Ex-Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic

[vanshan]

What should we make of this man? A large number of Serbs, apparently, consider him a hero. He was extradited to the Netherlands to face trial for war crimes and genocide, but was his efforts to stop the spread of Islam a just war? If you know much about how the Muslims have treated the Christians and our holy places there, it's seems like this could be a "just war." The Orthodox people and their way of life has been threatened. Hasn't the U.S. acted in similar ways in the past to protect our freedoms?

Basil

 

[NewToLife]

What should we make of this man? A large number of Serbs, apparently, consider him a hero. He was extradited to the Netherlands to face trial for war crimes and genocide, but was his efforts to stop the spread of Islam a just war? If you know much about how the Muslims have treated the Christians and our holy places there, it's seems like this could be a "just war." The Orthodox people and their way of life has been threatened. Hasn't the U.S. acted in similar ways in the past to protect our freedoms?

Basil

The concept of a just war is I think debatable within Orthodoxy, even if that were not so I think it would be impossible to justify what this man is accused of on such grounds anyway. I think you have a point that other groups have certainly acted in similar ways throughout history yet if a thing is wrong it is wrong no matter who approves or has in the past approved.

I don't think we should convict him in the court of public opinion if it is avoidable, though I accept it probably isnt and that the trial is probably more about justice being seen to be done than about justice actually being done.

 

[Matrona]

I don't think it's at all appropriate to turn this guy into some kind of hero. He is accused of abominable crimes. If he somehow turns out to be innocent, that would be nice, but if he really did order those massacres and rapes, he absolutely must be subjected to the appropriate civil penalties.

 

[vanshan]

Committing some of the evils he's accused of go beyond defending the homeland against the forces trying to break it apart, but can we defend ourselves from our enemies, or should we allow any group to move in and destroy us without a fight--that is, should we turn our cheeks on a national scale? Would we allow a Muslim takeover of parts of the U.S.?

I should probably study more about the history of the Muslims in the area, but I've read horrible reports about the destruction of monasteries, churches, and other holy sites by the Muslims who have migrated there.

Basil

 

[Komnenos]

Committing some of the evils he's accused of go beyond defending the homeland against the forces trying to break it apart, but can we defend ourselves from our enemies, or should we allow any group to move in and destroy us without a fight--that is, should we turn our cheeks on a national scale? Would we allow a Muslim takeover of parts of the U.S.?

I should probably study more about the history of the Muslims in the area, but I've read horrible reports about the destruction of monasteries, churches, and other holy sites by the Muslims who have migrated there.

Basil

Yes, Albanian and Bosnian Muslims have destroyed some churches and Monasteries in Serbia and Kosovo. Nothing justifies genocide however. Is it right to destroy Muslim places for revenge? No, revenge is contrary to Orthodoxy. Yes, we can defend ourselves when attacked, but we should not commit Genocide to do so. The USA in the middle East is trying to do good, not trying to conquer or kill. If the Insurgents would stop fighting, we wouldn't have to kill.

 

[Mikeb85]

Yes, Albanian and Bosnian Muslims have destroyed some churches and Monasteries in Serbia and Kosovo. Nothing justifies genocide however. Is it right to destroy Muslim places for revenge? No, revenge is contrary to Orthodoxy. Yes, we can defend ourselves when attacked, but we should not commit Genocide to do so. The USA in the middle East is trying to do good, not trying to conquer or kill. If the Insurgents would stop fighting, we wouldn't have to kill.

Really.... Don't get me started on that. The USA's past and current policies in the middle east would lead me to believe otherwise...

Anyhow, back on topic, I think the real question here is what is justifiable in a war.

 

[Andrew21091]

I've read and heard first hand experiences of some of the terrible things that many went through in that war. I don't think this guy should be considered a hero because he massacred a bunch of Muslims because if we accepted the mass killing of people then how would that make us any different from the Muslims who have massacred the Orthodox for centuries. We can't call them barbarians if we are willing to do the same to them.

 

[Komnenos]

Really.... Don't get me started on that. The USA's past and current policies in the middle east would lead me to believe otherwise...

Anyhow, back on topic, I think the real question here is what is justifiable in a war.

Yes really, In Turkey I knew plenty of Iraqi refugees who were thankful to the USA and hated the insurgents. In fact the only reason they left was because the Insurgents made Iraq what it is. Many have since returned because of the progress the coalition military is making.

back on topic.

Massacres and mass rapes are definitely NOT justifiable in war.

 

[Thekla]

If its ok, I don't wish to comment on the particular events and history here; I really don't feel that I know enough.

But I have noted what seems to be a fairly conistent pattern that may apply. Existing tensions are encouraged or exploited -- the resulting oppression or perception of it tends to gut and or radicalize more moderate positions resulting in horror. This does not justify such events, but suggests that blame may be more broadly assigned.

 

[prodromos]

While Karadzic has indeed been accused of 'genocide', this was nothing more than to provide a basis for US and NATO intervention. People commiting genocide do not evacuate women and children of the people they are supposedly trying to wipe out. Nor have the widely reported mass graves ever turned up despite access to detailed satellite imagery. Mass graves which have been found have been a mix of both Christian and Muslim Serb soldiers (mostly in uniform) with few civilian casulties, nothing like we were led to expect.

Please read the following articles for a better understanding of the background of the aforementioned accusations.

http://www.antiwar.com/malic/?articleid=6275
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID=002D5A77-152F-4FFC-B374-6B923B07EF21

I was living in Greece when all of this was going down. We were receiving reports directly from accross the border and I have to tell you that it was completely at odds with what CNN was reporting, so much so that it sickened us. One of our friends had their parents come visit them from the UK. When they arrived they were strongly against the Serbs based on what they had been led to believe by the news reports in England. Half an hour of watching the news in Greece however, and they stated categorically that they were now ashamed to be called British citizens, so shocked were they at the vast disparity between what was actually happening and what the Western media had led them to believe.

Unfortunately few people are any wiser today and it seems that all the old anti Serbian propaganda is simply being regurgitated on Karadzic's arrest. Take everthing which you have heard so far with a grain of salt and keep in mind the desire to pipe oil across the Balkans from the Caspian Sea probably plays a large role in US policy in the Balkans.

John

 

[Annoula]

Can the US and the world take a look in other parts of the world... Africa for example...
Karadzic is not the only bad guy on the planet.. there may be worse guys around...

i strongly believe that the media are guiding us to whatever they want to promote...
it's a pity...

 

[Mikeb85]

Yes really, In Turkey I knew plenty of Iraqi refugees who were thankful to the USA and hated the insurgents. In fact the only reason they left was because the Insurgents made Iraq what it is. Many have since returned because of the progress the coalition military is making.

back on topic.

Massacres and mass rapes are definitely NOT justifiable in war.

I don't wish to argue, so I'll only say this - the USA's involvement in the middle east goes back much further than this current war. They've supported and propped up numerous dictators to pursue their policies (at one point Saddam was a key US ally). I find it hard to believe that they'd choose now to suddenly become humanitarians...

As for the original topic - first of all, I'm looking at the charges against Karadzic, I don't see anything about mass rapes. As for massacres - during wartime, people get killed. Whether or not it's justified, I guess that's the question. And finally - we all know Karadzic won't get a fair trial. So I really doubt this will answer any questions...

 

[vanshan]

Yes, Albanian and Bosnian Muslims have destroyed some churches and Monasteries in Serbia and Kosovo. Nothing justifies genocide however. Is it right to destroy Muslim places for revenge? No, revenge is contrary to Orthodoxy. Yes, we can defend ourselves when attacked, but we should not commit Genocide to do so. The USA in the middle East is trying to do good, not trying to conquer or kill. If the Insurgents would stop fighting, we wouldn't have to kill.

History, and current events, seem to indicate that the other side will not fight as fairly as you'd recommend we do, putting our people at a grave disadvantage.

Lord have mercy.

Basil

 

[vanshan]

I had been somewhat patriotic in the past, but as I've watched American foreign policy played out over the past couple of decades, I've become cynical. It's all about money, plain and simple. Follow the money, and you'll see why we get involved in some areas, while ignoring even greater genocide and threats in other places. We aren't acting on our ideals, we are acting in a way which is politically beneficial and expedient for us--or at least the government imagines this is the case.

Basil

 

[seashale76]

I has been somewhat patriotic in the past, but as I've watched American foreign policy played out over the past couple of decades, I've become cynical. It's all about money, plain and simple. Follow the money, and you'll see why we get involved in some areas, while ignoring even greater genocide and threats in other places. We aren't acting on our ideals, we are acting in a way which is politically beneficial and expedient for us--or at least the government imagines this is the case.

Basil

I have unfortunately come to the same conclusion.

 

[seashale76]

While Karadzic has indeed been accused of 'genocide', this was nothing more than to provide a basis for US and NATO intervention. People commiting genocide do not evacuate women and children of the people they are supposedly trying to wipe out. Nor have the widely reported mass graves ever turned up despite access to detailed satellite imagery. Mass graves which have been found have been a mix of both Christian and Muslim Serb soldiers (mostly in uniform) with few civilian casulties, nothing like we were led to expect.

Please read the following articles for a better understanding of the background of the aforementioned accusations.

http://www.antiwar.com/malic/?articleid=6275
http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID=002D5A77-152F-4FFC-B374-6B923B07EF21

I was living in Greece when all of this was going down. We were receiving reports directly from accross the border and I have to tell you that it was completely at odds with what CNN was reporting, so much so that it sickened us. One of our friends had their parents come visit them from the UK. When they arrived they were strongly against the Serbs based on what they had been led to believe by the news reports in England. Half an hour of watching the news in Greece however, and they stated categorically that they were now ashamed to be called British citizens, so shocked were they at the vast disparity between what was actually happening and what the Western media had led them to believe.

Unfortunately few people are any wiser today and it seems that all the old anti Serbian propaganda is simply being regurgitated on Karadzic's arrest. Take everthing which you have heard so far with a grain of salt and keep in mind the desire to pipe oil across the Balkans from the Caspian Sea probably plays a large role in US policy in the Balkans.

John

I'm not at all surprised. The media is, and always has been, a propaganda tool.


As a generic example: I read various news sources from the UK and (while the US is certainly not angelic in any sense) one who lives here in the US wouldn't recognize their country from what is being said about it (usually all negative propaganda that takes the truth and twists it around). Apparently everyone here in the US are too dumb to even dress and feed ourselves and we're are all prone to blood-lust because of an irrational belief in God. The BBC goes out of its way to promote this view at least once a week, if not more, if they are lacking in any real news to report. That people buy everything they're told without question, is tragic, and it is harder to see when you're closer to it. US news also promotes things in a distorted way, but we tend to want to believe that we can watch CNN and Fox News and somehow garner the actual facts from it.

 

[Hoankan]

Thread has been moved to St. Justin Martyr's Corner due to debating.

 

[prodromos]

Debating?

 

[Thekla]

at least open again

so I can say this now: regardless of the particular "low-level" bias our media may exhibit, their loudest and most dangerous bias (and it undermines democracy) is what they do not report.

 

[Komnenos]

I don't wish to argue, so I'll only say this - the USA's involvement in the middle east goes back much further than this current war. They've supported and propped up numerous dictators to pursue their policies (at one point Saddam was a key US ally). I find it hard to believe that they'd choose now to suddenly become humanitarians...

As for the original topic - first of all, I'm looking at the charges against Karadzic, I don't see anything about mass rapes. As for massacres - during wartime, people get killed. Whether or not it's justified, I guess that's the question. And finally - we all know Karadzic won't get a fair trial. So I really doubt this will answer any questions...

Your right, I'm confusing the mass rapes with someone else. You may take a cynical view, but I believe in what is good in people. No country is perfect.