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Evolutionary/Genetic Algorithms

DogmaHunter

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The environment is protected from natural elements. It is easily to name a few.
The concentration of whatever media can NOT be maintained for such a long time on the surface of the earth.

Which...does....not...matter.

It's a controlled environment that enables certain selection pressures. That's all that matters. Which pressure doesn't matter. It provides a simple and stable platform on which bacteria can compete with their peers. THAT is what matters.

As I said, this is a experiment that "makes up" data for evolution argument.

No, it does not. And I'm clueless why you think it does.

Whatever the results show, they are not real.

What the...? These results are very real, reality denier. E Coli very much mutated and this mutation very much gave it an edge over those not having the mutation. The mutated form then very quickly dominated the population and outcompeted those without the mutation.

This is as real as it gets. Your denial and unwillingness to understand and learn is only your problem.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I suggest you to save all the energy in making junk reply like this. It won't do you any good.

Lol. Great comeback.

Why don't you say something on my comment to your GE algorithm argument?

Is it possible to let the algorithm make two or more equally fit results?

Why do you pretend that I didn't address that?

dogmahunter said:
It's called genetic isolation. We can do this in GA applications as well, but there's no real use for it. But we sure could do it.

In the app I linked, that would mean that we would for example grab the population of generation 100, split it in 2 and have one half stay on the current track while moving the other half to another track without allowing interbreeding between both groups.

After a while, we would have 2 populations of cars that don't really resemble eachother that much anymore. We would have 2 "species" of cars, each "specialised" to ride the track they evolved on. And both groups would share ancestry from before the genetic split.

dogmahunter said:
It doesn't evolve systems just for the sake of it.
It's a method of optimization of a system that needs to perform in a specific environment with specific parameters.

It makes no sense to play with genetic isolation. It has no added value to the optimization process.

You could run multiple simulations, sure. But that's not the same thing.

You also don't seem to understand that GA's are used to optimize systems that fill a specific niche. Whereas population splits in nature aren't like that. Both groups don't occupy the same niche. They live in different environments. The environments might be similar, but they would not be the same. Different parameters would result in different selective pressures. And you'll end up with 2 population, each of which would be optimized for its specific niche - not for the niche of the other.

In a GA application, there is only 1 niche to fill.

dogmahunter said:
You don't, because it's a waste of money.
But in case you have money to waste and want to do it just for the sake of it, you can. And I already explained how to do it in my previous post. Perhaps you should read it all the way through.

I'll repeat it. In the linked car app, you'ld grab half the population of a specific generation and move them to a new track, while leaving the other half on the original track and while not allowing interbreeding between both groups from that point on.

You will have successfully isolated part of the population which would then in turn start to be optimized for that new niche they have to fill (being, the new track).

Moving half the population to another identical track would not result in fitter cars. In fact, it would most probably slow the optimization process down, as you would have successfully eradicated half of the genetic variation of the population


How many more times do you need me to address the same point before you will stop pretending that I didn't address it?

I can give someone the benefit of the doubt to have missed it one time. But not three times. At that point, I'll simply have to call you a dishonest liar.
 
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juvenissun

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In the app I linked, that would mean that we would for example grab the population of generation 100, split it in 2 and have one half stay on the current track while moving the other half to another track without allowing interbreeding between both groups.

No so.

What you should do is to change the condition of the first track and see how would the 100 population react. There is no need for the second track.

If they all reacted to the change and ended up with A population of modified property, then there is no evolution.

If they reacted so that some of the 100 reacted differently from the others and ended up with two population of different natures. Then that is evolution.

Obviously, evolution is not possibly shown by GA. You do not have to argue, I know that.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You are blatantly changing the goalpost.

Here's what your original question was about this:

If you don't get it, then think about this: Why should chimp evolved into human on one hand, but also continue to thrive on the other hand?

Ignoring the fact that you incorrectly imply that chimps evolved into humans (let's just assume that you in fact correctly stated that a primate ancestor evolved into humans on the one hand and into chimps on the other), that question deals with genetic isolation. It requires an ancestral population to split in 2 and continue to evolve seperately without interbreeding in different environments.

I will respond to your new nonsense, but keep in mind that we are no longer talking about your initial question. Since you abandonned that one by moving the goalpost.

What you should do is to change the condition of the first track and see how would the 100 population react.

Which is something you can do in the app I linked to. You can also adjust the mutation rate, breeding strategy, etc. But I trust that you haven't taken the time to give the linked app a proper look. Perhaps you didn't even click the link. You're just running with your baseless assumptions again. Had you looked at the app, you would have known all this.

When you change the track, you change the selection pressure (ie: the fitness test). The only thing you will accomplish is that from that point on, the cars will evolve to become optimized for that new track.

The equivalent of this in nature would be migrating to a different area, with other selection pressures as opposed to the previous area (other predators, other weather, other plants, etc). Another possibility would be no migration but the environment / niche changing. Lot's of things could be responsible for that: volcano's, forming of rivers, forming of desert, asteroid impact, invasion of new species, extinction of an already present species,... anything that might upset the eco-system / niche, really.

There is no need for the second track.

There is in your original request, since you were refering to the split between chimps and humans. Which is the result of a population split resulting in 2 groups being genetically isolated from eachother, each of which needs to survive and reproduce in an area with different selection pressures.

If they all reacted to the change and ended up with A population of modified property, then there is no evolution.

This makes no sense. Off course they will react to the change, because the evolutionary processes regulating the cars will start optimizing the cars for the new track. How you can say that that isn't evolution is beyond me.

Then what would be evolution according to you? A system where changing the selection pressure makes no difference whatsoever to the evolutionary path the population is on? :doh:

If they reacted so that some of the 100 reacted differently from the others and ended up with two population of different natures. Then that is evolution.

No. You are again completely ignoring what genetic isolation is.
To end up with 2 different populations (species) after many generations, you would need to SPLIT THEM UP so that they DO NOT INTERBREED.

It seems to me that you are asking for something that can only be accomplished through genetic isolation while demanding that genetic isolation is not used.

This request couldn't get more dishonest if you tried.

Obviously, evolution is not possibly shown by GA. You do not have to argue, I know that.

:doh:

Nobody claimed that GA's prove evolution.
What GA's prove is that the mechanisms work.
What they prove is that descent with modification followed by a selection process is perfectly capable of optimizing a system to fill a certain specified niche, without having any "intelligent agent" tinker with the genotype of the system.

GA's prove that evolutionary processes work. Not that they happened. That they work.
 
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digitalgoth

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Why is there no real use? I think it is VERY useful.

You write an algorithm which perfects one species, at the same time, produce another perfect species, through the evolution algorithm (process).

How do you program that?

At first this was a couple paragraphs but is now WAY to long on several topics. And is in two parts.

The summary is, you can program a system that would demonstrate macro and micro evolution to create distinct "species" of things in a simulation of varying complexity by emulating natural laws. There is a discussion on how mutation can add information in such a way that complexity can be created from simplicity. All of these discussions have nothing to do with biologic evolution, but evolution from a computer science standpoint which simulates concepts of Darwinian evolution.

Part One
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The general use (note the word general) of genetic algorithms is to optimize a set of parameters (genes) to solve a given problem. In this it resembles a genetically isolated "kind" in a fixed environment. And works similarly to micro evolution and basic farming.

Farmers do this all the time to row better crops and animals and have for millennia.

For example, you want to optimize the mpg on a car. Your goal is to create the car with the best mpg at the lowest cost. You hope for it to have features x, y, z, and it must have features a, b, c. So you set up all the genes needed for resembling that situation. The engine might have 4/6/8/12 cylinders, it may use diesel or gasoline or ethanol, it may have a narrow or wider wheelbase, it may have a variable length, be made of plastic, steel, fibreglass, or carbon fibre.

Now there are a lot of different ways to initialize the different solutions to the car problem you want to test. One way is to simply create a number of solutions, with their parameters randomly assigned. Some cars will have 12 cylinders, some 4, some with a wide wheel base, some narrow, and so on, but you couldn't possibly have every possible car combination, so you might create 20 different cars.

All these different cars are tested via a function which would compute the weight of the car, simulate a wind tunnel, compute the cost of the vehicle from all of the different parts, the wanted feature set, and what the mpg most likely will be. It will score that "car" with a ranking compared to all the other random cars with random parts you created.

At this point, the selection process begin. Using principles of natural selection, two random cars will be selected, with an edge given toward those that have better ranking (more fit) than ones that have worse ranking. Some of their genes (parts) are swapped with each other. The car that was designed with a 12 cylinder engine may be swapped with one with a 4 cylinder engine, and exchange wheelbases as well while keeping all their remaining parts as they are. This produces two "children" cars that are a blend of their parents genetics (car parts). This is called exploitation, where children (new solutions) are created using their parent's good parts (genes) that have already been found to be components of better mpg ranked cars with slightly lower cost to build. It's exploiting knowledge (information) that it has and rearranging it and seeing if that makes an even better car. If this is all it did, you would only be able to combine your various cars and get the "best" solution based on the combination of which parameters happened to be initially set. To get some sort truly optimized solution you would need one instance of every type of parameter and their range of values, which would quickly consume all resources and mathematically take forever.

To facilitate this, the evolutionary idea of mutation is added. The genes of your candidate cars can alter away from what their parents gave them, and change the cars parts differently than any of the original values that had been initialized in the first place. This is the concept in GA of exploration, where it explores the possibilities of all different kind of values for all of its parts once in awhile. When two parents combine their genetics to create two new children, exploitation, you also apply a slight chance of it changing to something completely different, exploration, which may pick a random car part in a car and randomly alter it to something else. Maybe the two cars that ran on gasoline that combined, might end up with a child that mutates its fuel to be ethanol. Or maybe a numeric valued gene may change, such as a car's length may increase by 5 inches.

The genetic algorithm loops over and over with new generations of cars, swapping their genes and occasionally mutating a gene here and there to a totally different value.

This goes on until an acceptable solution is found that meets your criteria based on the new combinations being produced, a number of generations has occurred, or too much time has passed and you restart it with new initialized values, or some other criteria.

The art of programming genetic algorithms is finding the right balance between selection pressure and mutation. If you only choose from the few absolute best cars and don't exploit other information you've discovered, you'll end up with premature convergence (it's not naughty premature) where there is not enough car part variation to get beyond a threshold of change, and all the cars end up being identical to one another but never really achieving a really good optimal mpg. Genetic drift (the statistical distribution of a the car parts in the population of cars) will fixate on a solution that is not what could be the theoretically best possible car. You may have cars that never even try using a different fuel or are 34 feet long.

However, if you overly mutate your cars parts, you have an opposite problem. Your cars will generally get worse and worse or stagnate because the cars are changing too much for the selection process to exploit the new mutations to remove bad cars from the population. Even if a good car was created, it would end up being overly mutated away from that good car. The cars' engines, wheels, dimensions, and various genes are changing so much that they can't manage to ever get any good mpg.

If you looked at a graph of a well designed genetic algorithm, it will show a nice graceful curve showing the car getting incrementally better mpg until it gets to a point where its is as good as you can make it. If that's within your threshold of price and mpg, you could build a car based on those parameters, and assuming your function that ranks them is accurate, you would have an optimal car at low cost and high mpg.

The art of balancing exploration and exploitation that a programmer does also is similar to what sometimes appears in nature. Some bacteria, when in an environment that is toxic or inhospitable, will actually increase its chance of mutation as it attempts to find a genetic structure that allows it a better chance to survive (like antibiotic resistant strains). Reed frogs, if in an overwhelmingly female environment, have developed genetics so that a frog will spontaneously lose their female organs and create male organs to allow the survival of the population and allow more breeding possibilities.

You see exploitation and exploration of information all around us. As probably a bad example, music in the seventies started becoming more and more disco like, and because so many groups were exploiting each others music, a different kind of rock rose up and soon the environment was selecting out disco by burning their albums, sharkskin suits weren't selling..you get the idea. The environment changed but the music couldn't necessarily keep up. If bands had continued just playing that they would have mostly died out and not have been able to perform and survive.

The 80s mutated music and saw new wave come up and exploited it to dozens of bands that were electronic and general 80s weirdness, however what defined a good rock band became dime a dozen spandex hair bands that were basically clones of each other so that they started to die out when the environment changed. Then one day Northwest bands mutated a grunge sound and suddenly groups like Nirvana popped up and lots of aspects of culture changed, fashion, film style, and coffee shops on every block evolved as well from what the 80s looked like, to what the 90s looked like. One day grunge couldn't survive as flannel and depressing lyrics no longer were suitable and had boy bands and Disney pushing out teenage stripper singers appeared and those survived better in the changing environment. New ideas that benefit are exploited, "They sold HOW many albums? Quick! Get me five badly singing young men!", until some new mutation changes something that causes it to be selected more and more in a changing environment, until it stagnates, until a new mutation arises. Socially you see it in culture, art, governments, religions, style, languages are all based on something from the past that changed in some way. Sometimes a large change or a little change in the environment, or a change that no one notices to the "thing" occurs until it suddenly becomes relevant to the environment in a big way (look how fast the US went from a colonial territory to a world superpower in a scant couple hundred years based on world wars in the environment and aspects of government within itself).

Now genetic algorithms aren't like music or art or style or frogs or bacteria. A general GA is micro-evolution oriented. A GA optimizing a car for mpg isn't going to spontaneously decide to grow wings and start flying. Or connect up horses instead of an engine. It can optimize the parameters that have been specified by the intelligent designing programmer as being relevant.

Earlier I said that "general" genetic algorithms are used in a certain way to find optimal solutions to problems. However there's no rule that says they have to do it in any specific way. There are a lot of variation in genetic algorithms, and what you're really doing is managing the how and when of exploration and exploitation so that you can allow a good balance of improving its rank. The fitness "ranking" function, instead of comparing the best mpg for the least amount of money, is in essence just something that controls how long a set of genes might survive by measuring the success of the parameters. The more generations they survive, the more they contribute to the population, and the more the population may receive a beneficial improvement via exploration.

There was a question of how to design a program that might emulate macro evolution, as in, completely new things that didn't exist before becoming completely different things in the future that don't resemble what they were.
 
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digitalgoth

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Why is there no real use? I think it is VERY useful.

You write an algorithm which perfects one species, at the same time, produce another perfect species, through the evolution algorithm (process).

How do you program that?


Part 2

You wouldn't do it by having an emulation of a creature and picking from legs, wings, fins, or something like that, as that would be just choosing from pre-existing structures that could exist in the "thing". You would be limited in what you could create. To possibly emulate an open system of change that could allow pretty much anything to occur.

This will sound like a stupid idea or that I'm just trying to be silly, but programmatically this is actually not difficult to do. You can look at all sorts of "evolution" programs on youtube, but all of them are limited into basically little creatures that mutate on the screen based on resources and move around, but I haven't seen any that really could emulate anything like a world and simple life forms.

If I was doing it, I would create the basic natural laws of the simulated environment. I would make something simple like matter and matter defines itself based on the idea of protons, electrons, etc. Matter can be combined together with something akin to energy, which makes more complex matter from simple matter based on its electrons and such following basic rules of attracting and repelling charges. If you break up matter from complex matter to simple matter, energy is released into the environment (much like sodium and chlorine can combine to make salt, and if you heat salt up and pass electricity through it, you can separate it into sodium and chlorine again).

And that's it for that. I don't worry about creating all the molecules and complex atoms. I'd create simple matter, which was just some numbers indicating that it was different than other matter. In the environment, energy can combine simple matter and you can return to simple matter by releasing energy. All that would happen is matter and energy would interact in the simulated world and based on the natual laws things would occur depending on how I created the environment.

Energy would enter the simulated environment now and then, similar to the earth and the sun. Energy would increase in some parts of the simulation environment and cause matter to interact, and in other parts of the simulation energy would decrease, which might cause complex matter to break down and release energy. I don't know, the environment would just be reacting to it in some way. It doesn't matter, because I'm just setting up the basic natural laws of the simulation. Maybe it would create self-replicating matter than would combine and break apart matter floating around into patterns, that would continue to replicate breaking apart and coming together over and over. There are actually computer programs that do this and with no more than a couple lines of code describing how things interact and replicating patterns emerge that continue to replicate themselves.

I'm not interested in ambiogenisis or spontaneous creation of "life" or whatever that would mean. I'm lazy and not going to wait around to see if or when that could occur or how long that would take to do anything interesting even if it could occur. I'm interested in simulating evolution, so I would cheat and create a coded DNA pattern and the potential simple bacteria like life form that would be created from those DNA instructions.

The simple potential life form would be like a basic unicellular bacteria. In the program, the life form is represented by a DNA structure which would just be a list of a few random combinations of different types of matter. The life form has a DNA structure, and an imperfect method of replicating itself.

Look at real DNA; it has nucleotides with nucleobases with just four things, either guanine (G), adenine (A), thymine (T), or cytosine (C). From these four things you can create proteins that do amazing things that affect how a cell interacts with the environment. These complex proteins apparently can create all manner of ways to interact with the world around it.

That's it. I'm done. I don't really need to do anything else.

I would execute the simulation and see what happens.

Now I have no idea how to simulate proteins interacting and folding into shapes based on DNA. I don't really know how energy and mass interact other than basic chemistry of molecules forming and interacting together. I don't know how science wants to explain how life came into being. I don't know what even constitutes a good environment for life to live in, because the only one I can think of is the planet I live on, which I'm apparently able to live on.

So when the program runs, its would do this. It would create the environment into existence. Much like the great differences between planets, the environment would be generated new. Some planets rain methane, have water, are nothing but barren rock, rain diamonds and sulphuric acid, are hundreds of degrees that melts rock or are freezing cold.

So all these randomly generated simulated environments would be created, different natural laws, different types of matter, different energy levels that cause matter to interact, different effects of mass on each other. The closest analogy would be, different universes are being created with different natural laws of physics, chemistry, electromagnetism, whatever. In these universes a planet (our simulated environment) is created. In this simulation energy comes and goes (much like a planet orbiting a sun) which can cause reactions between matter coming together to create complex matter that reacts with each other in complex ways based on the natural laws, and some of that complex matter de-constructs to simple matter and might release some energy, that effects some other matters...

When the simulation starts, a big burst of energy is put into it, which causes a great deal of chaos. Matter would be forming and breaking down and coming together attracting and repelling and undergoing half-lives and eventually settling down into a state of homoeostasis based on the energy coming into the system from the sun. There would be a mix of complex and simple matter, mostly clumped together in various ways as they interacted and cooled down from the intial energy burst (which in the program is just a number that sets everything interacting with each other).

Once everything has stabalized, however long that takes, then potential life forms could be tested.

Now assuming there is actually anyone that read this far, you might be wondering what any of this has to do with anything showing some evolution and assuming I'm completely insane.

If I understand the basic concept of biological evolution, then the life that exists is, in general, the life that can most successfully thrive in its environment and adapt to changes in its environment. Some life can only exist in very specific places, in limited conditions, and light changes to its environment can kill it. Other life, like bacteria, can exist almost anywhere, including on and in humans, where there are ten times as many bacteria then we have cells in our bodies in our guts and on our skin. Fragile forms of life would seem to require stable environments, and stability is important in the exploitation portion of simulated evolution.

Once the world is stabilized, then potential lifeforms are created all over the simulation, which has different matter and energy and is in various states of activity in different places. The DNA will be read and the life form created based on that DNA code. Complex matter will be created that represents the sequence. Life will attempt to come into existence.

Now what will happen is, everything will die. Most likely flash into a burst of fire or be immediately destroyed and matter around it rips it apart based on the natural laws of that universe.

The reason, of course, is because that data wasn't meaningful in that environment. We wear wet suits and tanks underwater to live and space suits to protect us in outer space. If a human just appeared underwater or in space it would die very quickly. Out bodies are not designed to live in those environment. You might as well send a cat to Jupiter and see if it lives.

And that's what is happening here. I am letting the simulation create worlds, create life, and try to match the two together. It will fail over and over as DNA instructions pop life into being and is immediately destroyed.

So I make the universe apply exploitation and exploration and evolve itself. At some point the world and the DNA instructions will create something. Something that might last a microsecond longer than everything else. Perhaps it arrives at some place in the world where its near some simple matter that doesn't react to it. Maybe the structures the DNA created prevent it from being ripped apart or actually absorb energy from the environment and cause its complex matter to change in some way that keeps it together.

Data loves patterns. Data is almost always in patterns. And almost all data is meaningful in some way.
 
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digitalgoth

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Part 3



As soon as some combination of a world and a life form manage to gain a a foothold, that pattern will ripple through all the potential worlds and life forms, and that combination will be blended and mutated to create millions of versions of similar life forms and worlds to create something that can last just a little bit longer.

That's step one, to successfully get a life form to exist in a world without exploding.

Of course that means nothing. A chunk of matter floating around does very little, but we have managed to get two different things, natural laws and the environment to coexist with a life form without destroying it. At this point we're still just creating our universe so nothing emulating evolving life has occurred.

The system will continue blending world after world and life forms together until, possibly, the complex chunk of matter interacts with something in the world that causes a change. Maybe a bit of complex matter the DNA created breaks down into something smaller and releases some energy and starts reading the encoded DNA and creates a copy of itself. Perhaps two similar life forms bump into each other and through a combination of their encoded complex matter and some environmental energy causes the two complex chunks of matter to stick together and form a simple colony of life forms, bound together because of some aspect of the environment that allowed that to happen.

It is possible that these clumps of complex matter may become thick enough that some on the inside aren't exposed to the environment any more, and the ones on the outside that are affected by the environment change when interacting with the environment transforming into energy or simpler matter, and since it's matter that is similar to our life form, it might cause an internal change where it replicates the pattern. The DNA coding has slowly grown from all these slight changes. Due to the imperfect duplication, the DNA has been exploited and explored by the system to create complex matter that for some reason started sticking to each other and forming bonds and interacting with the environment, breaking down complex matter into simpler matter and energy, or building up complexity that just happened to for some reason make it last longer than previous ones, or became self sustaining.

I have no idea what that type of thing would be created, just that the system would eventually blend worlds and laws and our complex matter together in synchronisation.

Now this isn't life. It still hasn't emulated anything. All this work is just to get a million worlds and life forms to be "possible" to exist but the simulation actually hasn't started yet. If at some point the system pairs a world, a life form, and the building blocks of that create that life form, forms a pattern where that pattern starts replicating itself. Once the pattern replicates itself, and what it replicates can continue to replicate the pattern, then we might have a simple precursor of a life form that may evolve.

This sounds complex, but in actuality this is just a simulation. The world may be a small two dimensional grid of space that complex matter interacts with. It could be as tiny as a droplet with a tiny number of types of matter in it. The DNA sequence may be only 5 chunks of matter long. All that matters is that the environment and our complex matter do not destroy themselves. Our pattern of DNA causes itself to replicate that same pattern repeatedly, and that replication process has the capability, because of the environment, to make mistakes a tiny percentage of the time it replicates.

The final step would be, in observing an emulation of macro evolution, would be for the life form to manipulate the environment. At that point I believe evolution would be observed in the simulation. That manipulation could be anything. The DNA creates a chunk of matter than when exposed to energy makes it change position in space in he world. Or the life form attaches itself to some matter in the environment and replicates, causing replicated life forms to cling to some matter in the environment as well, slowly growing in size into a colony and using the environment to do so by absorbing energy and matter.

At this point the world and life form blending ends (for this particular instance of the simulation), the system is now running on its own. The life form has the abilitiy to replicate itself and the interact with the world to transform itself, as well as transform the world. Because the DNA replication is imperfect, the pattern will subtly change over time. It may cause a fatal mutation, it may cause a mutation that does nothing beneficial or negative at that moment, or it adds new ways of interacting with the world and transforming matter and energy and other life forms.

Now of course it may still die in seconds. It may over duplicate and overpopulate and consume all resources. The world may start creating some complex matter than proves fatal to the tiny life form. Maybe none will every be created that ever get to this point.

In the end all that this simulation does is constantly change a lot of numbers, indicating changes in energy, matter, and our life form, which is just some energy and matter, which in the end is just some math, which is the language of the universe.


As an example of why such a system could feasibly work:

Neural networks are basically a computer model of the brain, where there are connections between the neurons which receive energy from neurons connected to itself, and send energy from itself to other neurons. Sometimes it send information along and sometimes it doesn't depending on whether the incoming energy is at a sufficient threshold. Neural networks in computers model the brain to classify things, identify things, and are pretty much just showing statistical significance of the information coming in transforming to information going out. If you've ever used a fingerprint reader or read about facial recognition, that's what neural networks can be used for. They are a way to let computers "think" similarly to how the brain does.

I've used genetic algorithms to not only let a neural network evolve to solve a problem or identify something, but also used them to build completely different neural networks topologies, with different numbers of neurons, neural connections, weights, and activation functions (which transform information from one neuron to other neurons in different ways). I don't know the best design of a neural network as they are very data dependent. However I know genetic algorithms can optimize things, and find answers when I have NO idea what the answer is, however I know a good answer when I see it.

By utilizing genetic algorithms, and the principles of exploiting good neual netoworks and exploring different structures of the neural networks I can easily detect which neural networks do what I want more accurately than ones that don't and I can rank them accordingly. Or rather, the computer can rank them. I can sit a drink coffee and pretend to be smart. I don't have to be, because I use the computer to solve problems, not solve the problem myself.

I can run the genetic algorithm several times and the neural networks the genetic algorithm comes up with are completely different in every aspect of how they are structured because they all evolved differently from different starting points, yet all all the neural networks, despite their structural differences, can all solve the problem being presented to it because there isn't just one way to solve the problem.

In this thread my initial question was about I had seen evolution discussions saying genetic algorithms didn't work or words to that effect. It was a misunderstanding of what Dembski was criticizing (and some people had repeated incorrectly) that was confusing me. It seemed to imply that there is no new information conveyed by mutation in the genetic algorithm.

I've never been sure what "new information" means "complex specified" or not, and I'm a data scientist. All I know is when data appears meaningful or not, which is mostly the realm of statistical analysis, rather than meaningless data.

There is something that allows me to believe that mutation can provide new information using genetic algorithms.

I am horrible at tic-tac-toe. Children routinely beat me. The only way I'll get a draw is if I follow the exact sequence of moves and counter moves of the nine squares that I look at on the internet, or I pay the child off with promises of candy.

I created a neural network for playing tic-tac-toe. I have no idea how the neural network should be set up to accomplish this. Now working with neural networks all the time I have some fairly good ideas of how it could be constructed, but I lose, so who's to say it wouldn't play as horrible as I do? Sure, I could just program the rules to follow the "if x is here then o should be here", but there are a large number of possible ways a game can happen and a number of rules to follow and I'd have to write every single one into it.

So I did what I've done with other projects. I let the computer figure it out. I used a genetic algorithm to create neural network structures, weights, activation functions, and then just let it run, continuously playing endless tic-tac-toe games and exploiting neural network strategies that work, and once in a great while, mutating its neural network strucure in different ways (more neurons, different connections, etc.).

I went with this approach because I'm very lazy. I could work on other things, while the computer evolved tic-tac-toe strategies in the background. And post very long messages on threads here apparently.

There was no stopping criteria, just allowing it to get more effective strategies I played against it. I cannot win against it. It beats me regularly. I cannot offer it candy. It will fight to a draw even when I follow the perfect strategy of moves on the internet. Not only that, but it evolved a behaviour that I hated. It was screwing with me. When I played against it, it would always block any attempt for me to construct a winning line of three Xs. But it wouldn't always try to win. If a move existed where it could win, but it ALSO could block me AND give itself even more ways to win, it would do so, which is apparently what strategic tic-tac-toe players who are jerks do. I didn't tell it to do it, it decided that its strategy was to always block my attemps, while increasing its ability to win as best possible, but didn't always want to win apparently. It was content with making me lose or draw.

I'm not sure if it qualifies as complex new information being created via mutation, but it certainly seems like it had used mutation beneficially to create a strategy against me which I'd say was an effective use of meaningful data.

To summarize. I programmed nothing having to do with tic-tac-toe. The program, doing nothing but using selection of better strategies it came up with (exploitation), creating a new generation of strategies from its existing genetic structure by blending their genetics, and on rare occasion mutating its genes in new ways (exploration), created a game that can always beat me or fight to a draw. Millions of mutations killed off strategies that weren't healthy enough to survive and win, and very few were beneficial. Strategies that won would occasionally mutate in a lethal way and die off. Sometimes mutations that would better the strategy would end up being lost via another mutation that removed that benefit. But over time the strategies got better and better as it used what I believe to be new information it could optimize to win more often than lose.

The program used less than a thousand lines of code.

This is computer programming. I'm not saying anything about biologic evolution, which I know little about outside of college biology classes. This is what I've observed when you use principles of evolution in genetic algorithms that produce solutions to things by swapping and mutating genetics.

If I designed the simulation I described earlier that allowed for a changing environment following a basic list of natural laws of how matter and energy interact (which could be random natural laws, as long as they are repeatable and consistent that A and B transform to C), and an imperfect method of replicating itself based on a coding style structure of a small amount of matter similar to DNA (which could also be arbitrary) which produce effects, I would be shocked if some sort of thing didn't eventually come into being in the environment that replicated itself and consumed resources in the environment, and that as this thing replicated and copied over and over that the offspring didn't start to act differently and start changing themselves in different ways that caused them to survive longer. They would be different, but still have been descendants of that initial life form that appeared. I'd be shocked if after generations of exploitation and exploration, that some of the descendants didn't become more complex, some didn't become less complex, some didn't change at all, and most died out. At some point I would think that instead of just interacting with the molecules around it and replicating itself, it would start manipulating the molecules in the environment for its own benefit that allowed it to more effectively replicate itself and last longer before failing. Those that survived longer, would have higher populations and those that didn't would disappear.

I say this because all those things occur in computer systems that use these techniques. The tic-tac-toe neural networks did nothing at first but random things, winning, losing, drawing were completely arbitrary. However at some point something happened, and one started responding if an X was in the corner. Or always chose the center square as its first move. Whatever it was gave it an edge over the other ones and that information spread through the population and started optimizing based on the success.

I'm not going to state that's how biologic evolution works, but I do know how computer systems work that are based on the basic concepts of exploitation and exploration of information from random changes, and they can and do evolve to solve problems with no required interaction from the programmer after setting up the initial conditions.

Source: I'm not an atheist, I'm a data scientist who believes quite strongly in God. But I do believe information and complexity can come from nothing but random chance in computer programs that are written to utilize it.
 
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digitalgoth

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Digitalgoth, I'm afraid you just wasted a lot of time and energy.
Juvenissun doesn't read long posts. Probably because his attention span isn't big enough.

Some people probably have never known what a neural network or genetic algorithm is, although you hear about them on the news now and then when Google or Facebook creates some complex neural network to do such and such. or what the foundational basis of why genetic algorithms are used to solve problems. So maybe some information was spread :)

I think I will write that simulator, and slowly add complexity to the environment and the types of natural laws that can make up the environment, and see how small a sequence can be that might be able to evolve itself into different kinds of life forms simultaneously.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I think I will write that simulator, and slowly add complexity to the environment and the types of natural laws that can make up the environment, and see how small a sequence can be that might be able to evolve itself into different kinds of life forms simultaneously.

I attempted a similar simplistic thing once.

The overall goal was to have a "world" with different "regions", which were genetically isolated from eachother. Each "region" had food sources that could be consumed when certain conditions were met. The "world" had an API which could trigger random events (by clicking buttons while the simulation was running). Some of these events were analogous to natural disasters (severe stress on 1 or more "regions"), migrations (taking a part of the population of one region and moving them to another), etc...

I started out with only herbivores (so they could "survive" on the available food sources but did not hunt and eat eachother). That worked fairly well... No matter how many times I ran the simulation, the populations quickly stabilised around 200 individuals per region - wich would increase or decrease as I tinkered with the amount of available food in the region.

It was pretty interesting to see what happened if a migration from one region to another was triggered. The increase in competition in the new region triggered quite rapid evolutionary changes in those defending their territory. To clarify: I built it in such a way that as food sources were consumed, it became harder and harder to find the remaining food sources, so there would be some selective pressure on ability to find still available food. As a new species invaded the region, competition went up. So for one to dominate the other, it had to become better at finding food. Sometimes, these changes didn't happen and then the native population was quickly dominated by the invading species. Only on rare occasions did the native as well as the invading species find a way to coexist (in smaller populations though, as they had to share the limited food sources).

Then I tried introducing carnivores. At this point, it became very complex and I never succeeded in getting the numbers down (I must admit that I didn't try very hard due to lack of time). Herbivores were always all killed by generation 7. Surviving carnivores then went extinct in the next generation (to start with, carnivores could only hunt herbivores).

It was a fun and educational exercise though :thumbsup:
 
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juvenissun

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There is in your original request, since you were refering to the split between chimps and humans. Which is the result of a population split resulting in 2 groups being genetically isolated from eachother, each of which needs to survive and reproduce in an area with different selection pressures.

I did not change the goalpost at all:

Original group: chimps
Conditions of "the track" (environment) changed
Consequence: chimp group are still good; but human group appeared.
Nothing is isolated at all during the whole process.

How do you program a similar situation in GA? Please make your answer simple and short. If I have question, I will ask again.
 
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digitalgoth

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I attempted a similar simplistic thing once.



I started out with only herbivores (so they could "survive" on the available food sources but did not hunt and eat eachother). That worked fairly well... No matter how many times I ran the simulation, the populations quickly stabilised around 200 individuals per region - wich would increase or decrease as I tinkered with the amount of available food in the region.

Then I tried introducing carnivores. At this point, it became very complex and I never succeeded in getting the numbers down (I must admit that I didn't try very hard due to lack of time). Herbivores were always all killed by generation 7. Surviving carnivores then went extinct in the next generation (to start with, carnivores could only hunt herbivores).

It was a fun and educational exercise though :thumbsup:

Isn't it fun when things like that happen? I love digging into it and trying to see WHY it does that. What causes the imbalance? Instead of reaching homoeostasis with a balance of herbivores and carnivores, it swings one way or another. I love weird data like that.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I have corrected this nonsense at least 3 times in this thread alone.
I think Einstein defined "insanity" as "doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results". I guess I'm insane then. Let's try one more time...

I did not change the goalpost at all:

Original group: chimps
Conditions of "the track" (environment) changed
Consequence: chimp group are still good; but human group appeared.
Nothing is isolated at all during the whole process.

HUMANS DID NOT EVOLVE FROM CHIMPS.

Humans and chimps SHARE A PRIMATE ANCESTOR. This ancestor was NOT A CHIMP and NOT A HUMAN.

Let's use the name "Ancient Primate" for the common ancestor of both.
Now... read carefully.

You have a population of Ancient Primates.
This population splits in 2 groups. Now you have 2 populations of ancient primates. These groups do not interbreed, they are genetically isolated from one another and live in different environments.

One group goes on to evolve into chimps.
The other group evolves into humans.

That's how it works. For a species to bring forth 2 seperate subspecies, the original population needs to split and become genetically isolated so that both groups speciate independently from one another.


Once more for extra clarity:
For population A to bring forward sub-species B and C, the following must happen:
- A splits in 2 groups, A1 and A2
- A1 is genetically isolated from A2. Meaning: no member of A1 reproduces with a member of A2 or vice versa.
- A1 and A2 stay genetically isolated from eachother for a sufficient amount of generations

RESULT:
A1 evolves into sub-species B
A2 evolves into sub-species C.


Population A will not bring forth B and C if population A never splits into 2 genetically isolated groups.


How do you program a similar situation in GA?

You don't, because it doesn't work that way.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I did not change the goalpost at all:

Original group: chimps
Conditions of "the track" (environment) changed
Consequence: chimp group are still good; but human group appeared.
Nothing is isolated at all during the whole process.

Even if we ignore your disturbing and embarassing error of claiming that humans evolved from chimps and assume for a second that they did, then your logic is still completely warped.

If humans are an off-shoot of chimps, then it would STILL be required that a group of chimps SPLITS from the larger chimp population and retreat into a GENETICALLY ISOLATED place. As long as there is interbreeding, you will not end up with 2 different species.

How the hell can you not get that?
 
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digitalgoth

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If humans are an off-shoot of chimps, then it would STILL be required that a group of chimps SPLITS from the larger chimp population and retreat into a GENETICALLY ISOLATED place. As long as there is interbreeding, you will not end up with 2 different species.

How the hell can you not get that?

This. What he said.

As long as interbreeding is allowed to occur, then the genetic information will continue to circulate among the members of the population.

If you want to grow smaller and smaller chihuahuas, you don't keep letting them breed with great danes, you separate them from getting their genetics screwed up. This is a requirement of agriculture and animal husbandry for millennia.

These days we have created creatures that literally can't live on their own, they are utterly dependent on us for survival. The type of turkeys eaten in the US for thanksgiving have to be artificially inseminated by man because they are incapable of breeding on their own. They've been so fattened up, with an emphasis on size and muscle growth, that if they were all let loose they would all die and would cease to exist. For food, we've engineered a creature and mutated their genetics so much that its gone from being a wild game bird to a symbiotic species that is dependent on a completely different species to propagate.
 
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juvenissun

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Even if we ignore your disturbing and embarassing error of claiming that humans evolved from chimps and assume for a second that they did, then your logic is still completely warped.

If humans are an off-shoot of chimps, then it would STILL be required that a group of chimps SPLITS from the larger chimp population and retreat into a GENETICALLY ISOLATED place. As long as there is interbreeding, you will not end up with 2 different species.

How the hell can you not get that?

I guess you are right about the interbreeding.
But that kind of isolation is very unlikely for whatever the monkey species was.
As a result, human evolved from monkey is not possible.

Besides, mutation happened in individuals are all different, it is extremely unlikely that "a group of chimps" mutated in the same way. So your "split the group" algorithm is also not a real one. You may try to let every individual mutate on its own way and see what happen. May be you would end up with just one survival in a group of 100. And that lucky one would eventually die off.
 
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sfs

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I guess you are right about the interbreeding.
But that kind of isolation is very unlikely for whatever the monkey species was.
As a result, human evolved from monkey is not possible.

Besides, mutation happened in individuals are all different, it is extremely unlikely that "a group of chimps" mutated in the same way. So your "split the group" algorithm is also not a real one. You may try to let every individual mutate on its own way and see what happen. May be you would end up with just one survival in a group of 100. And that lucky one would eventually die off.
Yikes. Nothing you've written here makes any sense. Why on earth would you think it very unlikely that a single monkey or ape species could become separated into two geographically separated groups that could no longer interbreed? That kind of thing happens all the time.

As for mutations, you've completely misunderstood evolution. A group of chimps don't mutate the way; one of them has a mutation, and then that mutation gradually spreads in the population from generation to generation.

Good grief.
 
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Loudmouth

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I guess you are right about the interbreeding.
But that kind of isolation is very unlikely for whatever the monkey species was.

Tell that to chimps and bonobos that are currently separated by the Congo River.

Added by edit:

Just found this nice little paper:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v486/n7404/full/nature11128.html

It contains a discussion of the data showing the divergence of the chimp and bonobo genomes, as well as this nice little diagram showing the distribution of the bonobo and chimp populations. Once again, we see that genetic isolation due to geographic barriers does happen, even in species from our kind, the Hominidae.

nature11128-f1.2.jpg


As a result, human evolved from monkey is not possible.

Why, because you deem something impossible that we see happening all of the time in nature?

Besides, mutation happened in individuals are all different, it is extremely unlikely that "a group of chimps" mutated in the same way.

You and your cousins have shared mutations that are not found in outside of you and your cousins. Do you know why? Because you inherited them from your common ancestor.

There is this thing called inheritance that causes descendants to share the same mutations. You might want to look into it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I guess you are right about the interbreeding.
But that kind of isolation is very unlikely for whatever the monkey species was.

It really isn't.
As LM said, chimps and bonobo's are separated by a simple river.
Ancestral species off Kangaroos got separated from the rest when the continents drifted apart (which is why you only find kangaroos in australia).

Even in humans, you can see this very proces take place. In our case, the separation was caused simply by a group of people migrating to other places.

Why is it, do you think, that simply by looking at a face, you can tell where the geographic ancestry of a person lies?

As a result, human evolved from monkey is not possible.

:doh:

Besides, mutation happened in individuals are all different, it is extremely unlikely that "a group of chimps" mutated in the same way.

:doh:

Mutations happen in individuals, yes. They then reproduce with peers and pass on their mutation. The off spring then does the same. And so on and so on. And then after a sufficient amoutn of generations, the mutation achieves "fixation". Ie: part of the genome.


You may try to let every individual mutate on its own way and see what happen.

Every individual DOES have its own sets of mutations. It's called the mutation rate. Humans on average have about 175 of them if I remember correctly. Then natural selection kicks in and the whole process starts over.

You really should study up on biology 101 one of these days.


May be you would end up with just one survival in a group of 100. And that lucky one would eventually die off.

This not sense does make.
 
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