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Evolution??!

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apenman

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A friend of mine wrote this. I don't have time to go over it now, but I thought some of you might. It's too long for one post so see part A & B.

EVOLUTION ASSESSMENT



Evolution is called a science, yet many refute this claim, saying evolution has no true scientific foundations whatsoever. The people who make this claim are by and large creationists, and many who refute the theory of evolution are, in fact, scientists with degrees. This is quite unknown to the general populace, who are taught evolution all through school and are led to believe this is a thoroughly substantiated science. The creationist camp is quite bothered that such a flimsy theory is given so much weight in school, whereas such a plausible theory as the science of creation is given no exposure to students whatsoever. Furthermore, students fail tests if they refuse to answer evolution questions with an accepted evolution theory answer rather than a scientifically-observed answer. Creation scientists feel creationism should be given equal time for students to be able to make educated choices. Is evolution a flimsy theory, or does it actually stand up to scrutiny based on known

The evolution doctrine begins with the Big Bang theory, which states that all matter was originally compressed into one small point in space. The size of this point varies with the theorist, from a giant star to a pea-sized object and even to an atom-sized object or even smaller. Some have even theorized this object had virtually no mass at all. This is tantamount to saying all matter came from nothing. Already this sounds a bit illogical. This compressed object at some point blew up, rapidly expanding and creating all atomic matter. It spread across the universe like one great nebula, swirling as gravity acted upon each particle. This swirling mass took on the basic structure of galaxies, forming stars with nebulous material around them from which planets were formed. The heavier atoms attracted by the more intense gravity at the center of the solar system turned into the inner rocky planets while the lighter, gassy atoms further from this source of gravity formed into the gas gi

Einstein theorised that sources of intense gravity would bend light. This theory has been proven with the observation of "lensing". This occurs when a star is directly behind an intense source of gravity, like another star. The gravity of the object will bend the light of the star behind it creating a double image of that star, one above and one below the source of gravity. This observation proved that an intense enough source of gravity would deny the escape of light from the source, in other words a "black hole". The reason this information hurts evolution is because all matter had to come from the initial explosion. Since all matter was in this point, the gravity would have been trillions of times stronger than a black hole and light could not escape it. Therefore if light could escape it neither could matter because another law shows that matter cannot exceed the speed of light, and matter would have to attain multiples of the speed of light to escape. This is an incred Immediately preceding the big bang all of space would be at absolute zero including the "matter" about to explode. At absolute zero, all motion ceases, and no energy exists. If this is the case, how can something with no heat, and therefore no energy (and apparently no mass) explode, create heat, raise the average temperature of the universe three degrees and create all mass? It was first thought that intense gravity would cause a big bang but it is now known that such an object would only collapse and continue collapsing! It makes you wonder why the Big Bang theory still stands.

Even if there was a big bang two more observed laws act upon the matter. What would exist would be matter chaos, which would be quickly followed by heat death. Both these terms are used to describe what happens when matter is scattered completely, and energy becomes unavailable for use. The formation of solar systems is really a problem too. Theory states that the heavier atoms formed closer to the sources of gravity forming the rocky planets, and the lighter elements further away formed the gassy giants. If this is the case why is the sun composed of almost entirely helium and hydrogen atoms; the lightest atoms in existence? The big bang theory does not stand up to scrutiny and must be discarded. Another, suitable, theory is needed which encompasses all the observed laws. The next aspect of evolution to look at is the origin of life.



There are three main types of evolution* that theorise on the start of life but basically the theory goes as follows: approximately 4 billion years ago in the primordial soup on the primitive earth, chance atoms and molecules formed and linked, forming proteins and amino acids, the substance of life. About 3.9 billion years ago primitive genes, or RNA and DNA about 100 links long formed, which had the ability to reproduce themselves. About a hundred thousand years later the cell formed around these genes creating bacteria. Through minute changes these bacteria changed into various forms of single and multi-celled organisms. These became more complex, developing calcium structures for bones and shells, or hair-like appendages for propulsion. Eventually, through many stages, varieties of fish formed and some that came upon land developed strong fins to navigate on land. The fins eventually formed into legs or wings, and their bodies developed fur and warm blood to adapt to the harsh

Doctor Henry Morris refers to Marcel J. E. Golay’s studies when he states that the minimum number of parts a machine needs to be able to reach into a bin of parts and assemble a fully functioning replica of the machine that built it, is 1500 parts or bits of information to complete the task (Morris {1988?}P64)(1). This I500 bits also happens to be the " Amount of structure contained in the simplest large protein molecule which, when immersed in a bath of nutrients, can induce the assembly of those nutrients into another large protein molecule like itself and then separate itself from it" (IBID.)(2). If the minimum complexity needed for a creature to reproduce itself is 1500 parts, why do evolutionists propose the first genes had only 100 parts? No such creature has ever been found. Granted this is extremely small, but we’ve found an abundance of 1500 part organisms, so why haven’t any 1000 part creatures been found? It is because ether they don’t exist, or if they ever did exist t

Let’s assume now, that by some as yet unexplained incredible sequence of events, an entire cell complete with all it necessary parts in perfect working order just appeared on the primitive earth. What would we have? It would be a very interesting configuration of atomic particles and structures, a strangely complicated shape in an orderless world. A blob of uniquely constructed elemental material contrasting strangely against its random backdrop. It would now decompose, quickly deteriorate until all trace of it disappeared, and we would be right back where we started! Why? Because it is missing the essential ingredient: life. Heat would decompose it faster, electricity would destroy it and radiation would ruin an already perfect structure. No reasonable theory exists to explain the occurrence of life. Evolutionists presume the cell spontaneously came to life, and incredibly in regards to dead people, they suggest that not enough corpses have been watched to say with absolute certa So now this first spontaneous cell must also be alive with no satisfactory explanation for its existence, for the mechanism of evolution to go to work on it. Evolution methods are said to work by three possible ways: natural selection (choosing the best mates); survival of the fittest (the weeding out of the weak or deformed); or beneficial mutations (through radiation); or all three. If we can show that none of these methods will create a new species from our 1500 part virus, then evolution is not a valid theory.

Believe it or not, natural selection is now being abandoned by many evolutionists as a cause of evolution, because all this process does is insure that those which go on to propagate the species are merely the ‘fittest’. It does nothing to explain how they became fit in the first place. Natural selection only serves to strengthen a species. An analogy might be like using glasses to make an image sharper and take away the ‘fuzzy edges’. If natural selection were a method for altering a species, then survival of the weak and the misfit would be very dominant in nature, because it is presumed that such is what new species arose from. Evolutionists now reluctantly conclude this is a safeguard built into every species designed to maintain genetic stability, exactly the opposite of what they are looking for.



Some have toted that a new species has occurred through survival of the fittest with the Peppered moth of England, including National Geographic. (Sisson Mar. 1980 pg. 400,401)(6) Around 1830 the white peppered moth began to disappear because the coal from the industrial revolution was soiling the trees making the white variety easy prey for birds. Thus the black and gray sort remained. This is not a true new species because the black can still mate with the white. Also since the cleaning of the air from all the coal soot, the trees have cleaned up allowing the white type to return in large numbers once again. Saying this white variety of peppered moth is a new species is like suggesting that if lions liked to catch and eat only blond or light haired or even light skinned humans that what would remain would be a new species of human. This is really absurd. All humans can mate with all other humans regardless of tones, just as all peppered moths can. And once lions were eliminated The only ways to change DNA molecules are to cut, add to, or radiate causing mutation. Scientists have found surprisingly that adding or cutting length to DNA does nothing to create new species. Every part of the molecules length is needed to make the same species, and just clipping it wont make a eel into a duck but just a nonreproducing mass of DNA, and adding to the DNA only produces cancerous cells. In fact scientist are baffled as to how DNA actually changed length. The only possibility I can think of is if a virus attached to a so mutated gene that by some fluke they worked. But this stretches even the evolutionists’ mind. Back to our perfectly formed virus.



Believe it or not, the fact that our 1500-part creature is a virus really bugs evolutionists. Why? Because every last virus is completely parasitic! They cannot reproduce unless they have a host cell to attach themselves to, and then when they do they kill the cell! Even if the virus was first it couldn’t reproduce until a more complex cell came along. Scientist argue whether a virus is even alive and describe viruses as chromosomes on the loose. Radiating a virus is no good because changing a single link destroys them. The fact that a 1500 (to as many as 730,000)-part virus cannot possibly procreate, makes it look pretty bleak for the evolutionists fictional 100-part creature. The next least complicated cell on the ladder is the bacteria, with a minimum 1,100,000 links with approximately 75 million atoms arranged in precise order, and this is to come into existence through chance. To go into the odds would be a moot point for one huge reason. The evolutionist doesn’t even want it The third simplest lifeform is the fungi that are not simple at all; they are about 47,000 times more complicated than the virus. In fact some fungi are more complex than man! In fact if man were to evolve to the next highest order based on the complexity of the cell we would become a rose, frog, or a protozoa! Not only does the evolution theory deteriorate upon scrutiny, we also uncover deliberate deception. Take the further quote for example from The Encyclopædia of Science and Technology which suggests simpler organisms have less DNA.

"There are about 2´10-16g of DNA in a bactieriophage, as compared to about 10-14 g in the bacterium escherichia coli and about 3´10-12 g in rat liver cells. Whereas mammalian cells contain about 2-3´109nucleotide pairs of DNA. Amphibian cells vary widely, ranging from less 2´109 to about 1.5´1011nucleotide pairs." (Author, 1971? Vol. 2 p.299)(8)

You may have noticed that they changed the scale of reference from grams of DNA to the actual number DNA nucleotide pairs. This is done purely to deceive because 10-16 appears to be much smaller than 109~11. To really understand the statement we are forced to convert. There are approximately 1021 nucleotide pairs in one gram of DNA Thus mammalian cells contain 2-3x10-12 grams of DNA, or virtually identical to the rat liver cells they describe! They try to suggest that as organisms advance along their evolutionary scale their DNA gets more advanced. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. (See diagram.) To my surprise some protozoa are staggeringly complex having a thousand times more DNA than man!

 
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apenman

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To start the ball rolling and try evolution by mutation, we’ll assume some creature that could reproduce came first. The very first problem we come across is there is too much time to complete the job. That’s right, too much!(Or not enough time if you go into the odds of this ever occurring) My calculator could only make it to 3.33 billion years in stead of the full 3.8, but that’s close enough to illustrate the point. If the one species mutated after 10 million years, creating two, then after 20 million years we could expect both those species to mutate into 4 species, and so on. Perhaps one mutated in just 5 million years, but the other took 15 million, we could still average it to 10 million for any given species. The formula for this over a span of 3.8 billion years would be 1x2379. (My calculator could only get to 1x2332 , which works out to 8.749002896x1099 species on the earth.) Now there are a lot of species on earth; an estimated 30 million, with a full 1,392,485 species

Ramapithecus</U> (also included: Kenyapithecus, Dryopithecus, Oreopithecus, and Limnopithecus) We are told these are the common ancestors of man and ape, yet Dr. Robert Eckhardt (1988?) of Pennsylvania State university concluded that Ramapithecus appeared to be, morphologically, ecologically, and behaviorally already an ape.(Morris p.172)(15) The reason these have been classified as hominid is because of the teeth size. To presume teeth size determines whether a monkey will evolve into man is purely speculation. It has been discovered that a high altitude baboon exists, Theropithecus Galada, which has similar teeth and it is not even remotely human. This whole line of pithecines may actually be just one species. Dr. Eckhardt measured the degree of dental variation from two &#8216;species&#8217; of Dryopithecus compared to Ramapithecus. He also measured several Liberian chimpanzees to determine variation within a single species. In 14 out of 24 the measurements varied more than the fossils, an

Australopithecus</U> (includes A. Afarensis (Lucy), A. Africanus, A. Robustus, A. Boisei (Zinjanthropus) 1 ¾ -3.6 million years old. The skull variation is allowable within a single species, and many suspect just that. When these skulls are lined up with human skulls(Weaver 1985 p. 568-573)(17) one wonders why they are even in the same lineup. Australopithecus Boisei is as far away from Homo Habilis, as any present day ape is from modern man. It is still argued whether this line is really a link to man or just a variety of extinct ape. The suggestion that they walked upright has been strongly discredited by Solly Lord Zuckerman. His research team spent over 15 years studying the anatomy of modern apes, monkeys, humans, and the Australopithecine fossils. He remains totally unpersuaded of their upright status. Whenever someone claimed such a fossil had the ability to walk, his research team studied them to try to prove this, but always ended in failure. Complete skeletons wer

1470 Man</U> (Homo Habilis: 2 million years old.) Richard Leakey had some telling thing to say about his find. "Either we toss out this skull or we toss out our theories of early man." "It simply fits no previous models of human beginnings" " &#8230;leaves in ruins the notion that all early fossils can be arranged in an orderly sequence of evolutionary change.(Leakey 1973 p. 819) (18) For better or worse, 1470 Man has been put in the &#8216;lineup&#8217; even though Zinjanthropus dates at 1.8 million years old. This means &#8216;1470 Man&#8217; predates both of these supposed ancestors. It is interesting to note that originally 1470 Man was dated at 2.8 million years old(IBID. p.819,820,824)(19), but is now dated at 2 million years (Analyzer unknown, 1985 p. 571)(20), presumably to make it better fit, because with the older date it would predate Australopithecus, ruining half the chart! The reason this skull is inserted in the chart is the skull cranial capacity is only 800cc compared with modern mans 1 Java Man, Peking Man, Heidelburg Man, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man </U>All these have been proven to be hoaxes. Java was a gibbon skull, and a human thigh bone, with three different teeth (2 orangutan, 1 human) found 50 feet away. Peking Man was an ape killed by hunters found with the fossils of 100 other animals and ten human skulls. Heidelburg Man was built up from a human jawbone. Piltdown Man was built from a fossil human skull fragment and a recent ape jawbone made to look old, with teeth filed to appear human. It deceived for over 40 years. Nebraska Man was built up from a single tooth, which turned out to be that of an extinct pig. All this and yet two of these &#8216;men&#8217; can still be found in modern evolutionary charts.

Neanderthal Man The skeleton of this individual is stooped. It has been determined that this stoop was caused from rickets, or arthritis, common among the local people where the skeleton was found His brain capacity is equal or greater than modern man. There is really no doubt that this individual was fully human, yet he is still listed on the chart.

Cro-Magnon Man He is at least equal in physical appearance and brain capacity, and could not be distinguished from modern Europeans. So what&#8217;s the difference?

It seems to me that Evolution is indeed a flimsy theory held together only by the sheer will power of the determined evolutionist. It does not even appear to be a valid theory. It really doesn&#8217;t have any scientific basis for its existence. Creationism could be shown to have great credibility and would merit teaching in normal school curriculum. However evolution is so entrenched scientific dogma that only a presidential decree could reinstate it back into normal youth education

* There are three distinct types of evolution: Evolution through chance, Progressive, and Theistic, and all the proponents of each of these types of evolution claim that the methods of evolution could only work through their type. What is unknown to the general public is that authorities of each type can conclusively prove that the other two types are impossible. (Jack T. Chick 1972 "Big Daddy" Chino, California.)

Charroux Robert. 1972 The Mysterious Unknown Corgi edition 1973 London :Transworld Publishers Ltd.

Chick Jack T. 1972Big Daddy? 055-W Chino California :Chick Publications

Gish Duane T. Ph.D. 1978 EVOLUTION? The Fossils Say NO! Public School Edition San Diego,: Creation-Life Publishers

Gore Rick 1976 The Awesome Worlds Within a Cell National Geographic September 1976 Washington D.C.

Leakey Richard E. 1973 Skull 1470 National Geographic June 1973 Washington D.C.

Morris Henry Dr. Scientific Creationism 1988? Edition date Place of Publication :publisher

Ripkin Jeremy (with Ted Howard) 1980 Entropy: A New World View Bantam Edition 1981 New York N.Y. :Viking Press

Sisson Robert F. 1980 Deception: Formula for Survival National Geographic March 1980 Washington D.C.

D
äniken Erik Von 1977 Von Däniken&#8217;s Proof Bantam edition, Great Britain: Souvenir Press

Weaver Kenneth F. 1985 The Search for Our Ancestors National Geographic November 1985 Washington D.C.

Scientific Creationism. By Dr. Henry Morris. Pg. 64 Quoting Marcel J.E Golay

IBID.

IBID. page 47

National Geographic September 1976 page 390

Entropy: Jeremy Ripkin page 43

National Geographic March 1980, page 400

Encyclopaedia of Science and Technology, Volume 2, page 299, 1987 ed.

IBID., Volume 12, pg. 212.

Time magazine, March, 25, 1991, Special add insert.

Discover, April 1990, page 58

The Mysterious Unknown by Robert Charroux Page 54.

Discover, September, 1989, page 14.

Von Danikens Proof, Erik Von Daniken. page 206.

Scientific Creationism, page 66

IBID., Page 172.

IBID. &, Evolution the Fossils Say No, 100-103.

National Geographic November 1985, Pages 568-573.

National Geographic June, 1973, page 819

IBID. Page 819, 820, 824.

National Geographic November, 1985, page 571.

IBID. Page 6

 
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apenman

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seebs said:
What absolute nonsense.

I lack the patience for a point-by-point refutation, but this is quote-mining, lies, misconceptions, and stupidity.
I think I'll wait for the point-by-point part. Although, I totally disagree about the big bang conclusions. I find the big bang theory works quite well.
 
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Loki

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Blarugh. I read the first paragraph, then the bib, and from that alone, I have lost any respect for it. Citing Jack Chick publications is in no way legitimate in the scientific realm. Scientific publications must be peer-reviewed and edited, and none of those are from decent journals. If your friend can find evidence from Science, Nature, or even some third-rate journal, then the essay gains plausibility. But trying to put together a scholarly paper based on magazines that cater to sensationalist science, let alone Jack Chick, is doomed before it begins.
 
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Loki

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Two things preventing me from tearing that pseudoscience to shreds:

1. My real homework, as dry as it may be at the moment, is at least real science.

2. I find evolution to be one of my least favorite scientific areas. I like biochemistry and molecular biology best; pure chem and physics are fascinating, but I'm sort of a math idiot (quit at diff eqs because diff eqs are ugly and suck), so that hinders my ability to study those areas, even botany and geology and meterology are mildly interesting to me. But evolution; I really don't care much about it. Coincidentally (or not), it's the only class I have to take to finish my BS in Bio (which is more fitting than it should be; stupid worthless major).

BTW; is it okay for dried apricots to have darker spots on them? If not, I'll probably be really sick in a few minutes.
 
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Loki

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Ok, just skimming:

First of all, 1500 part. I'm assuming this person means base pairs. I've not heard of base pairs refered to as parts, but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for this.

I don't know what the official name of this logical fallacy is, as I care less for philosophy than I care for evo, but...

Let's assume that 1500 bps are required for replication and life (I don't know if this is true or not). Within this genome are several genes that code for various proteins. A gene need not be the length of the genome. In fact, a genome is probably quite a bit larger than the gene. Even in the plasmids I work with, which are just tiny little circular bits of dna that generally carry a very small number of genes, they have more bps than is necessary for the gene. The gene is not what's required for life and self-replication; the genome is. So, there might be a gene with 100 bps (though I'm not sure how that works since the code reads 3 bps together for one protein, therefore, it should be 102 or 99 bps required), which would give about 33 amino acids, which is indeed a very small protein.

And now i'm going to study some real science with reproducability and peer review and proper citations and statistical significance.

Tschüss (cause I forgot the ASCII for the beta-double ess German thing)
 
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apenman

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Thanks Loki!

I really have no interest in evolution myself, so that's why I posted the paper. It doesn't matter to me weather there is evolution, or evolution combined with divine intervention, or just creation.

I saw the movie with Steven Hawkings not too long ago, "a brief history of time", or something like that, and he said in the film that he didn't have a model of creation that works without God, or words to that effect. So, if the final equation does require God, then God is involved, and that is enough for me. Beyond that, the how, what, when and why of creation is just whatever it is and I have no problem.

Hawkings did say that they will eventually come up with an equation for the universe, and I know he recently released something, but I understand it is quite involved. However, from what he said in the movie it sounds like when they come with the equation, they will know weather, or not, it involves God.

I've given my friend the link to this site, so he can come and defend himself, we'll see if he shows.
 
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I've got 6 more hours of this shift I need to find a diversion for. I'll reply in pieces as I have downtime. Your buddy packs in a lot of misconceptions, bad information and loaded equivocations, so I'm going to have to do it piecemeal rather than address his paragraphs as a whole.

apenman said:
Evolution is called a science, yet many refute this claim, saying evolution has no true scientific foundations whatsoever. The people who make this claim are by and large creationists, and many who refute the theory of evolution are, in fact, scientists with degrees.

And time and time again, their objections are demonstrated to be false, thus they're not "refuting" anything. Also, said scientists usually don't have degrees in biology, geology or fields related to evolution.

Science is a process. A observation is made, a predictive hypothesis is formualted, the prediction is tested and either verified or falsified. That is precisely how evolution is studied, ergo, its science.

apenman said:
This is quite unknown to the general populace, who are taught evolution all through school and are led to believe this is a thoroughly substantiated science. The creationist camp is quite bothered that such a flimsy theory is given so much weight in school, whereas such a plausible theory as the science of creation is given no exposure to students whatsoever.

The creationist camp is a religious movement with a social agenda. A dangerous one at that. The appeal to this vast conspiracy of silence is bogus as creationists have had their day in court, twice in the last thirty years, and it was determined by the court that creationism is nothing more than religious dogma with no basis in science. There is no "theory of creation" either. No one has been able to formulate a creation theory apart from "read Genesis, 'nuff said." Further, in order to be science, a theory must be falsifiable. How does one falsify the creation theory if it existed?

Finally, Young Earth Creationism was a scientifically viable theory that lasted for several centuries until the 1830s when it was falisified by the very Christian geologists who'd set out to find evidence for it.

apenman said:
Furthermore, students fail tests if they refuse to answer evolution questions with an accepted evolution theory answer rather than a scientifically-observed answer. Creation scientists feel creationism should be given equal time for students to be able to make educated choices. Is evolution a flimsy theory, or does it actually stand up to scrutiny based on known

If a student refuses to answer a test question, they should fail a test. The equal time argument has fallen because of chruch/state in Edwards vs. Aguillard (1987). Since creationism is nothing but religious dogma, it does belong in the biology classroom.

apenman said:
The evolution doctrine begins with the Big Bang theory, which states that all matter was originally compressed into one small point in space. The size of this point varies with the theorist, from a giant star to a pea-sized object and even to an atom-sized object or even smaller. Some have even theorized this object had virtually no mass at all. This is tantamount to saying all matter came from nothing. Already this sounds a bit illogical.

A. The Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution. Evolution is biology, not Cosmology or Astrophysics.
B. There is plenty of evidence supporting the Big Bang Theory including the discovery of background radiation by the COBE satellite.
C. If we're looking at illogic, one should know that a straw man and equivocaton are logical fallacies and should be avoided.

apenman said:
This compressed object at some point blew up, rapidly expanding and creating all atomic matter.

Despite the use of "Bang", the BBT does not state that the pre-Universe "blew up," nor does it state that this "explosion" created all matter. Your buddy might want to address the actual Big Bang Theory rather than a straw man.

apenman said:
It spread across the universe like one great nebula, swirling as gravity acted upon each particle. This swirling mass took on the basic structure of galaxies, forming stars with nebulous material around them from which planets were formed. The heavier atoms attracted by the more intense gravity at the center of the solar system turned into the inner rocky planets while the lighter, gassy atoms further from this source of gravity formed into the gas gi

Now we move from Cosmology into Astrophysics, but we're still not discussing evolution yet. The planetary accrettion model works quite well in the Sol system, but we'll need to be able to study other planetary systems before we can validate or falsify it.

apenman said:
Einstein theorised that sources of intense gravity would bend light. This theory has been proven with the observation of "lensing". This occurs when a star is directly behind an intense source of gravity, like another star. The gravity of the object will bend the light of the star behind it creating a double image of that star, one above and one below the source of gravity. This observation proved that an intense enough source of gravity would deny the escape of light from the source, in other words a "black hole". The reason this information hurts evolution is because all matter had to come from the initial explosion. Since all matter was in this point, the gravity would have been trillions of times stronger than a black hole and light could not escape it. Therefore if light could escape it neither could matter because another law shows that matter cannot exceed the speed of light, and matter would have to attain multiples of the speed of light to escape. This is an incred Immediately preceding the big bang all of space would be at absolute zero including the "matter" about to explode. At absolute zero, all motion ceases, and no energy exists. If this is the case, how can something with no heat, and therefore no energy (and apparently no mass) explode, create heat, raise the average temperature of the universe three degrees and create all mass? It was first thought that intense gravity would cause a big bang but it is now known that such an object would only collapse and continue collapsing! It makes you wonder why the Big Bang theory still stands.

Still talking Cosmology and Astrophysics, and adding some Chemistry, but not evolution yet, thus I don't know how his assertions are supposed to "hurt evolution" His rambling all over the place about the expansion of the Universe is a muddled mess and I'm not really sure what point he's trying to make.

apenman said:
Even if there was a big bang two more observed laws act upon the matter. What would exist would be matter chaos, which would be quickly followed by heat death. Both these terms are used to describe what happens when matter is scattered completely, and energy becomes unavailable for use.

The Law of Matter Chaos? The Law of Heat Death? What is he talking about? He really needs to address the Big Bang Theory, and not his straw version of it. And he also needs to bone up on his basic physics.

apenman said:
The formation of solar systems is really a problem too. Theory states that the heavier atoms formed closer to the sources of gravity forming the rocky planets, and the lighter elements further away formed the gassy giants. If this is the case why is the sun composed of almost entirely helium and hydrogen atoms; the lightest atoms in existence? The big bang theory does not stand up to scrutiny and must be discarded. Another, suitable, theory is needed which encompasses all the observed laws. The next aspect of evolution to look at is the origin of life.

He needs to argue the planetary accretion model, not his straw version of it. Here's how it works. The star forms from hydrogen in a nebula and begins exerting gravitational pull on material surrounding it including heavier elements. These elements (and more free hydrogen and helium) accrete into a disk, and clumps eventually form the planets when their own gravity builds up enough for them to form.

None of this has anything to do with the Big Bang Theory though. He's equivocating again. The Big Bang Theory doesn't violate any laws, nor does the Astrophysics of planetary accretion.

Finally, the origin of life is not the theory of evolution. Evolution presupposes life exists in order for it to evolve.

- cont. in part 2.
 
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USincognito

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apenman said:
There are three main types of evolution*

There is 1 (one) theory of evolution that explains the diversity of life we see in the fossil record and living today. There are multiple definitions for the word evolution, and abiogenesis theories are the actual theories that deal with the origin of life.

apenman said:
that theorise on the start of life but basically the theory goes as follows: approximately 4 billion years ago in the primordial soup on the primitive earth, chance atoms and molecules formed and linked, forming proteins and amino acids, the substance of life.

How prescient the people were at Talk Origins. I suggest your buddy read the essay I got this graphic from. That would be a straw man again. The real theories about abiogenesis give a more realistic look.

views.gif


apenman said:
About 3.9 billion years ago primitive genes, or RNA and DNA about 100 links long formed, which had the ability to reproduce themselves. About a hundred thousand years later the cell formed around these genes creating bacteria.

I want to see the citation on the "hundred thousand years" claim. The original, not the second or third hand creationist propaganda it was culled from. The earliest fossils were found in Australia and date from 3.5 billion years ago. Some other finds might push this back to 3.8 billion.

apenman said:
Through minute changes these bacteria changed into various forms of single and multi-celled organisms.

Recent fossil finds give evidence about the development of multi-cellular life 55-580 million years ago.

apenman said:
These became more complex, developing calcium structures for bones and shells, or hair-like appendages for propulsion. Eventually, through many stages, varieties of fish formed and some that came upon land developed strong fins to navigate on land. The fins eventually formed into legs or wings, and their bodies developed fur and warm blood to adapt to the harsh[text missing from original]

Finally! After all that verbiage, we get to something that actually relates to evolution. Guess what, we have transitional fossils from fish to amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals.

apenman said:
Doctor Henry Morris refers to Marcel J. E. Golay’s studies

A. Argument from authority. Henry Morris' PhD is in hydrological engineering, not biology, not biochemistry, not statistics.
B. Instead of quoting Gish's citation, why not actually site Golay?

apenman said:
...when he states that the minimum number of parts a machine needs to be able to reach into a bin of parts and assemble a fully functioning replica of the machine that built it, is 1500 parts or bits of information to complete the task (Morris {1988?}P64)(1). This I500 bits also happens to be the " Amount of structure contained in the simplest large protein molecule which, when immersed in a bath of nutrients, can induce the assembly of those nutrients into another large protein molecule like itself and then separate itself from it" (IBID.)(2). If the minimum complexity needed for a creature to reproduce itself is 1500 parts, why do evolutionists propose the first genes had only 100 parts? No such creature has ever been found. Granted this is extremely small, but we’ve found an abundance of 1500 part organisms, so why haven’t any 1000 part creatures been found? It is because ether they don’t exist, or if they ever did exist t

Argh. Now we're back to abiogenesis. And worse yet, your friend doesn't even cite Morris or Golay correctly. Morris isn't asserting that 1,500 parts are required. Golay's calculations (from what I can glean of the net, since they were published in 1961) was that 1,500 steps are requires for something to self replicate.

If anyone wants to read what he's writing , I found a reference in an Acts and Facts, you note that he's trying to get abiogenesis probabability calculations, which, as shown in the link in part 1 of my reply are highly circumspect. In fact, a little Googling and I found this quote about Morris' citation of Golay.

Morris then draws on an engineer's largely arbitrary idea that 1500 sequential steps are needed to achieve a "protein molecule" (p. 64-65; he cites the woefully outdated Marcel Golay, "Reflections of a Communications Engineer," Analytical Chemistry 33 (June 1961), p. 23). From this Morris calculates the odds against this ever happening as 1 in 10^450. But his equations are totally wrong. In fact, he makes exactly the same mistake as Foster. He does not account for the three fundamental features of natural selection: reproduction, mutation, and selection. He merely multiplies a sequence of probabilities, which is not correct. See Chapter 9 of my review of Foster for more on the math Morris is supposed to use here. Morris also assumes that only one sequence of 1500 steps will begin life--but in fact there may be millions of different sequences that will work, and there may be many different numbers of steps, and any derivation of odds must sum the odds for all possibilities: i.e. the odds for every possible number of steps, from 1 to infinity, and of every arrangement of steps within each number of steps that will produce a reproducing protein. This is impossible to know. Such a statistic cannot be calculated, even using Morris' math.

apenman said:
Let’s assume now,

Hee hee. What do you mean now? :D Sorry for the decorum loss there, now back to the serious issues.

apenman said:
...that by some as yet unexplained incredible sequence of events, an entire cell complete with all it necessary parts in perfect working order just appeared on the primitive earth. What would we have? It would be a very interesting configuration of atomic particles and structures, a strangely complicated shape in an orderless world. A blob of uniquely constructed elemental material contrasting strangely against its random backdrop. It would now decompose, quickly deteriorate until all trace of it disappeared, and we would be right back where we started! Why? Because it is missing the essential ingredient: life. Heat would decompose it faster, electricity would destroy it and radiation would ruin an already perfect structure. No reasonable theory exists to explain the occurrence of life. Evolutionists presume the cell spontaneously came to life, and incredibly in regards to dead people, they suggest that not enough corpses have been watched to say with absolute certa So now this first spontaneous cell must also be alive with no satisfactory explanation for its existence, for the mechanism of evolution to go to work on it.

This entire paragraph is a waste of time for anyone reading it. As has already been adressed above.
A. Abiogenesis is seperate from evolution, so he's not arguing against evolutionary theory.
B. His straw man, "spontaneous" first cell ignores that the process of abiogenesis includes replication. Notice stage 3 on the simplified graphic above "self replicating polymers."
C. We had a thread on abiogenesis in C&E subforum with links discussing the basics of abiogenesis theory.

apenman said:
Evolution methods are said to work by three possible ways: natural selection (choosing the best mates); survival of the fittest (the weeding out of the weak or deformed); or beneficial mutations (through radiation); or all three. If we can show that none of these methods will create a new species from our 1500 part virus, then evolution is not a valid theory.

A. Natural selection is not mating. Natural seclection is the selective pressure of the environment on populations of animals. Those animals best adapted to survive in their environment will produce more and more viable offspring.
B. Survival of the fittest is not weeding out the weak and deformed. It's about those who are better adapted to their environoment, have found an ecological niche, or have developed news weapons in the predator/prey arms race having more babies and having those babies more likely to survive than those less well adapted. It's not about the fittest individual, it's about the fittest population.
C. Mutations are not soley the result of radiation. Putting a mouse in a microwave or pointing a radar gun at your crotch will not cause evolution. Mutations occur when there is a transcription error of DNA. Some will be bad, some will be good, most will be neutral.

cont. -
 
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Sadly your buddy has wasted a lot of time on abiogenesis and not even addressed evolution except tangentally thus far. If this were an oral debate, and his opponent was a Theistic Evoltionist, all his opponent would have to do is say, "God made the first bacteria, or he directed abiogenesis," and everything your buddy's said so far would be gone.

apenman said:
Believe it or not, the fact that our 1500-part creature is a virus really bugs evolutionists. Why? Because every last virus is completely parasitic! They cannot reproduce unless they have a host cell to attach themselves to, and then when they do they kill the cell! Even if the virus was first it couldn’t reproduce until a more complex cell came along. Scientist argue whether a virus is even alive and describe viruses as chromosomes on the loose. Radiating a virus is no good because changing a single link destroys them. The fact that a 1500 (to as many as 730,000)-part virus cannot possibly procreate, makes it look pretty bleak for the evolutionists fictional 100-part creature.

As I pointed out previously, Golay's reference wasn't to a 1,500 part machine, but to a 1,500 step process, it's quite outdated and refers to machinery, not to living organisms. This is also an argument about parasitism and symbiosis which evolution addresses. Also the paragraph break should be where I cut it, since the next discussion turns from parasitism to complexity.

apenman said:
The next least complicated cell on the ladder is the bacteria, with a minimum 1,100,000 links with approximately 75 million atoms arranged in precise order, and this is to come into existence through chance. To go into the odds would be a moot point for one huge reason. The evolutionist doesn’t even want it The third simplest lifeform is the fungi that are not simple at all; they are about 47,000 times more complicated than the virus. In fact some fungi are more complex than man! In fact if man were to evolve to the next highest order based on the complexity of the cell we would become a rose, frog, or a protozoa!

Complexity and odds are meaningless because the chance of something occuring, if it already has is 1:1. The levels of cell complexity don't really have anything to do with evolution though as it's in the cells and DNA that we find our most compelling evidences for evoltion. Also, if he's going to start a new concept, pointing out "deception," he needs to start a new paragraph.

apenman said:
Not only does the evolution theory deteriorate upon scrutiny, we also uncover deliberate deception. Take the further quote for example from The Encyclopædia of Science and Technology which suggests simpler organisms have less DNA.

"There are about 2´10-16g of DNA in a bactieriophage, as compared to about 10-14 g in the bacterium escherichia coli and about 3´10-12 g in rat liver cells. Whereas mammalian cells contain about 2-3´109nucleotide pairs of DNA. Amphibian cells vary widely, ranging from less 2´109 to about 1.5´1011nucleotide pairs." (Author, 1971? Vol. 2 p.299)(8)

You may have noticed that they changed the scale of reference from grams of DNA to the actual number DNA nucleotide pairs. This is done purely to deceive because 10-16 appears to be much smaller than 109~11. To really understand the statement we are forced to convert. There are approximately 1021 nucleotide pairs in one gram of DNA Thus mammalian cells contain 2-3x10-12 grams of DNA, or virtually identical to the rat liver cells they describe! They try to suggest that as organisms advance along their evolutionary scale their DNA gets more advanced. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. (See diagram.) To my surprise some protozoa are staggeringly complex having a thousand times more DNA than man!

I'm sorry to glibly dismiss this, but a larger amount of DNA does not mean more complex. It just means a larger amount of DNA. And I tried searching on the web for The Encyclopaedia of Science and Technology, but couldn't find anything. Could he provide an ISBN for me so I could do some more checking on this one?

Well, in the entire Opening Post, your buddy spent part of one paragraph directly addressing the theory of evolution. He does a little bit better staying on topic in the second post, but he's still factually in error.
 
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apenman's friend said:
To start the ball rolling and try evolution by mutation, we’ll assume some creature that could reproduce came first. The very first problem we come across is there is too much time to complete the job. That’s right, too much!(Or not enough time if you go into the odds of this ever occurring) My calculator could only make it to 3.33 billion years in stead of the full 3.8, but that’s close enough to illustrate the point. If the one species mutated after 10 million years, creating two, then after 20 million years we could expect both those species to mutate into 4 species, and so on. Perhaps one mutated in just 5 million years, but the other took 15 million, we could still average it to 10 million for any given species. The formula for this over a span of 3.8 billion years would be 1x2379. (My calculator could only get to 1x2332 , which works out to 8.749002896x1099 species on the earth.) Now there are a lot of species on earth; an estimated 30 million, with a full 1,392,485 species

The problem with simple parabolic growth curves is they don't take things into account. Often those things wind up being fatal flaws in the calculation. Take for example the of noted calculations that at a certain growth rate, a family of 8, 4000 years ago would give us 6.3 billion in today. Hey that's what the world population is today. Yeah, except that that growth rate meant there were 1,200 people on Earth when the pyramids were built and 250,00 at the time of Jesus birth. Of course the city of Rome alone had a million at that time so this population curve calculation is worthless.

Did your calculations take into account mass extinctions at the end of the Vendian, Cambrian, Ordovician, Devonian, Permian, Triassic, Cretaceous and Teritiary? If not, your numbers are worthless.

Well, my work shift is over. I might address some more of this at home or later tonight.
 
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apenman's buddy said:
Ramapithecus</U> (also included: Kenyapithecus, Dryopithecus, Oreopithecus, and Limnopithecus) We are told these are the common ancestors of man and ape, yet Dr. Robert Eckhardt (1988?) of Pennsylvania State university concluded that Ramapithecus appeared to be, morphologically, ecologically, and behaviorally already an ape.(Morris p.172)(15) The reason these have been classified as hominid is because of the teeth size. To presume teeth size determines whether a monkey will evolve into man is purely speculation. It has been discovered that a high altitude baboon exists, Theropithecus Galada, which has similar teeth and it is not even remotely human. This whole line of pithecines may actually be just one species. Dr. Eckhardt measured the degree of dental variation from two ‘species’ of Dryopithecus compared to Ramapithecus. He also measured several Liberian chimpanzees to determine variation within a single species. In 14 out of 24 the measurements varied more than the fossils, an

- And here we have it folks, yet another example of Creationists cutting and pasting without investigation. The baboon species is not Theropithicus Galada but is instead Theropithicus Gelada.

Here's a photo of a replica of a Gelada Baboon skull. Compare it with human teeth and tell me if you think they're "similar."
P_127517_141579.jpg


As far as some of these earliest species being "apes," for one thing, humans are apes. As a matter of fact, the taxonomic classifaction "anthropoid" makes a joke of the Creationist "ape" objection. In fact, the Anthropoid designation is the reverse. Humans are the standard by which our fellow apes are classified, not the other way around.

apenman's buddy said:
Australopithecus</U> (includes A. Afarensis (Lucy), A. Africanus, A. Robustus, A. Boisei (Zinjanthropus) 1 ¾ -3.6 million years old. The skull variation is allowable within a single species, and many suspect just that. When these skulls are lined up with human skulls(Weaver 1985 p. 568-573)(17) one wonders why they are even in the same lineup. Australopithecus Boisei is as far away from Homo Habilis, as any present day ape is from modern man. It is still argued whether this line is really a link to man or just a variety of extinct ape. The suggestion that they walked upright has been strongly discredited by Solly Lord Zuckerman. His research team spent over 15 years studying the anatomy of modern apes, monkeys, humans, and the Australopithecine fossils. He remains totally unpersuaded of their upright status. Whenever someone claimed such a fossil had the ability to walk, his research team studied them to try to prove this, but always ended in failure. Complete skeletons wer

Solly Zuckerman has been discredited since the 1970s. I'd suggest if one was to cite creationist quote mining, one should at least check the dates of said quote mining. Not to mention the number of fossil finds since Zuckerman made his pronouncements, plus the DNA evidence like edogenous retroviruses, cytochrome C, and our human chromasome being a fused Chimp chromasome.

I guess this is as good as time as any to offer something up that no creationist has yet been able to answer for me. The below photo contains 14 skulls. The first is a Chimpanzee, the last is a modern Human. Can you draw the line between ape and human, and more importantly why?

hominids2.jpg

If you want the details on the skulls you can find them here.

Well, it's nearing my bedtime. I have some comments on the remaining parts of this research paper, but thus far, I'd have to give it an F for effort, investigation and content. If no one else catches the last part, I'll get it tonight at work.
 
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USincognito said:
Hey apenman, if you're still lurking, some of your paragraphs got snipped, if there's a significant amount missing from them, could you go back and edit the missing parts in?
Everything he sent me is posted. The snipped paragraphs are in my original e-mail.

BTW USincognito, I really appreciate your time on this! Thank you!
 
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Apenman, thanks for the heads up on the truncated paragraphs.

apenman said:
1470 Man</U> (Homo Habilis: 2 million years old.) Richard Leakey had some telling thing to say about his find. "Either we toss out this skull or we toss out our theories of early man." "It simply fits no previous models of human beginnings" " …leaves in ruins the notion that all early fossils can be arranged in an orderly sequence of evolutionary change.(Leakey 1973 p. 819) (18) For better or worse, 1470 Man has been put in the ‘lineup’ even though Zinjanthropus dates at 1.8 million years old. This means ‘1470 Man’ predates both of these supposed ancestors. It is interesting to note that originally 1470 Man was dated at 2.8 million years old(IBID. p.819,820,824)(19), but is now dated at 2 million years (Analyzer unknown, 1985 p. 571)(20), presumably to make it better fit, because with the older date it would predate Australopithecus, ruining half the chart! The reason this skull is inserted in the chart is the skull cranial capacity is only 800cc compared with modern mans 1

The Leakey quote is popular with creationists, but since it's 30+ years old and several new early homo fossils have been discovered since then and ER-1470 has been classified as an early Homo called habils (though there is still some controversy about whether it actually is a habilis. And controversy about it and it and a similar skull). The fact remains however, that it's a skull that exhibits both ape and human properties. Since the other apes are supposed to have been specially created seperate from humans, why do skulls like ER-1470 and all the others even exist at all?

apenman said:
Java Man, Peking Man, Heidelburg Man, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man </U>All these have been proven to be hoaxes. Java was a gibbon skull, and a human thigh bone, with three different teeth (2 orangutan, 1 human) found 50 feet away. Peking Man was an ape killed by hunters found with the fossils of 100 other animals and ten human skulls. Heidelburg Man was built up from a human jawbone. Piltdown Man was built from a fossil human skull fragment and a recent ape jawbone made to look old, with teeth filed to appear human. It deceived for over 40 years. Nebraska Man was built up from a single tooth, which turned out to be that of an extinct pig. All this and yet two of these ‘men’ can still be found in modern evolutionary charts.

Rubbish mixed with creationist mountain out of molehill building.

- Java Man is a Homo erectus. The link explains the femur and orang teeth.
- Peking Man is a Homo erectus. One should keep in mind that these fossils were both fragmentary, and found 70 years ago when early human fossils were quite rare. The originals were lost in WWII, but the casts match Homo Erectus.
- Heidelberg man is likely a robust Homo erectus.
- Piltdown is the only legitimate claim of a hoax by creationists. And guess what the irony of the hoax was? As more and more legitimate early human fossils were found, Piltdown seemed to fit less and less with what they were finding. It was legitimate science that exposed Piltdown.
- Nebraska man is way overhyped by creationists. Paelontologists never picked up on it, it was a mainstream newspaper that created Nebraska man, not scientists.
I challenge you to find a single evolutionary "chart" (more properly called a phylogeny) that includes Piltdown or Nebraska man. In fact, if any of the readers want to check her's one from the Museum of Natural History, let me know if I missed the Eoanthropus Dawsonii on there somewhere.

Well, since this is the final stop before nearly modern man, how about you take a look at two legitimate finds and give me your opinion on whether ape men actually existed.

Meet Lucy:
lucy.jpg

and the Turkana Boy
15000.jpg


apenman said:
Neanderthal Man The skeleton of this individual is stooped. It has been determined that this stoop was caused from rickets, or arthritis, common among the local people where the skeleton was found His brain capacity is equal or greater than modern man. There is really no doubt that this individual was fully human, yet he is still listed on the chart.

This is the most rediculous creationist claptrap there is. Even the most cursory overview of the evidences shows the rickets claim to be impossible. And no, they definately belong in our phylogeny, there's just still some debate about where.
cromag_resize.JPG

laferr3.JPG

apenman said:
Cro-Magnon Man [/u]He is at least equal in physical appearance and brain capacity, and could not be distinguished from modern Europeans. So what’s the difference?

Cro-Magnon is an early modern human. The photo above comparing human and Neanderthal is a cro-Magnon skull. No one claims they're anything but fully human. Contrary to creationist confusion, cro-Magnon is more of a paleological classification than an evolutionary/biological one.

apenman said:
It seems to me that Evolution is indeed a flimsy theory held together only by the sheer will power of the determined evolutionist. It does not even appear to be a valid theory. It really doesn’t have any scientific basis for its existence.

I'll leave it to anyone who read my critique to determine if this statement is true. Remember, I didn't actually go into to much of the evidences for evolution, I just reponded to attempts to attack it.

apenman said:
Creationism could be shown to have great credibility and would merit teaching in normal school curriculum. However evolution is so entrenched scientific dogma that only a presidential decree could reinstate it back into normal youth education

Where are we supposed to have drawn this conclusion from? From conflating abiogenesis and meaningless statistical calculations with outdated and incorrect information about the fossil record? I'm sorry, but you haven't demonstrated creationisms validity at all. Worse yet, by tying creationisms fortune to an attack on evolution - that failed miserably, you've shown creationism as lacking in positive evidence. Is there any?

apenman said:
Chick Jack T. 1972Big Daddy? 055-W Chino California :Chick Publications

Daaniken Erik Von 1977 Von Daaniken’s Proof Bantam edition, Great Britain: Souvenir Press

Are these citations some sort of a joke? A Chick Tract and a Van Daaniken book? The creationist citations are bad enough, but I'm sorry, these are laughable.

Final grade: F -
 
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