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Evolution
- Thread starter 1whirlwind
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Does the Bible describe television, telephones, electricity? For "germs" not to be mentioned by name isn't, to me, a very substantial argument.
There are evil spirits that Jesus contended with. He also said there are....
Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
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crawfish
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The point is not how I see it (I have very little problems reading the obvious symbology here). The point is how can YOU see it as anything else than literal? And how does that not conflict with how you interpret Genesis 1 and 2?
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Whenever a cause of a sickness is described, it is described as an evil spirit. It is never described as anything else, much less as due to germs.
If you don't have a problem with germs not being mentioned nor described, then why do you have a problem with evolution not being mentioned?
Papias
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In [1 Chronicles 3] we're shown David's son Nathan...
3:5 And these were born unto him in Jerusalem; Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four, of Bath-shua the daugther of Ammiel;
From the two sons of David came Mary and Joseph respectively.
Mary -
Luke 3:23,31 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the Son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, (31) Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatham, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Joseph -
Matthew 1:6,16 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; (16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husand of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, Who is called Christ.
The phrase, "as was supposed," placed in parenthesis to draw special attention to it means....as reckoned by law. Joseph was "begotten" by Jacob his natural father but he was the son-in-law (reckoned by law) son of Heli. So, Heli would be the father of Mary. Luke 3:23,31 And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the Son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, (31) Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatham, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
Joseph -
Matthew 1:6,16 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; (16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husand of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, Who is called Christ.
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Precisely why creationists should drop the whole "evolution isn't in the Bible therefore it must be false" argument.
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I would have to disagree with that Papias. There is a difference in illness and evil spirits. The one I quoted previously and also....
John 11:3-5 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom Thou lovest is sick. When Jesus heard that, He said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
....both tell us there is illness. Because Christ didn't mention the reason for the sickness doesn't mean it wasn't caused by germs.
I have a problem with evolution as it is in direct conflict with His Word telling us of His creation.
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In working an another thread I was shown.....
Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said unto them, "Have ye not read, that He Which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said unto them, "Have ye not read, that He Which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
When was "the beginning" for that is when He "made them."
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Did we evolve into male/female? If yes...how? How does one produce another without the capability to produce. We don't. We were created at the beginning to produce as we were...male and female.
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WW wrote:
And it also doesn't tell us, ever, anywhere, that any disease is ever caused by anything other than evil spirits. You are adding the idea of germs to the text, it simply isn't there.
The upshot is that you are, in one case, saying that evolution is evil because it isn't mentioned in the Bible, then turning around and saying that Germ theory isn't evil, even though it too isn't mentioned in the Bible. In both cases an explanation for the related phenomena is given.
Both Evolution and Germ theory are in direct contradiction to a literal reading of the Bible. When one's interpretation of a given Bible doesn't match the real world, one has to decide whether it is one's interpretation which is wrong, or if it is one's Bible that is wrong. We don't have the luxury of deciding that the real world doesn't exist.
it doesn't say "reckoned by law", and either way it doesn't say Heli was mary's father. The Bible says that Heli was joseph's father. You are again changing the text to suit your needs. Was it God's word, or man's ideas, which said Heli was mary's father? Obviously, man's ideas, since God's word says Heli is Joseph's father.
For 1 Cr, you didn't read the text. The list of fathers from David to Jesus is different - the list in Mt simply deleted some names. You did notice that, right? I can list them if you like.
Papias
And it also doesn't tell us, ever, anywhere, that any disease is ever caused by anything other than evil spirits. You are adding the idea of germs to the text, it simply isn't there.
The upshot is that you are, in one case, saying that evolution is evil because it isn't mentioned in the Bible, then turning around and saying that Germ theory isn't evil, even though it too isn't mentioned in the Bible. In both cases an explanation for the related phenomena is given.
Both Evolution and Germ theory are in direct contradiction to a literal reading of the Bible. When one's interpretation of a given Bible doesn't match the real world, one has to decide whether it is one's interpretation which is wrong, or if it is one's Bible that is wrong. We don't have the luxury of deciding that the real world doesn't exist.
it doesn't say "reckoned by law", and either way it doesn't say Heli was mary's father. The Bible says that Heli was joseph's father. You are again changing the text to suit your needs. Was it God's word, or man's ideas, which said Heli was mary's father? Obviously, man's ideas, since God's word says Heli is Joseph's father.
For 1 Cr, you didn't read the text. The list of fathers from David to Jesus is different - the list in Mt simply deleted some names. You did notice that, right? I can list them if you like.
Papias
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juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
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If evolution is true, then creation is not true.
God creates.
So evolution is evil.
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juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
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Evolution is a much bigger (wider) theory. In comparison, gravity, germs, atoms have many many more evidences.
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The Psalms tell us that we are each individually created by God in the womb, too. Does that mean that embryonic development is also evil? Is it similarly contrary to creation?
Man, neocreationist god-of-the-gaps theology is just... bogus.
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juvenissun
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juvenissun
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Gen 2:5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground.
Look at the reason no plant had grown, the ground was dry and there wasn't a man to work the ground. How does this fit the creation of plants on day three which grew without a man being created for another three days? In Genesis 1, it wasn't that plants hadn't grown because there was no rain, the ground had been deep underwater that very morning and the reason plants did not grow between God creating the land in Gen 1:9 and plants in Gen 1:11 is that there weren't any seeds and there wasn't enough time anyway. Not as we read in Genesis 2, that there hadn't been rain and there was no gardener.
But an even bigger problem is when God created beasts and birds. In Genesis 1 the birds are created on day 5 and the beasts on day 6 before God created man and woman. In Genesis 2, God created man first, then the beasts and the birds, and then God makes the woman.
Genesis 1: plants, birds, beasts, then man and woman
Genesis 2: man, plants, beasts and birds, then woman
In Gen2:19, does the original text suggest that animals "have been" made? How do you read from the verse that animals "are being made"?
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He shows the difference Papias....
Matthew 17:15-21 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to Thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to Me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
Matthew 10:1 And when He had called unto Him His twelve disciples, He gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
Matthew 10:1 And when He had called unto Him His twelve disciples, He gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
I'm not saying evolution is evil because it isn't mentioned....I say it is evil as it is in direct conflict with His Word. Germs, as we know....cause sickness and disease. Is knowledge of germs in conflict with His Word? No.
How is the knowledge of germs, which isn't a theory, in conflict with a "literal reading of the Bible?" Where is that? The real world exists and His Word stands.
Did I write "as was supposed?"
God's word tells us Heli was Joseph's "as was supposed," father which would be....father-in-law. No need. I didn't understand the point you were making.
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lucaspa
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You need to read all of that chapter -- Mark 10 and Matthew 14. The Pharisees had asked Jesus his position on divorce, in the light of Deut 24:1. Jesus replied that a man -- Moses -- wrote scirpture and, in this case at least, he got it wrong. It is not persmissible for men to write out divorces whenever they want.
How does Jesus religiously justify his new policy? He goes back to Genesis 1:26 and uses Genesis as it was meant to be used: as a book about theology.
Yes, God created humans male and female. But He did so by evolution. And yes, it is possible to have organisms that reproduce asexually sometimes and sexually sometimes. The amoeba dictolystelium does so. So do many bacteria. The simplest sexually reproducing organisms are Volvox, who have only 2 types of cells: a somatic cell that makes up the hollow body of the volvox and then the germ cells. There are no males or females.
So yes, organisms evolved into male and female. But that still means that God created humans as male and female (by evolution) and it is still wrong for men to write out divorces from their wives whenever they please.
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WW wrote:
Doesn't that support evolution more than a literal reading? According to the evidence, male and female evolved concurrently, as Jesus says.
According to a literal reading of Genesis 2, on the other hand, God didn't make them male and female at the beginning. At the beginning (the earliest human) God made only the male. It was only after problems arose and alternatives were considered that God made female humans as an afterthought.
If Jesus had wanted to reaffirm a literal reading of the creation story, would he not have said "Have ye not read, that He Which made them at the beginning made the male. Then later on, He Which made the male, to provide a companion, then made a female," ?
Perhaps this is the reaffirmation of evolution by Jesus that you are looking for?
Papias
Doesn't that support evolution more than a literal reading? According to the evidence, male and female evolved concurrently, as Jesus says.
According to a literal reading of Genesis 2, on the other hand, God didn't make them male and female at the beginning. At the beginning (the earliest human) God made only the male. It was only after problems arose and alternatives were considered that God made female humans as an afterthought.
If Jesus had wanted to reaffirm a literal reading of the creation story, would he not have said "Have ye not read, that He Which made them at the beginning made the male. Then later on, He Which made the male, to provide a companion, then made a female," ?
Perhaps this is the reaffirmation of evolution by Jesus that you are looking for?
Papias
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