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Evolution

1whirlwind

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The ultimate truthfulness of a matter is if it aligns with reality. God is the one who created the universe if your interpretation of scripture does not line up with reality, then it does not line up with God. Flat earth and geocentrism line up with scripture, but not with reality.



Flat earth and geocentrism do NOT line up with Scripture and are not mentioned. Rather they were man's interpretation, what man believed...they were mistaken. Reality is truth and truth is written. Evolution not only isn't written but is in direct opposition to what is written. Either evolution is truth or creation is truth....one or the other.

Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.

Psalm 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all His works are done in truth.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

John 17:17,19 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
(19) And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
11 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So I ask you....As His word is truth, As we are sanctified through truth, As we must worship Him in truth, As all scripture is truth and profitable for learning truth....then should we not pay attention to what is written and always choose it over man's ideas when those ideas are in direct conflict with Scripture?



A lot of TEs see Adam that way, Paul interpreted Adam figuratively and I am happy to stick with that until I come across a convincing scriptural argument to interpret him literally as well. But for the sake of this discussion lets assume he was a literal individual.



He was the beginning of the line to the Savior....He was a literal man as Christ also was literal.




The bible says nothing about reproduction being restricted to kinds (other then choosing a partner of the same species of course), although evolution has only ever been organisms producing more organisms within their clade. Clades divide subdivide and diverge, but always remain within the clade.


If you see "after his kind" as being the choice in a partner and not in reproduction then this is another avenue of disagreement in understanding. To me, it clearly means each species produces the same species.



You need to do more than just repeat the claim evolution is a lie. It is not a picture of the creation of man, it is how mankind was formed, how God created us.


I have. I have asked that a decision be made between the written Word and Darwin's theory. There is no room for both.


I shouldn't respond to creationists claims?


Only when they claim it. Have I? :p



The only issue is how long God took to create the human race in his image. Remember, the bible tells us God's time scales are not ours.


That isn't the only issue pointing to the lie of evolution. As for God's time...He also tells us that His day is as a thousand years.






Pictures of ape and human skulls...stong similarity. I see the same similarity when I go to the zoo but I never called one of them daddy. :D



Hebrew describe God's seventh day rest as a rest we can enter if we hear his voice Today and do not harden our hearts. Paul described the sabbath as a shadow of things to come. Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. The seventh day in Genesis is not a description of God stopping work for a day a few thousand of years ago, it is a prophetic symbolic picture of the rest we will have in God through Christ in the future. God never stopped working. When Jesus was confronted about working on the sabbath, John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."



Thank you for quoting that...I have never noticed it before. However, here we must rightly divide the word. There is work, such as the work that continues today, which you have pointed out and then there is the work that ended for He tells us....."God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made." The work He "had made," was the creation of "heavens, earth and all the host." FINISHED, past tense! They didn't evolve but were ended and then...He rested.



Tell me, do you know when a new day began in the bible?


Good question Assyrian. No. :blush: But, if I were to guess it would be the eighth day formation of Adam, when "man became a living soul." Eight means new beginnings and that eighth day was...a new beginning.


Gen 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
There is nothing in the verse about the creatures producing after their kind. It is the earth God commands to produce all the different kinds. Now you may want to interpret the verse differently, but evolution is certainly consistent with God commanding nature to produce all the vast variety of life on earth.



We read this differently Assyrian. According to their kinds, to me, is about each creation having their own kind. It is no different than....

Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Funny that grass and trees are referred to as "his kind," rather than it's kind. :) Another verse that makes you delve deeper (if you, as I, believe in creatures other than humans and literal fowl flying in our skies).....




Genesis 1:20-23 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
The waters bring forth fowl...fowl that flies and multiples in the earth. And yes, I know this is a stretch but it is what I'm seeing.




^_^Beast of the field and beast of the earth are simply differences in style and vocabulary between two creation accounts, Genesis 2&3 says plant to the field, herb of the field, beast of the field. It is the difference between one person saying animals, and another wild animals. Genesis 2 refers to the beast of the field and bird of the air as 'every living creature', the same as the living creatures we read about in Gen 1. When do you think all the birds of the air were created?


More is being said Assyrian. Using "of the field" and "of the earth" isn't a happenstance or style of writing.


Thing is, it doesn't matter what you think it means, but that for a millennium and a half people though the passages meant the sun goes round the earth. But when science showed this was wrong they needed to go back and find a better way to interpret them.


No, what I think doesn't matter. What is written does. Was it written that the sun goes around the earth? No. Man assumed...man was wrong.



Copernicus didn't say either. He just showed the earth went round the sun. It was up to the church to figure out how to deal with their interpretation. They didn't go back to scripture and say "oh look, we missed it, scripture really says the earth goes round the sun". Scripture doesn't. They just knew from science their literal interpretation was mistaken.


Scripture didn't say...man assumed.



We go over the same stuff a lot here :)


^_^ Yes, we seem to.



The second creation account is written after the first account, but that does not mean it happened after it. The Gospel of Mark come after Matthew, but it doesn't mean it happened after.


The difference is Genesis is one Book of God's account. It is written that way for a reason.



How do you go from realising parable and metaphors point to the truth, to thinking if they didn't happen that way it is a lie?



Would He tell us, in parable form, that something happened a certain way when...it happened a completely different way, a way that conflicts with the literal or figurative (however you wish to understand it) way it was written?



If people throughout the bible give figurative interpretation of Genesis, why is is a problem to interpret it figuratively? I asked if there was a single passage in scripture telling you to interpret Genesis literally, you didn't answer, which I presume means you cannot think of any.


I can't think of any writing saying....you must read Genesis literally, but the following demonstrate that it happened as written....

Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

The beginning, to me, is the very beginning.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in His time: also He hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

No man would include Darwin.
Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

At the beginning we were made to produce...we didn't evolve into that capacity.
11 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
All things are as they were....we don't evolve into something else.
They didn't go back to scripture to find out Copernicus was wrong. They went back to scripture because their old interpretation was wrong. Incidentally we have vastly more evidence for evolution than there was supporting Copernicus's theory when it was accepted by science and the church.


The point is...scripture didn't change. It was, as you said...their interpretation that was wrong. It isn't written that the earth is the middle of the universe but man thought it up. We may have "vastly more evidence" for understanding the adaptation species make (still within their specific, kind after kind, group) over time but not for man evolving from ape.



No more conflict than heliocentrism. Less, because there is evidence from scripture itself that Genesis can or even should be interpreted figuratively. And through the long centuries when no one questioned the literal interpretation of the geocentric passages, people like Origen, Augustine and Aquinas were saying Genesis should be interpreted figuratively.



1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.





You know Jesus had problems with his disciples arguing with each other back then too :)



^_^ I thought of that very thing yesterday. We'll get there.


1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

.


 
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S

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Flat earth and geocentrism do NOT line up with Scripture and are not mentioned. Rather they were man's interpretation, what man believed...they were mistaken. Reality is truth and truth is written. Evolution not only isn't written but is in direct opposition to what is written. Either evolution is truth or creation is truth....one or the other.

Well, here are 67 Bible verses that the author at this WEB site claims prove that the sun moves around the earth.

Sixty-Seven Scriptural References

Which Tell Us That It Is The Sun

And Not The Earth That Moves

Genesis 15:12...... "...and when the sun was going down..."

15:17..... "...when the sun went down..."

19:23..... "The sun was risen upon the earth."

28:11..... "...because the sun was set...."

32:31..... "...the sun rose...."

Exodus 17:12..... "...until the going down of the sun...."

22:3...... "...if the sun be risen upon him...."

22:26.... "...the sun goeth down...."

Leviticus 22:7...... "...And when the sun is down...."

Numbers 2:3........ "...toward the rising of the sun...."

Deuteronomy 11:30..... "...the way where the sun goeth down...."

16:6....... "...at the going down of the sun...."

23:11..... "...when the sun is down...."

24:13..... "...when the sun goeth down...."

24:15..... "...neither shall the sun go down...."

Joshua 1:4..... "...the going down of the sun...."

8:29... "...as soon as the sun was down...."

10:12.. "...Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon...."

10:13.. "...and the sun stood still...."

10:27.. "...the time of the going down of the sun...."

12:1.... "...toward the rising of the sun...."

Judges 5:31.... "...as the sun when he goeth down...."

8:13.... "...before the sun was up...."

9:33.... "...as soon as the sun is up...."

14:18.... "...before the sun went down...."

19:14.... "...and the sun went down...."

II Samuel 2:24.... "...the sun went down...."

3:35.... "...till the sun be down...."

23:4..... "...when the sun riseth...."

I Kings 22:36.... "...the going down of the sun...."

I Chronicles 16:30.... "...the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved...."

II Chronicles 18:34.... "...time of the sun going down...."

Job 9:7.... "...commandeth the sun and it riseth not...."

Job 26:7.... "...He hangeth the earth upon nothing...."

Psalm 19:4.... "...tabernacle for the sun...."

19:5 ... "...cometh out to run...."

19:6.... "...goes forth in a circle from one end of heaven to the other...."

50:1.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

93:1.... "...the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved...."

104:19.. "...the sun knoweth his going down...."

104:22.. "...the sun ariseth...."

113:3.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

Ecclesiastes 1:5.... "...The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down

and hasteth to the place where he arose...."

Isaiah 13:10.... "...sun shall be darkened in his going...."

38:8...... "...is gone down on the sundial of Ahaz...."

38:8...... "...so the sun returned...."

41:25.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

45:6...... "...from the rising of the sun...."

59:19.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

60:20.... "...the sun shall no more go down...."

Jeremiah 15:9.... "...her sun is gone down while it was yet day...."

Daniel 6:14.... "...going down of the sun...."

Amos 8:9.... "...cause the sun to go down at noon...."

Jonah 4:8.... "...when the sun did arise...."

Micah 3:6.... "...and the sun shall go down...."

Nahum 3:17.... "...when the sun ariseth...."

Habakkuk 3:11.... "...the sun and moon stood still in their habitation...."

Malachi 1:11.... "...from the rising of the sun...."

Matthew 5:45.... "...for He maketh His sun to rise...."

13:6..... "...and when the sun was up...."

Mark 1:32.... "...when the sun did set...."

4:6...... "...when the sun was up...."

16:2...... "...at the rising of the sun...."

Luke 4:40.... "...when the sun was setting...."

Ephesians 4:26.... "...let not the sun go down upon your wrath...."

James 1:11.... "...for the sun is no sooner risen...."



That is a Total of 67 Verses from the Bible Which Say

that It Is the Sun that Moves and Not the Earth!

*******************

# of Verses from the Bible Which Say

that It Is the Earth that Moves and Not the Sun:

0

***********************

Will You...your Preacher...your Church Boldly

Stand With The Bible on this Creationist Teaching??

In the Biblical Creation there was, after all,

no sun for the earth to go around

until the fourth day!

(Genesis 1:14-19)

*******

Those who would like still further proof that there is no getting around

the fact that the Bible teaches that it is the sun--not the earth--

that moves, will want to read this title also:

"Grammatically and Semantically

the Holy Bible is Wholly Geocentric"

HERE

Also, go to "What If?" for the top 11 references in 7 Bible Books

which teach that the Earth is an immovable, stationary body,

around which the sun travels daily...and for some

other subject-related "What Ifs?"....

HERE

*******
 
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1whirlwind

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Well, here are 67 Bible verses that the author at this WEB site claims prove that the sun moves around the earth.


*******


None of the quotes make any claim or offer proof. The "author of the web site" has a serious problem if that is what he/she believes.


.
 
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Cabal

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None of the quotes make any claim or offer proof. The "author of the web site" has a serious problem if that is what he/she believes.

It doesn't have anything to do with his/her belief. He's just posted God's word.

Hey, that standard is ok for you, after all :wave:
 
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1whirlwind

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It doesn't have anything to do with his/her belief. He's just posted God's word.

Hey, that standard is ok for you, after all :wave:


Good morning Cabal from my part of the world. :D

Posting God's word is what we are to do. They were offered as "proof" of something and yet they are nothing of the kind. Please notice, I wrote....."The "author of the web site" has a serious problem if that is what he/she believes." The author of the web site is stating that as their belief...are they not? To refresh your memory.....

Well, here are 67 Bible verses that the author at this WEB site claims prove that the sun moves around the earth.


.
 
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Papias

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WW wrote:
Pictures of ape and human skulls...stong similarity. I see the same similarity when I go to the zoo but I never called one of them daddy.
Well, if apes are apes and humans are humans, it should be trivially easy for you to say which of those are "entirely ape" and which are "entirely human". So, which are which?

Papias
 
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None of the quotes make any claim or offer proof. The "author of the web site" has a serious problem if that is what he/she believes.

Well, from about the 390 BC to 1822, virtually the entire world- including the religious hierarchy, both Christian and Muslims- believed that the earth was the centre of the Universe (geocentrism)- so the author of the Web site would have been in good company. Actually, it wasn't until 1838 that FW Bessel published "proof" that the earth revolved around the sun.

But even to this day, some creationists, like Marshall Hall, don't believe it; here is one example:

Answered honestly from all known evidence, we know that these "What If's" add up to one inescapable Truth. That Truth is that the Bible is just what it claims to be, namely, the inerrant, sufficient, infallible Word of the living God who cannot lie.

So, as a Creationist, what if you have to stand up for the plain Biblical non-moving Earth because: a) It is a pivotal feature of the Genesis Creation Account wherein (in addition to the hard evidence at this site) there was no sun to go around until the 4th day; b) The alleged size and age of the universe which provide the billions of years for the evolution hypothesis self-destructs without heliocentricity, and continued support of heliocentricity while claiming to be a literal six-day Creationist is hypocrisy; c) The now available facts demonstrating that all the concepts upholding the heliocentricity-dependent Big Bang Paradigm of 15 billion years of evolutionism comprise an alternate "creation scenario" from a Christ-hating "holy book" of the Pharisee Religion.

Thus, the only choice for Creationists now taking shape is this: Are you going to be a Zohar/ Kabbala/ Pharisee Big Bang Evolutionary "creationist" or the Bible/Christian Anti-Evolution Creationist the world believes you to be?



Sound familiar?
 
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pgp_protector

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WW wrote:

Well, if apes are apes and humans are humans, it should be trivially easy for you to say which of those are "entirely ape" and which are "entirely human". So, which are which?

Papias

Right, like they would even attempt to answer that :D :D :D :D
 
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Cabal

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Good morning Cabal from my part of the world. :D

Posting God's word is what we are to do. They were offered as "proof" of something and yet they are nothing of the kind. Please notice, I wrote....."The "author of the web site" has a serious problem if that is what he/she believes." The author of the web site is stating that as their belief...are they not? To refresh your memory.....

Ah, I see the mistake they made. They neglected to try and pass their opinion off as fact the way you have the entire thread.

Funny how that's ok for you, but not for other people.
 
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If you read the King James version of Genesis 1:1-5, it is clear in a literal interpretation that the Sun was created AFTER the earth and therefore could not be occupying the same central position as the earth, so it could be moving around it.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.



So there is NO DOUBT that this passage can be interpreted as meaning that the sun revolves around the earth. Indeed- there are some scientists who claim the opposite- but they are probably the same scientists who also believe in evolution! But Christians need to stand on the Bible alone, and have confidence in THEIR OWN interpretation of it's truths- it is neither necessary or even desirable to listen to or consider the opinions of others, including Biblical scholars and scientists.

And to add additional evidence to ponder: NOWHERE does the Bible specifically claim that the earth is revolving around the Sun. If this were true, wouldn't God have stated it as such?

.
 
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Greg1234

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If you read the King James version of Genesis 1:1-5, it is clear in a literal interpretation that the Sun was created AFTER the earth and therefore could not be occupying the same central position as the earth, so it could be moving around it.

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.



So there is NO DOUBT that this passage can be interpreted as meaning that the sun revolves around the earth. Indeed- there are some scientists who claim the opposite- and they are probably the same scientists who also believe in evolution!

.
The creation of the whole man in the first chapter is an allegory for the expression of the non material aspect of man. The literal creation of man from the dust of the earth is an allegory for the creation of man through and by the reflection of the image as was expressed in the first chapter yet still not completely amenable to physical law.

Seeing that Genesis is not taken literally, and is regarded as an allegory, what exactly is your point?
 
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Genesis 1: 13-19 adds additional evidence to support the fact that the Earth formed first, and the sun came later:

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


First, a literal interpretation here could certainly be used to support the notion that the earth may be the centre of the Universe.

But even more important is that this description is COMPLETELY CONTRARY to virtually every astronomer's explanation of how the solar system was formed: that the Sun was formed first, and then small bodies of stray matter circling that Sun accreted to form the planets, including the earth.

So if I have to chose between a literal interpretation of the Bible and what likely every scientist, and most people, believe- what do I pick?

.
 
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Seeing that Genesis is not taken literally, and is regarded as an allegory, what exactly is your point?

Problem is that you can't see my mischievous smile- so I guess it isn't clear that I jest- and am only trying to make the point that in these matters, we need to use the brain and intellect that God gave us, and the collective wisdom of others (especially Biblical scholars and scientists who spend an awful lot more time than most of us studying these matters), to formulate our thoughts.

We especially need to be careful to make sure that we respect the opinions of others, and to ensure that we do not offer stubborn and narrow-minded interpretations of the Bible that cause others to question their faith and turn away from God, or worse, causes faith-seekers to dismiss our Christian faith as nonsense and not worthy of being taken seriously.

I think the American essayist and poet, Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882), probably said it best: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds,.....

the second part of his quote is often not included, but is appropriate here:

....adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

By "divines", I presume he meant narrow-minded theologians and other religious folk.

.
 
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Greg1234

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But Christians need to stand on the Bible alone, and have confidence in THEIR OWN interpretation of it's truths- it is neither necessary or even desirable to listen to or consider the opinions of others, including Biblical scholars and scientists..
Science. Nice little addendum there by the way. But the effect is still the same. Its good that you've reverted to the fact that it is the scientific evidence that is the determinant, and it is the scientific evidence that determines creation, not an argument over what is literal and what is allegorical. What you and your kin otherwise persist in.

So if I have to chose between a literal interpretation of the Bible and what likely every scientist, and most people, believe- what do I pick?
See how you twist. First it was a battle to get people to see that there are allegories in the bible. Now its literal vs what "most people believe". Very soon, you'll drop the whole humbuggery and just say Darwinism. A battle between literalism and Darwinism. You have already hijacked the interpretation. You goal to get people to see allegories is for that very reason. In fact, its the only reason.

But its good that you've gotten closer to your actual intentions.
 
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1whirlwind

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WW wrote:

Well, if apes are apes and humans are humans, it should be trivially easy for you to say which of those are "entirely ape" and which are "entirely human". So, which are which?

Papias


Why would you think that was trivially easy. :confused: Scientist, making a study of this, have mistakenly thought apes were humans for a long time now. Lucy, purported to be the missing link turned out to be a knuckle-dragging female chimp.

There is another account of a bone fragment or something (again...I plead old age and terrible memory) but a whole hairy-human family being displayed for all the world, was built on that fragment. Turns out...the fragment was from a pig.


.
 
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Greg1234

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we need to use the brain and intellect that God gave us,
Surely. We don't want to offend God after all. That's the absolute worst thing a Christian would want to do. Please tell me how I can use my brain and intellect that God gave me Mr "Servant of Jesus"
and the collective wisdom of others (especially Biblical scholars and scientists who spend an awful lot more time than most people studying these matters), to formulate our thoughts. [vs] stubborn and narrow-minded interpretations of the Bible
So I'm guessing its no longer literal vs allegory. Actual intentions are surfacing.
causes faith-seekers to dismiss our Christian faith as nonsense and not worthy of being taken seriously.
Oh my. Thats horrible. And surely, you must understand. Take me to the nearest Darwinian station.
 
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