EV's in deep freeze

[rockytopva]

ev's in deep freeze - Google Search

Tesla owners discover the cold, hard truth about EVs

Not all batteries like subzero temperatures

www.theregister.com

 

[rockytopva]

tesla charging cold weather - Google Search

 

[Tuur]

Interesting problem: The batteries seem to have to be brought up to a certain temperature in order to rapid charge them. But some of the article implies there is no power at these charging stations. If it's the former problem, then it's interesting that the Tesla or charging stations cannot bring the batteries up to temperature in this kind of cold.

 

[Nithavela]

I plan on getting an EV next, but we have a garage where temperatures never dip below freezing, and where a charger of our own can be installed. I also don't plan on making any long range trips, so there's that.

 

[GDL]

They're fun to drive. Some of the interior designs are really a piece of art. More and more the truth comes out about the problems with the technology including how much power they truly consume and how non "green" it is. We may replace a vehicle next year and are watching the pluses and minuses. Like @Nithavela we have some of the same things in mind. To be able to plug in at night and avoid the gas station routine seems a plus. But the state of the gas and hybrid technologies are pretty refined these days and we don't want to trade no problems for problems.

 

[Freth]

Since I live in an apartment I have no way to plug in an electric vehicle. I would have to make time to visit charging stations to keep an electric vehicle charged. As I write this the temperature is 12°f, which wouldn't be good on an electric vehicle.

I currently own two gas engine vehicles. I'm considering changing to a Prius for better mileage. The biggest consideration for me with a hybrid is battery replacement cost. A Prius costs $4-5k for a dealership to replace the battery, or you can do it yourself for around $2k. That's every 8-10 years.

The other option I'm considering is a gas engine economy car instead of a hybrid. Something inexpensive.

 

[Nithavela]

They're fun to drive. Some of the interior designs are really a piece of art. More and more the truth comes out about the problems with the technology including how much power they truly consume and how non "green" it is. We may replace a vehicle next year and are watching the pluses and minuses. Like @Nithavela we have some of the same things in mind. To be able to plug in at night and avoid the gas station routine seems a plus. But the state of the gas and hybrid technologies are pretty refined these days and we don't want to trade no problems for problems.

I also think that EVs still have a long way to go. For example, there are prototypes for swappable batteries for EVs. You drive your cart into a port and it pulls out the drained battery and pushes in a fresh one, and the drained battery gets charged for the next car. For smaller cars, there are hand-changeable batteries.

This alone would solve a lot of issues when adopted.

But Tesla appears to be rubbish. To hard to repair, to many awkward features and design choices, not to mention the fact that its too expensive. The chinese car industry seems to have the hang of it when producing small, cheap EVs.

 

[wing2000]

Interesting problem: The batteries seem to have to be brought up to a certain temperature in order to rapid charge them. But some of the article implies there is no power at these charging stations. If it's the former problem, then it's interesting that the Tesla or charging stations cannot bring the batteries up to temperature in this kind of cold.

Yes, I was wondering how much of this issue is caused by Tesla drivers not "pre-conditioning" the battery for optimum charging while parking their car's in sub-zero weather conditions.

Noting that Norway drivers, a cold country with over 90% EV adoption rate for new cars, must be doing something right....

https://www.fastcompany.com/91011373/evs-work-fine-in-the-cold-in-norway-heres-how-they-do-it#:~:text=Norway%2C%20which%20tested%20how%20the,which%20were%20full%20electric%20vehicles).

 

[Tuur]

Yes, I was wondering how much of this issue is caused by Tesla drivers not "pre-conditioning" the battery for optimum charging while parking their car's in sub-zero weather conditions.

Noting that Norway drivers, a cold country with over 90% EV adoption rate for new cars, must be doing something right....

https://www.fastcompany.com/91011373/evs-work-fine-in-the-cold-in-norway-heres-how-they-do-it#:~:text=Norway%2C%20which%20tested%20how%20the,which%20were%20full%20electric%20vehicles).

My guess is pre-conditioning is something automatic. All it would take is a thermostat tied to a relay that switched electricity to warming the battery until it reached the proper temperature. If, however, the battery continues to lose heat as fast as can be gained from warming, then, based only on the article description, it could just sit there.

Something else to consider is the mass of the battery. The bigger the mass, the more energy required to increase the temperature.

As to Sweden, maybe they don't drive Teslas? Other than that, I do have the question of average driving distance in Sweden.

 

[wing2000]

Unlike cars with internal combustion engines, an electric vehicle has two batteries: a low-voltage and a high-voltage. In particularly cold weather, the lower-voltage, 12-volt battery can also lose charge, like it does in traditional vehicles.

When that happens, the E.V. cannot charge at a fast charger until the low voltage battery has been jump-started, said Albert Gore III, a former Tesla employee who is now the executive director of the Zero Emission Transportation Association, which represents automakers including Tesla and has released a tips sheet for operating electric vehicles in cold weather.

The challenge for electric vehicles is the two sides of the battery — the anode and the cathode — have chemical reactions that are slowed during extremely cold temperatures. That affects both the charging and the discharging of the battery, said Jack Brouwer, director of the Clean Energy Institute and a professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of California, Irvine.

Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather (Published 2024)

In freezing temperatures, the batteries of electric vehicles can be less efficient and have shorter range, a lesson many Tesla drivers in Chicago learned this week.

www.nytimes.com

 

[wing2000]

As to Sweden, maybe they don't drive Teslas? Other than that, I do have the question of average driving distance in Sweden.

It was Norway....2023 sales:
Norway was a major hotspot for Tesla, as it landed 23.6 percent of the total market share and, once again, the Model Y was the biggest seller. It was not very close.

The Model Y’s 23,058 tracked registrations outpaced the ID.4 from Volkswagen by nearly four times, as the all-electric crossover from the German company had 6,336 registrations.

Tesla dominated European markets in 2023

Tesla dominated various European markets in 2023 as the company is evidently the main driver behind a continuous increase in electric vehicle market share on the continent.

www.teslarati.com

 

[Tinker Grey]

Here's a video of car guys recently testing the range of a model 3 Tesla at around 0°F. They got around only 1/2 the range (~150/~300). Of course, it is one test with one car and not statistical, but it is an indication (Pushing the car is just for the thumbnail):

 

[Hans Blaster]

Here's a video of car guys recently testing the range of a model 3 Tesla at around 0°F. They got around only 1/2 the range (~150/~300). Of course, it is one test with one car and not statistical, but it is an indication (Pushing the car is just for the thumbnail):

That display seems a safety nightmare.

Of course if you don't like cold batteries, you could get a diesel.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

That display seems a safety nightmare.

Of course if you don't like cold batteries, you could get a diesel.

Yep! Diesel works great in below freezing weather, Never had a problem with my Diesel Truck in the Michigan Winter.

 

[wing2000]

Here's a video of car guys recently testing the range of a model 3 Tesla at around 0°F. They got around only 1/2 the range (~150/~300). Of course, it is one test with one car and not statistical, but it is an indication (Pushing the car is just for the thumbnail):

Interesting test in extreme conditionsm. -1 F (daytime temperature) is extremely rare in Denver. The car indicated it was consuming 29% more energy than normal...which would be expected given the energy needed to keep the car interior and battery warm (+ slighty underflated all season tires). A more typical cold daytime temperature in Denver (and most cold places in the lower 48) would be high 20's/30's. Presumably, the high energy curve would be reduced somewhat.
The driver also pre-conditioned the batteries for charging which allowed the car to re-charge quickly at a 250 kilowatt charger.

 

[wing2000]

That display seems a safety nightmare.

Yes, talk about distracted driving.....all that information would be too tempting to watch. Maybe I'm showing my age, but using a touch screen for frequently used car functions is not for me. Having said that, I am planning to rent a Telsa Model Y for a weekend trip to Vegas--- out of curiosity (rental price was surprisingly cheaper than a similar sized ICE car).

 

[Tuur]

a 250 kilowatt charger.

You mean a charger that supplies 250 Kw? That means a higher draw for the charger itself.

Oh. My.

That is quite an electrical load. Granted this is at a dedicated charging stations, but that one charger has a higher load than some of our utility's commercial loads.

A charging station with multiple charging units, each drawing more than 250 KW... Oh. My.

That got me curious about home charging. With visions of upgrading residential transformers and services dancing in my head, I found this:

https://www.tesla.com/home-charging

Standard pulls 1.3 Kw for 3 miles for each hour's charge on "standard wall outlet." In the US, call it 120v on a 15 amp breaker. Watts = Volts x Amps, so 1,300 watts at 120v = 10.83 amps. Okay. It's important to note that the continuous amps a breaker will pull before tripping is lower than instantaneous amps. Saw where the NEC requires a certain rating, but not having a copy of the code, won't quote what I saw. The wiring has to be rated for a higher load than breaker rating.

Moving up to 240v, the load increases to 7.6 Kw for 30 miles for each hour's charge. Umm....let me check my breaker box.

Okay. 7,600 w at 240v is 31.67 amps. 30 amp breakers won't carry it. I'd be uncomfortable with 40 amp. Would an electrician run a 60 amp circuit? Don't know, but it's possible.

That's all for standard. Move up to the special wall connectors, and you have 11.5 Kw for 44 miles for each hour's charge. That's 47.92 amps at 240v, so that's likely a 60 amp circuit.

All this adds to the load on the main breaker. It also adds to the load on the electrical entrance and the service wires and the transformer. If a house is pushing it at 15 KVA, then we're looking at going up to a 25 KVA for 7.6 Kw, and 37.5 KVA for 11.5 Kw.

Let's say a subdivision of fifty homes ends up with an electric car at every house. That's an increase of 380 Kw for 7.6 Kw chargers and 575 Kw for 11.5 Kw chargers. For our utility's entire system...

Oh. My.

That's not even looking at the installation of 250 Kw charging stations.

(Stares blankly into space a moment)

I'm glad I'm retiring in just a few years.

 

[SimplyMe]

Here's a video of car guys recently testing the range of a model 3 Tesla at around 0°F. They got around only 1/2 the range (~150/~300). Of course, it is one test with one car and not statistical, but it is an indication (Pushing the car is just for the thumbnail):

To be fair, they got half the range that Tesla claims the car has -- essentially comparing against the EPA numbers (which tend to be inflated by about 20-30% on Teslas). As such, they were actually only off by about 30%, or so, compared to previous range tests they have done. It is also worth noting that ICE vehicles experience similar fuel efficiency losses (as high as 33%) in this cold of weather, and it gets worse for hybrid vehicles (which is largely related to the engine needing to stay on more to keep the gas engine warm).

It is unclear, at this point, why so many failures occurred in the Chicago area -- I'm not aware of other areas of the US having similar issues, despite other areas being as cold during this period. Additionally, as pointed out, countries such as Canada (which was also having this weather) and Norway (which has about the highest EV adoptions rates, 80% of new cars in 2022 where EVs, as well as about 25% of all Norwegian cars) do not have similar issues when it is this cold or even colder.

 

[SimplyMe]

Unlike cars with internal combustion engines, an electric vehicle has two batteries: a low-voltage and a high-voltage. In particularly cold weather, the lower-voltage, 12-volt battery can also lose charge, like it does in traditional vehicles.

When that happens, the E.V. cannot charge at a fast charger until the low voltage battery has been jump-started, said Albert Gore III, a former Tesla employee who is now the executive director of the Zero Emission Transportation Association, which represents automakers including Tesla and has released a tips sheet for operating electric vehicles in cold weather.

The challenge for electric vehicles is the two sides of the battery — the anode and the cathode — have chemical reactions that are slowed during extremely cold temperatures. That affects both the charging and the discharging of the battery, said Jack Brouwer, director of the Clean Energy Institute and a professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of California, Irvine.

Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather (Published 2024)

In freezing temperatures, the batteries of electric vehicles can be less efficient and have shorter range, a lesson many Tesla drivers in Chicago learned this week.

www.nytimes.com

Just to be clear, the 12V battery in an EV is typically the same battery found in ICE cars -- so ICE cars have the same issues (other than the battery is not needed to fill the tank on a gas car). But people have found it tough to get to the gas station when they can't start their gas vehicles due to the cold weather affecting the 12V battery, at least prior to getting the car jump started.

 

[SimplyMe]

You mean a charger that supplies 250 Kw? That means a higher draw for the charger itself.

Oh. My.

That is quite an electrical load. Granted this is at a dedicated charging stations, but that one charger has a higher load than some of our utility's commercial loads.

A charging station with multiple charging units, each drawing more than 250 KW... Oh. My.

That got me curious about home charging. With visions of upgrading residential transformers and services dancing in my head, I found this:

https://www.tesla.com/home-charging

Standard pulls 1.3 Kw for 3 miles for each hour's charge on "standard wall outlet." In the US, call it 120v on a 15 amp breaker. Watts = Volts x Amps, so 1,300 watts at 120v = 10.83 amps. Okay. It's important to note that the continuous amps a breaker will pull before tripping is lower than instantaneous amps. Saw where the NEC requires a certain rating, but not having a copy of the code, won't quote what I saw. The wiring has to be rated for a higher load than breaker rating.

Moving up to 240v, the load increases to 7.6 Kw for 30 miles for each hour's charge. Umm....let me check my breaker box.

Okay. 7,600 w at 240v is 31.67 amps. 30 amp breakers won't carry it. I'd be uncomfortable with 40 amp. Would an electrician run a 60 amp circuit? Don't know, but it's possible.

That's all for standard. Move up to the special wall connectors, and you have 11.5 Kw for 44 miles for each hour's charge. That's 47.92 amps at 240v, so that's likely a 60 amp circuit.

All this adds to the load on the main breaker. It also adds to the load on the electrical entrance and the service wires and the transformer. If a house is pushing it at 15 KVA, then we're looking at going up to a 25 KVA for 7.6 Kw, and 37.5 KVA for 11.5 Kw.

Let's say a subdivision of fifty homes ends up with an electric car at every house. That's an increase of 380 Kw for 7.6 Kw chargers and 575 Kw for 11.5 Kw chargers. For our utility's entire system...

Oh. My.

That's not even looking at the installation of 250 Kw charging stations.

(Stares blankly into space a moment)

I'm glad I'm retiring in just a few years.

There are some interesting evaluations of this -- particularly the fact that most (even almost all) home charging occurs at night, when other power drains from the house are low. There are some that claim that higher EV adoption will be good for the grid, as it will balance the power usage between the night and day, as opposed to currently where power plants are often essentially "turned off" at night due to lack of demand. Part of this is accomplished, in some locations, by discounting rates during slack periods, causing EV owners to schedule their cars charging (which is built into the vehicle software) so that charging does not start until later in the evening.

There have also been plans made, unsure if they would ever be implemented, that would allow for EVs to be used as batteries for the grid. Essentially, if an EV is plugged in during the day (to a 120/240W charger), then the power company could pull some of the power out of the car battery, on an as needed basis, when there is high electricity demand. After the high demand period is ended, the car would be recharged to full (for "free" -- where any power taken would provide a credit that gives the account that amount of power free).