they come back, they will take their place alongside the remnants of the Southern Tribes, aka Judah. "Jews."
It is no different than the Levites and Kohenim today who know they are of Levi but are still called "Jews." Even Saul/Paul was of Benjamin but identified as a Jew.


The ONLY way some one can become an "Ex-gentile" is to undergo a formal conversion to Judaism. And that is fraught with all kinds of problems for a New Covenant believer.
 
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Soyeong

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Not so. Gentile = not Jewish. Period. Christian believers are STILL Gentiles.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1482.htm

ethnikos: national, foreign, i.e. spec. a Gentile
Original Word: ἐθνικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: ethnikos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth-nee-kos')
Short Definition: pagan, heathen, gentile; a Gentile, non-Jew
Definition: pagan, heathen, gentile; subst: a Gentile, non-Jew.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1482 ethnikós(from 1484/éthnos, "nation") – Gentile; heathen, usually referring to non-Israelites; apagan, a "non-covenant person," standing outside God's covenant (salvation). See 1484 (ethnos).

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from ethnos
Definition
national, foreign, i.e. spec. a Gentile


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1482: ἐθνικός

ἐθνικός, ἐθνικη, ἐθνικον (ethnos);
1. adapted to the genius or customs of a people, peculiar to a people, national: Polybius, Diodorus, others.

2. suited to the manners or language of foreigners, strange, foreign; so in the grammarians (cf. our 'gentile'].

3. in the N. T. savoring of the nature of pagans, alien to the worship of the true God, heathenish; substantively,ὁ ἐθνικός, the pagan, the Gentile: Matthew 18:17; plural, Matthew 5:47 G L T Tr WH; ; and 3 John 1:7 L T TrWH.
 
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Dave-W

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Soyeong - you are correct in as far as those definitions go.

But; NOWHERE in scripture is there anyone described as a non-Israelite (aka Jew) AND a non-gentile. It just does not exist. You are either one or the other. And the Israelites/Jews have the right to define themselves as they wish.

Several times in Romans Paul uses the phrase: to the Jew first and also to the Greek (or gentile). This is describing BELIEVERS. Not pagans. "Gentile" does not necessarily indicate pagan.
 
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Soyeong

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Soyeong - you are correct in as far as those definitions go.

But; NOWHERE in scripture is there anyone described as a non-Israelite (aka Jew) AND a non-gentile. It just does not exist. You are either one or the other. And the Israelites/Jews have the right to define themselves as they wish.

Several times in Romans Paul uses the phrase: to the Jew first and also to the Greek (or gentile). This is describing BELIEVERS. Not pagans. "Gentile" does not necessarily indicate pagan.

I think you meant to say described as an Israelite and a non-Gentile, but I'm don't think that an Israelite equals a Jew.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Verse 12 lists things that are part of the definition of a Gentile, but in verse 19, all of those things are no longer true. So it seems to me that there is a category of people who are now fellow citizens of Israel, part of God's chosen people, who are not Jews, but who are also no longer Gentiles. When the Gospel goes out to the Jew first, then the Gentiles, there is then the issue of what the identity now is of those who accept the Gospel by faith in Messiah.
 
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Dave-W

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Verse 12 lists things that are part of the definition of a Gentile,
I do not take that in that way. He is describing his readers, not gentiles in general.

Did Cornelius fit that description? Was he not called a gentile?
 
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Soyeong

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I do not take that in that way. He is describing his readers, not gentiles in general.

Did Cornelius fit that description? Was he not called a gentile?

Before Messiah, everything in verse 12 was true of Gentiles in general, and thus true of his readers. If a number of things that are true of Gentiles in general are no longer true about his readers, then it no longer fits to describe them as Gentiles, even if some of the things are still true, like not being a Jew. Cornelius was going through the process of becoming a Jewish proselyte, so he certainly was a Gentile, but I don't think he still qualified as one after the Holy Spirit was poured out on him. Sometimes it is used to say that someone is from the nations, which is describing their origin rather than their present state, which would make "ex-Gentile" appropriate.
 
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big macher

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Before Messiah, everything in verse 12 was true of Gentiles in general, and thus true of his readers. If a number of things that are true of Gentiles in general are no longer true about his readers, then it no longer fits to describe them as Gentiles, even if some of the things are still true, like not being a Jew. Cornelius was going through the process of becoming a Jewish proselyte, so he certainly was a Gentile, but I don't think he still qualified as one after the Holy Spirit was poured out on him. Sometimes it is used to say that someone is from the nations, which is describing their origin rather than their present state, which would make "ex-Gentile" appropriate.

Cornelius was going through the process of becoming a proselyte?
 
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Soyeong

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Cornelius was going through the process of becoming a proselyte?

Indeed. Before Acts 10 or before Jesus, there was no cognitive dissonance between being a follower of God and following His commands. There was no one who was teaching Jews not to obey God's commands and only examples of people defending themselves against false accusations or rumors of doing so, so for about 10 years after Messiah's ascension at least up through Acts 10, all Christians were Torah observant Jews or Jewish proselytes. That was the one option Gentiles had available to them, so if they were God-fearers, then they were being taught by Jews how to worship Him and how to follow His commands according to their traditions. When they were ready, then they could finish the process of by going through circumcision, baptism, and by offering a sacrifice. Cornelius had been taught by them to offer alms how to pray, and don't think it was a coincidence that he was praying at the same time as the Temple prayers, when all Jews were also praying. With the outpouring of the Spirit, it then became an issue in Acts 15 whether they still had to become Jewish proselytes and keep the law according to their traditions.
 
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pat34lee

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They are all Jews. If/when they come back, they will take their place alongside the remnants of the Southern Tribes, aka Judah. "Jews."
It is no different than the Levites and Kohenim today who know they are of Levi but are still called "Jews." Even Saul/Paul was of Benjamin but identified as a Jew.

Judah has always been protector of Benjamin, and the Levites were
spread through both kingdoms. I don't think Asher, Dan, Gad and the
others will be willing to give up their identity once they get it back.
 
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mercy1061

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I think you meant to say described as an Israelite and a non-Gentile, but I'm don't think that an Israelite equals a Jew.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Verse 12 lists things that are part of the definition of a Gentile, but in verse 19, all of those things are no longer true. So it seems to me that there is a category of people who are now fellow citizens of Israel, part of God's chosen people, who are not Jews, but who are also no longer Gentiles. When the Gospel goes out to the Jew first, then the Gentiles, there is then the issue of what the identity now is of those who accept the Gospel by faith in Messiah.
Let's be honest. Do gentiles gain "true" citizenship in Israel today? From what I understand, even those, who claim to be Jews have much difficulty obtaining citizenship in Israel.
 
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pat34lee

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Let's be honest. Do gentiles gain "true" citizenship in Israel today? From what I understand, even those, who claim to be Jews have much difficulty obtaining citizenship in Israel.

I wouldn't worry too much about today. When the Northern
Kingdom returns, it won't be up for debate. Only Yahweh can
decide who goes with what tribe.
 
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Hoshiyya

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I fear that there may be discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
2 Corinthians 12:20

shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 2:9

It's been a while since I saw a meaningful debate on this forum. Usually, what I see is people "correcting" each other, without any party involved even pretending to think they will convince the other party.
 
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mercy1061

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Those who agree with you already agree, those who don't will certainly not be convinced.
Do you have any thoughts related to the topic? I think the Torah allows every man the freedom or liberty to agree or disagree. We all know Israel was one nation under King David , tribe of Judah, one kingdom.
 
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mercy1061

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Soyeong - you are correct in as far as those definitions go.

But; NOWHERE in scripture is there anyone described as a non-Israelite (aka Jew) AND a non-gentile. It just does not exist. You are either one or the other. And the Israelites/Jews have the right to define themselves as they wish.

Several times in Romans Paul uses the phrase: to the Jew first and also to the Greek (or gentile). This is describing BELIEVERS. Not pagans. "Gentile" does not necessarily indicate pagan.
Amen!
 
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ContraMundum

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One question now is what do you mean by putting Jews on a pedestal?

How do we do that?

What can we stop doing in that regard?

Well, good question. An example might be that when a Jewish person visits your church, don't give them preferential treatment nor mention their background at every opportunity.

An example of this happened to me just last week. I was guest speaker at a pro-Israel Evangelical Church and I was introduced as a man from a Jewish background. I actually think that's all they heard because after my message all I got asked about was "what's it like being Jewish?" and "did your family have a funeral for you when you got saved?" and stuff like that. I had prepared the message for a week and it seemed like a waste of time. I could have talked about computer components and book binding and I don't think anyone would have noticed. I felt like my being Jewish was more important than my ordination to them. I honestly don't see the big deal because I am a "One New Man" believer, as I have stated on many occasions on this forum (again, ignored)

I have other questions on the other points you raised but I need to read your post several times to see if I can find the answers already in your post.

I look forward to it.
 
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