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If you want to use the label, use the label.
If you want to categorize a lion and call it Panthera leo, then do so if it'll help you understand the animal world more.
But don't go around saying "Panthera" is not a "kind" because Panthera is a "genus," or you need to be corrected.
are you talking about yourself? because its seems you are...
No, my example stands since the female Liger is still so closely related it can interbreed with both the Tiger and the Lion.And given that both male and female offspring from such a pairing would be fertile, it indicates that the two parent dogs are much more closely related than a lion and a tiger.
Your example falls apart.
Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....Why are you trying to talk about biology when you obviously have no idea how it works?
Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....It's painful trying to talk to you about biology when you know so little about it that you are incapable of knowing how little you know about it.
Since others on here wanted to play the report game (they know who they are) this is the only and last warning you will get.Wow, you are totally incapable of actually comprehending English, aren't you?
First, I posted that source that said MAY the very first time I brought up the subject, so you can't say I have changed my views. I am reiterating the view given by the source I posted the very first time we discussed it.
Secondly, in that same post, I said "OFTEN" requires C sections.
And yet now you are trying to claim that I said that they ALWAYS required C sections and have since changed that claim. I have done no such thing. Don't lie to me about the things that I have said. NA dif that's the only way you can make your point, then your point is rubbish and should be kept silent.
Except the fertility of the female Liger shows they haven’t evolved to the point of separate species.I'll accept that. In any case, it doesn't take away from my other points - the infertility of male ligers indicates that lions and tigers are evolving away from each other, and the fertility problems we see are exactly what we'd expect to see if evolution were true.
No, my example stands since the female Liger is still so closely related it can interbreed with both the Tiger and the Lion.
As I said, if you want to try to claim the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger, This can be discussed.
Just remember your own claim. If interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of same species, then not interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of separate species....
Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....
So your claims in light of the facts don’t mean much.....
Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....
So your claims in light of the facts don’t mean that much....
No, my example stands since the female Liger is still so closely related it can interbreed with both the Tiger and the Lion.
As I said, if you want to try to claim the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger, This can be discussed.
Just remember your own claim. If interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of same species, then not interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of separate species....
Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....
Since others on here wanted to play the report game (they know who they are) this is the only and last warning you will get.
Since the game is underfoot, I’m going to show you all how to play it.....
Except the fertility of the female Liger shows they haven’t evolved to the point of separate species.
As I said above, if you want to try to make a case that male Ligers are a separate species from female Ligers I would be willing to consider such. But since that means the male Liger species is on its way to extinction the designation would be meaningless....
And just goes to show what happens when they diverge too much.... not evolution, but extinction...... divergence to the point offspring is no longer possible, not a new line....
Sure, it’s well documented....Do you have any links that support this claim of interbreeding of Ligers with a male from either species? From what I have read they have very limited fertility and there does not appear to be any record of liligers or titigons breeding at all.
Tigers and lions are different species because crosses, though they may live in captivity, will not survive in the wild. Even with just tigers and lions the number of deaths is very high. All male hybrids have been sterile, not only in practice but when dissected after death males have been demonstrated to be sterile:
Liger - Wikipedia
Panthera hybrid - Wikipedia
The problem appears to get worse with each generation. If you want to claim they are the same species you would need to show that the problem of sterility goes away, that does not appear to be the case.
You have that backwards as usual. That they cannot interbreed successfully, which you just admitted to, supports speciation.Sure, it’s well documented....
The litigon rediscovered - Nature India
Liliger - An Offspring of Lion & Liger
That’s just it, with each change, they are becoming less and less able to reproduce. This is not supporting evolution, but disproving it. A new species is not being formed capable of passing on its genes, but slowly leading to non reproduction and extinction.....
Evolution is falsified. Even if we assume incorrectly that they are separate species, your best case scenario, it is leading to not even being able to reproduce, not to better fitness......
And your claim of them not being able to exist in the wild is based upon false premises. Physically the are stronger and faster than either of the parents. The only reason they do not is because the habitats of the parents do not overlap naturally. But your claim falsifies your own belief in evolution, as geological changes happen and territories change, bringing what was once separated into contact......
So according to this belief, the American Indian should be a separate species since it was reproductively isolated for 10,000 years or more......
Ahh, but now you all will argue against the very thing you are arguing for....... even when f American Indians are still capable of reproduction with others when brought together, just as the Tiger is capable of reproduction with the Lion when brought together.....
So let’s hear no more false claims of habitat and separation......
Here we go again.You have that backwards as usual. That they cannot interbreed successfully, which you just admitted to, supports speciation.
That is clearly false since many believers not only disagree with you but have worked on the science themselves. Are false attacks against people, most of them fellow Christians, all that you have?Here we go again.
A point of view which takes only the godless (without need of God in this world to bring about) would promote. Including God in the equation is removed.
That does not fly. Such has produced misinformation.
What was presented by TS is how evolution does not work as presented. Such breeding eventually degrades the species.
You state that is evolution. To make other species.
Excuse me. The original species were created, not evolved from some other creature. And such created creature was degraded over time, not more refined and more complex.
It has been through ungodly perception and reasoning evolution has matered in academia and over promoted by those indoctrinated by such godless errant literature.
What was presented by TS is how evolution does not work as presented. Such breeding eventually degrades the species.
You state that is evolution. To make other species.
Excuse me. The original species were created, not evolved from some other creature. And such created creature was degraded over time, not more refined and more complex.
That's true.... he's not an idiot.
And there goes another irony meter.That's true.
An idiot isn't an idiot by choice.
A fool is.
Incidentally, what's academia's definition of "fool"?And there goes another irony meter.
Here we go again.
Excuse me. The original species were created, not evolved from some other creature.
And such created creature was degraded over time, not more refined and more complex.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,Given your claimed education in molecular biology, can you tell us all why this notion (extinction via mutation) is at odds with something we all have in our genomes?
Relevant, since it CAN breed with Lions and Tigers!!!!!! As I said, are you suggesting that the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger????Irrelevant, since it CAN'T breed with other Ligers!
No, you are. It is you that wants Lions and Tigers despite the ability to produce fertile offspring to be separate species... Female Ligers can produce fertile offspring, only the male Ligers can not.Are you seriously trying to claim that different sexes are different species? Once again, you demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about...
Agreed, to the point of the male Liger which can't breed with anything.... Not into another species which continues it's line. It simply shows where your beliefs of evolution lead once they diverge too far.... Extinction, not a new genetic line.....True. Then let's say genetic similarity is a better indication of species. As two different populations evolve away from their common ancestor, they become more and more different to each other genetically.
And one result of increasing genetic difference is an inability to interbreed. The more different they are to each other, the less likely interbreeding is.
What speciation event? If they are still interbreeding then they haven't diverged far enough to become a separate species. And when they do they can't interbreed at all.....And if the speciation event was very recent, interbreeding may still be possible.
Call facts a strawman all you like. If you can't figure it out you'll know it when you repeat it....I'm sorry, do you think that I'm breaking the rules by pointing out that you are misrepresenting my position and using a strawman argument?
Except the problem is it leads to non-reproducibility, not a new line that will continue....Except that the fact that ligers have fertility issues is exactly the kind of evidence that we'd expect to see if lions and tigers were evolving away from each other.
Relevant, since it CAN breed with Lions and Tigers!!!!!! As I said, are you suggesting that the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger????
No, you are. It is you that wants Lions and Tigers despite the ability to produce fertile offspring to be separate species... Female Ligers can produce fertile offspring, only the male Ligers can not.
Agreed, to the point of the male Liger which can't breed with anything.... Not into another species which continues it's line. It simply shows where your beliefs of evolution lead once they diverge too far.... Extinction, not a new genetic line.....
What speciation event? If they are still interbreeding then they haven't diverged far enough to become a separate species. And when they do they can't interbreed at all.....
Call facts a strawman all you like. If you can't figure it out you'll know it when you repeat it....
Except the problem is it leads to non-reproducibility, not a new line that will continue....
And no, it is exactly what we would expect to see when the Kind has exhausted the variation already possible within the genome.... Dead ends, not a new line that continues on.....
All you need do is accept the facts as they are and realize they are not becoming more fit, but less fit, to the point of not even being able to interbreed with one of their own species...... the exact opposite of what evolution claims.....
Evolution is falsified..... they are reaching the point where they are unable to reproduce, not reaching the point of a new level of fitness in which the offspring carry on into a new line.....
Sure, it’s well documented....
The litigon rediscovered - Nature India
Liliger - An Offspring of Lion & Liger
That’s just it, with each change, they are becoming less and less able to reproduce. This is not supporting evolution, but disproving it. A new species is not being formed capable of passing on its genes, but slowly leading to non reproduction and extinction.....
Evolution is falsified. Even if we assume incorrectly that they are separate species, your best case scenario, it is leading to not even being able to reproduce, not to better fitness......
And your claim of them not being able to exist in the wild is based upon false premises. Physically the are stronger and faster than either of the parents. The only reason they do not is because the habitats of the parents do not overlap naturally. But your claim falsifies your own belief in evolution, as geological changes happen and territories change, bringing what was once separated into contact......
So according to this belief, the American Indian should be a separate species since it was reproductively isolated for 10,000 years or more......
Ahh, but now you all will argue against the very thing you are arguing for....... even when American Indians are still capable of reproduction with others when brought together, just as the Tiger is capable of reproduction with the Lion when brought together.....
So let’s hear no more false claims of habitat and separation......
And think of D not being able to mate with anything, even other D, and you see it is exactly that, the failure of evolution. If C has this much difficulty, then D or E is doomed.....I suspect that I know what the trouble is...
You are viewing the inability of a liger to breed with another liger as evidence of some failure of evolution.
Instead, try thinking of ligers as an indicator of how similar lions and tigers are. The fact that ligers can't breed with other ligers indicates that lions and tigers are moving apart genetically. They are still similar enough that they can produce some offspring, but they are not so similar that the offspring are without problems.
In other words, when it comes to A+B=C, think of C as a measure of how similar A and B are.
Ignoring is your specialty...No, I am saying that lions and tigers are NOT ligers! This is not s difficult concept to grasp, yet you seem to be intentionally going out of your way to ignore it.
And so evolution is dead, because Ligers will go extinct, not continue on despite being stronger and faster.... which is what you fail to accept.There is no way to produce a liger except by breeding two NON-ligers. When it comes to breeding lions, we have a lion mother and lion father. When it comes to breeding tigers, we have a tiger mother and tiger father. Simple enough, yes? When it comes to breeding ligers, trying to get a liger mother and a liger father DOESN'T WORK!
That remains to be seen.Not entirely fertile - male ligers are sterile! You can never breed a liger with a liger!
No, it is evidence that they are nearing the end of the variability within the Kind.So you agree with me. And since ligers can't breed with other ligers, then it is evidence that lions and tigers are evolving away from each other.
It's not an on/off thing, you know. I have lost track of how many times I have had to say this. It's not like one generation they can interbreed with nary a problem and then the next generation there is no interbreeding at all. And that is EXACTLY what the sterile male liger thing shows!
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