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Evolution's evil twin

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Maccie

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Having read through this thread carefully, it seems to me that there is a lot of ignorance over just how long species have been evolving. We are talking about thousands of millions of years. Naturally no one person can see a mutation "happening" nor its survival as a pointer to an altered species. Some scientists working with very short lived insects, say fruit flies, may be able to "see" evolution happening, but no-one will be able to see it happening with other species, especially mammals including humans.

In fact, mutations are happening all the time, which is how genetic diseases can arise. Some mutations are lethal, and the foetus does not survive. Others may be of little importance to the individual. But trouble can arise where two individuals with the mutation (which would have been regressive in any one individual) mate and the resulting progeny has only that mutation from both parents.

Eugenics has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Where animals are concerned, it is usually termed "Breeding programme", as someone else has explained. Cows may be bred for milk production, sheep for especially fine wool. But where humans are concerned it generally refers to a notion of the "superiority" of a race or peoples, such as happened in Nazi Germany in the 1930's, where blacks, Jews, gipsies and anyone showing homosexual "traits" (as defined by the Nazis) were exterminated in order to keep the so-called Aryan race, i.e. the Germans with fair hair, "pure".

Today, eugenics has turned into the "designer baby" problem. Some parents want a "perfect" baby, some scientists are willing to accommodate them, for money of course. But it is a very dodgy, and a very unethical thing to do.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Kripost said:
Isn't it possible to perform eugenics without knowledge of evolution?
We've been doing it for thousands of years with domestic animals.

The insane part of this whole argument is that if eugenics can be linked to evolution at all, it can only be linked to variation and natural selection within a species - which is the bit that the modern Creationists say that they accept!

Do you think I could get a new irony meter off of Ebay?
 
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seebs

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The theory of evolution is a scientific theory. It describes things which happen; for instance, species change over time.

Eugenics is a proposed action. It is an attempt to assert one set of outcomes as more desirable than another.

You might as well argue that, since doctors have big books full of lists of dangerous combinations of medications, they should be big on poisoning people and murder. Science tells us how the world works; ethics tells us what to do about it. The question of eugenics is fundamentally a moral question, a question of "how should we act".
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Wasn't it Hume who demonstrated that "ought" statements cannot validly be derived from "is" statements?

This whole argument is of the same intellectual calibre as "gravity causes people to fall off cliffs and die so jumping of cliffs is what we ought to do"
 
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seebs

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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Wasn't it Hume who demonstrated that "ought" statements cannot validly be derived from "is" statements?

This whole argument is of the same intellectual calibre as "gravity causes people to fall off cliffs and die so jumping of cliffs is what we ought to do"

Exactly. Science does not provide any value judgments at all.
 
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cweb255

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1: The Crusades can be verified by God's command to the Hebrews to wipe out all pagans.

2: Eugenics deals with human selection, not natural selection.

3: A cockroach survives today because it is able to survive. Just because a certain species evolved doesn't mean that all evolve. Think religion: Catholics spawned Protestants, but both coexist today.
 
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TwinCrier

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tryptophan said:
I suppose it is possible. Technically, breeding techniques with agriculture is a form of eugenics. You take the trait that you want to improve upon, you cross two animals with the largest advantage for the traits, and then don't allow other animals without that certain trait to cross. However, I consider it highly unethical with regards to humans.
Could you elaborate on how and/or why it is unethical. Is it something you read in the bible? And why is it not ethical when done to animals?
 
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TwinCrier

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Maccie said:
Today, eugenics has turned into the "designer baby" problem. Some parents want a "perfect" baby, some scientists are willing to accommodate them, for money of course. But it is a very dodgy, and a very unethical thing to do.
Why is it unethical? It would seem our choices for wanting certain genes to prosper could simply be a form of selection. Natur5al selection comes about by choices that the individuals of a species make, so why does it become unethical for a human to alter genes to avoid undesireable results? Isn't this more ethical then say, animals who eat their defective young? We are totally bypassing the creation of unsuitable beings in the species.
 
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Gold Dragon

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While the ethics of eugenics and gene therapy is an interesting topic of debate, it should be stated that considering both to be unethical has no bearing on evolution unless you hold the common faulty view of evolution that is held by both eugenicists and YECs. That view states that evolution is directed towards "improving" a species to be more "desireable".
 
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Maccie

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Why is it unethical? It would seem our choices for wanting certain genes to prosper could simply be a form of selection.
"Designer babies" are not just a case of hoping that the baby gets your beauty and his brains! After all, in the natural way the baby might get his beauty and your brains! The design bit comes when, say, sperm from another man is introduced to your ovum. Or when a scan shows the baby has "undesirable" characteristics, like a deformity (a cleft palate, maybe) and is aborted.

Animals are bred for food or their products, and one that hasn't got the characteristics that are required is usually killed and eaten.
 
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TwinCrier

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Vance said:
Again, I see this type of manipulation as "anti-evolution", in the sense that it is messing with God's natural process of evolutionary development.
But man manipulates things for survival, such as treating diseases, and certainly no one would argue that we should do away with chemo or vaccines because they are unnatural. In theory, if we prevent inferior humans from even being conceived, we could evolve much faster.
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
In theory, if we prevent inferior humans from even being conceived, we could evolve much faster.
Again, you perpetuate the misconception held by eugenicists and many YECs that evolution has something to do with "improving" or "preventing inferiority". Continue to bash your incorrect version of evolution and us TEs will continue to bash this non-existent version with you.
 
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notto

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TwinCrier said:
But man manipulates things for survival, such as treating diseases, and certainly no one would argue that we should do away with chemo or vaccines because they are unnatural. In theory, if we prevent inferior humans from even being conceived, we could evolve much faster.
Can you explain specifically (using terms and models and actual biology) why preventing 'inferior' humans from being conceived, we would evolve much faster? Evolve to what, specifically? Evolution has no goal except survival. You are talking nonsense. We are surviving and having 'inferior' humans as part of the pool does nothing to prevent our 'evolution'.
 
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TwinCrier

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Gold Dragon said:
Again, you perpetuate the misconception held by eugenicists and many YECs that evolution has something to do with "improving" or "preventing inferiority". Continue to bash your incorrect version of evolution and us TEs will continue to bash this non-existent version with you.
So evolution isn't changing for the better?
 
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Gold Dragon

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TwinCrier said:
So evolution isn't changing for the better?
I'm starting to feel like a broken record here but no.

It isn't about changing for the better or for anything. It is about change that has been passed on to the next generation.

Talk Origins

...
Evolution is not progress. Populations simply adapt to their current surroundings. They do not necessarily become better in any absolute sense over time. A trait or strategy that is successful at one time may be unsuccessful at another. Paquin and Adams demonstrated this experimentally. They founded a yeast culture and maintained it for many generations. Occasionally, a mutation would arise that allowed its bearer to reproduce better than its contemporaries. These mutant strains would crowd out the formerly dominant strains. Samples of the most successful strains from the culture were taken at a variety of times. In later competition experiments, each strain would outcompete the immediately previously dominant type in a culture. However, some earlier isolates could outcompete strains that arose late in the experiment. Competitive ability of a strain was always better than its previous type, but competitiveness in a general sense was not increasing. Any organism's success depends on the behavior of its contemporaries. For most traits or behaviors there is likely no optimal design or strategy, only contingent ones.
...
PBS : Evolution FAQ

8. Are evolution and "survival of the fittest" the same thing?

Evolution and "survival of the fittest" are not the same thing. Evolution refers to the cumulative changes in a population or species through time. "Survival of the fittest" is a popular term that refers to the process of natural selection, a mechanism that drives evolutionary change. Natural selection works by giving individuals who are better adapted to a given set of environmental conditions an advantage over those that are not as well adapted. Survival of the fittest usually makes one think of the biggest, strongest, or smartest individuals being the winners, but in a biological sense, evolutionary fitness refers to the ability to survive and reproduce in a particular environment. Popular interpretations of "survival of the fittest" typically ignore the importance of both reproduction and cooperation. To survive but not pass on one's genes to the next generation is to be biologically unfit. And many organisms are the "fittest" because they cooperate with other organisms, rather than competing with them.
 
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TwinCrier

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notto said:
Can you explain specifically (using terms and models and actual biology) why preventing 'inferior' humans from being conceived, we would evolve much faster? Evolve to what, specifically? Evolution has no goal except survival. You are talking nonsense. We are surviving and having 'inferior' humans as part of the pool does nothing to prevent our 'evolution'.
Evolve to what is a good question. Since we view our fish-like and ape-like ancestors as not being on the same level of intelligence as we homosapiens, I'm sure whatever species we do evolve into on a billion years from now, we likewise wonder why we continued to breed with humans on inferior intellect for so long. Natural selection will eventiually lead to a split in humankind where to less intelligent breed with each other while the smartr of the species seek each other out. If the only goal is survival, then even cigarettes are playing their roll, helping to eliminate the weaker ones of the species and reducing their ability to reproduce. You're correct, having 'inferior' humans as part of the pool does nothing to prevent our 'evolution' as long as they do not interbreed with those of the species who are in the process of evolving. It would be wrong to assume that the evolutionary process has just stopped with the 21st century.
 
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TwinCrier

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Gold Dragon said:
I'm starting to feel like a broken record here but no.

It isn't about changing for the better or for anything. It is about change that has been passed on to the next generation.
So evolution is change for the sake of change. Could be better, could be worse.
 
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gluadys

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TwinCrier said:
So evolution isn't changing for the better?

Emphatically, NO. It isn't.

It is changing to adapt better to the current environment, nothing more. Since the environment itself changes, no evolutionary change is definitively better.

That is one of the lessons of the pepper moths. One year it's better to be white. Another year, it's better to be black, and then another it's better to be white again.

On an absolute scale neither colour is better than the other. It all depends on the circumstances.
 
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