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Evolution?

Vene

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Note that these statements are only helpful if you can indeed agree on some kind of metric. Most people would call an amoeba less complex than a human. But if you look at the genetic material, one could argue about this, given that Amoeba dubia has a genome 700 times larger than that of a human (yes, I had to look that up).
I wonder how much of that actually codes for proteins. Actually, I'm not even sure it that's necessary for telling how 'complex' an organism is because not all genes are equal. Some offer complexity in the way of color, others influence macroscopic structure, and yet others are responsible for biochemical pathways.

Like, are the erythrocytes of an individual afflicted with sickle cell anemia more, less, or equally complex as an individual without it? The normal erythrocytes are much better at transporting oxygen and carbon dioxide, but afflicted cells can form huge hemoglobin chains. The primary structure of each individual's hemoglobin are equally big (there is a difference of a singe amino acid, and it's a case of substitution).

And some pictures:
hemoglobin.jpg

Normal hemoglobin

Sickle_cell_hemoglobin.png

Sickle Cell hemoglobin
 
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Tomk80

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I wonder how much of that actually codes for proteins. Actually, I'm not even sure it that's necessary for telling how 'complex' an organism is because not all genes are equal. Some offer complexity in the way of color, others influence macroscopic structure, and yet others are responsible for biochemical pathways.

Like, are the erythrocytes of an individual afflicted with sickle cell anemia more, less, or equally complex as an individual without it? The normal erythrocytes are much better at transporting oxygen and carbon dioxide, but afflicted cells can form huge hemoglobin chains. The primary structure of each individual's hemoglobin are equally big (there is a difference of a singe amino acid, and it's a case of substitution).

And some pictures:
hemoglobin.jpg

Normal hemoglobin

Sickle_cell_hemoglobin.png

Sickle Cell hemoglobin
True. I was just throwing it out there as an example. I just think it's very premature to state that one organism is more complex than another, if you haven't got a clear definition of complexity. Heck, I doubt that such a clear definition can ever be arrived at, and I do not doubt that bacteria could be very complex if using the right specifications.

In the end, it just isn't a useful measure in any way.
 
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Nathan45

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Juv, here is the problem...

multicellular life already evolved once, it's unlikely to evolve again because of predators, so bacteria are stuck single cellular, they arn't likely to evolve into anything larger or more complicated than bacterial colonies, instead they stick to what they're good at.

A bacterial colony of sufficiently large size, something which if left untouched could evolve into a multicellular organism, would make an attractive meal for larger predators. And the predator has had millions of years to evolve into the most efficient killing machine possible, whereas the oversized bacteria colony has had absolutely no previous evolution to prepare it for an attack by macro predators.

If you've ever played RPGs, it would be like a fresh level 1 multicellular bacteria going up against a level 99 shark. I mean, it gets one-shotted. Game over. It has no chance to evolve, no chance to reproduce. You have no chance to survive, make your time, all your cells are belong to us!!!

Thus, bacteria tend to stay with what they're good at, which is being single celled or forming small colonies, but if they tried to evolve into something massive they'd just get eaten by something even bigger.

Wheras, the first multicellular organism didn't have this problem... it didn't have to worry about being eaten by something larger than itself because it was currently the largest thing around.

I mean, think of a rabbit. It has eyes on two sides of it's head so it can see everything. If you go near it it runs away as fast as it can. How long do you think that took to evolve? Wheras a hypothetical evolved multicellular bacteria doesn't have any of these traits, yet.

Now, the rabbit can escape, but freshly evolved multicellular bacteria doesn't stand a chance vs predators who've been evolving to eat anything they can for the past 100s million years. a multicellular bacteria could obviously not get very big at all before it got eaten by something larger.
 
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Nathan45

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Basically what i'm saying is that if bacteria tried to evolve into anything sufficiently large, they'd have to beat the eukaryotes at their own game.

Bacteria really have the single celled organism market nearly cornered, they also have a foothold into the small colony of cells niche...

but to evolve into something bigger they'd have to re-evolve all of the traits that the eukaryotes have been evolving for the past several hundred million years.

If there were no eukaryotes this could happen, but it's not going to happen because bacteria arn't going to beat the eukaryotes at their own game, they'll get eaten alive by the eukaryotes.

Bacteria are very well evolved to be single celled but that evolution means jack in the multicellular world, which is a whole new game.
 
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Naraoia

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Juv, here is the problem...

multicellular life already evolved once, it's unlikely to evolve again because of predators, so bacteria are stuck single cellular, they arn't likely to evolve into anything larger or more complicated than bacterial colonies, instead they stick to what they're good at.
I think the problem with this reasoning is that multicellular life evolved several times. I don't want to check a eukaryotic phylogeny just for this, but IIRC at least animals, plants (including green algae), fungi and brown algae did it independently. Now some of these creatures may have invented it before animals (who would be the main predators of multicellular things), but I don't think all of them did.

Also, multicellular bacteria (I'd call at least heterocyst-forming bacteria properly multicellular; they do have specialised cell types, if only two) do sometimes grow to macroscopic sizes.

I don't think size or multicellularity is the answer. IMHO the key step that prokaryotes are unlikely to make again is the leap to eukaryotic cells. Wouldn't a newly emerging proto-eukaryote necessarily be far less efficient than a modern eukaryote with all its sophisticated feeding mechanisms, transport equipment, mitochondria etc.? In this scenario, competition and not predation would be the main barrier to progress.

(That's just my idea based on patchy knowledge and gut feeling, so feel free to say no :))

EDIT: Sorry, Nathan, didn't read your next post. It seems we are basically saying the same thing. :wave:
 
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juvenissun

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Juv, here is the problem...

multicellular life already evolved once, it's unlikely to evolve again because of predators, so bacteria are stuck single cellular, they arn't likely to evolve into anything larger or more complicated than bacterial colonies, instead they stick to what they're good at.

Yes. It makes sense from this particular point of view. But ...

This is what really bothered me now. Evolution is just like a multi-head monster. One head get chopped off, the others come to rescue. When head gets short, new head emerges. One can never kill all them off. Any working process suggested by Evolution can, in fact, easily be argued as false. However, it is always possible to be replaced by another process in the theory which seemingly works. This nature of a theory does not make it right, but only makes it not right. Because this theory would never have any single mechanism stood firmly in all cases. This feature does not exist in any other major theories.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Yes. It makes sense from this particular point of view. But ...

This is what really bothered me now. Evolution is just like a multi-head monster. One head get chopped off, the others come to rescue.

Those heads are called "facts," "evidence," "observation," and "reason."

When head gets short, new head emerges. One can never kill all them off. Any working process suggested by Evolution can, in fact, easily be argued as false. However, it is always possible to be replaced by another process in the theory which seemingly works.

Any one process could easily be argued against if it were the only one operating in isolation, but with several processes coexisting and influencing each other, the key for would-be evolution fighters is not to attack any single one process (as they tend to do, and then claim victory) but to debunk evolution at its source.

Consider this analogy: You toilet is leaking, your bathtub is leaking, your kitchen sink is leaking, and your washing machine is leaking. What do you do first? Go down to the basement and shut off the house's water.


This nature of a theory does not make it right, but only makes it not right. Because this theory would never have any single mechanism stood firmly in all cases. This feature does not exist in any other major theories.

Because no other major theory covers a topic as diverse as the billions of different species of life on Earth.
 
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Vene

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Any one process could easily be argued against if it were the only one operating in isolation, but with several processes coexisting and influencing each other, the key for would-be evolution fighters is not to attack any single one process (as they tend to do, and then claim victory) but to debunk evolution at its source.
In other words, disprove either natural selection or genetic drift. Only a complete fool would go after mutations.
 
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Nathan45

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Juv, evolution is not different from other scientific theories, you're testing it to a higher standard than other theories.

The evolution of life is extremely complicated and not easy to model, however it is still based on simple principles that are proven to be correct.

Let me give you an analogy, i'll even provide a link:

http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/

Now, when you look at this link, think of physics, think of gravity. What causes the balls to fall? What causes all of the machinery to move?

You'd say, "Newtonian physics, and gravity".

Well, that's great, now prove how it actually happened, to someone who doesn't believe in newtonian physics and gravity, and prove it one blue ball at a time!!!


I mean, a lot of the questions you ask are hard. It's not really obvious, to anyone, why bacteria never evolved into anything multicellular. I'm really just giving you my best guess with my predator eukaryote hypothesis. It's like looking a trainwreck from earlier in the day and trying to calculate using newtonian physics why this particular log or cart ended up here, all while not really knowing, but having a good idea, of where the log and cart started in the first place.

I mean, take a train wreck, not knowing for sure what the train was like before it was wrecked, and then try computer modeling the whole process to the utmost detail. It's a really daunting task.

Now, you can model newtonian physics by reproducing simple physical processes in the laboratory, calculate it all using simple formulas, and completely ignoring the train wreck outside, you can prove physics works just like you think it does.

Same goes with evolution... people breed e-coli, fruit flies, etc, in the laboratory, and get all kinds of interesting results, and they also find evidence for macro evolution in the massive selection of dead animal fossils scattered around everywhere, as well as tell-tale signs in DNA of the nested heirarchy which is charicteristic of evolutionary processes.

Evolution predicts some complicated results, same as physics does, and both theories have very simple principles:

Evolution basically works on the following principles:

1) Between generations, animals mutate (change) in small ways which are more or less random. The mechanism for this is transcription errors in DNA.
2) Natural selection: The rare mutations which benefit the individual will cause the individual to be more likely to survive and reproduce, thus making the beneficially mutated variation of the animal more common over time, as it outcompetes it's neighbors.
3) Over long periods of time, the above mechanisms can lead to entirely different animals than what you started with.

...

let me go into a little more detail:

The average human genome undergoes around 100 random mutations per generation per animal. That means the average baby has 100 mutations which are transcriptions in the genome.

of these 100 mutations, 99% are neither negative or positive, some have no discernable effect, and the other 1% are mostly negative. If it's negative to a significant enough extent, the animal dies.

However, occasionally a mutation that is beneficial will turn up, making that organism more likely to survive. But let's do some math here:

let's say you have a population of 10,000,000 animals, over a course of 10,000,000 years, that reproduce once per year, with 100 mutations per reproduction.

How many mutations do you have? well, 100 * 10,000,000 * 10,000,000 = 10,000,000,000,000,000. That's a lot of mutations. How many are beneficial? Probably a good number of them.

You've got a lot of information to work with, as for what survives and what doesn't, it's all about whether the mutated creature can find it's own niche or else be better at exploiting it's current niche. That said, the utilitary reason for why X trait exists or never appeared is not always entirely obvious.
 
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juvenissun

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In other words, disprove either natural selection or genetic drift. Only a complete fool would go after mutations.

Here is a question from a fool to the wise:

Is mutation completely random? If so, how could this process deal with survival crisis?

I guess another head of the evolution monster will come to rescue.
 
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Tomk80

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Here is a question from a fool to the wise:

Is mutation completely random?
At least from a survival standpoint, yes.

If so, how could this process deal with survival crisis?
By increasing the variation in the population. Because of mutations not only both better and worse adapted individuals will arise. The better adapted will then survive.

However, in an environment that changes quickly, for many species this process will be too slow. If you look at the number of species that go extinct during environmental crises, you can see that for many species the right mutations will not come along in time.

Random means it can have positive or negative effects. A mutation has an effect on individuals. Evolution plays out on the level of the population. This means that in a population, some individuals will have beneficial mutations, others neutral and others detrimental. In a survival crisis, the beneficial mutations will outcompete the detrimental ones.

I guess another head of the evolution monster will come to rescue.
One general point. Your inability to recognize that there are multiple forces at play at the same time, does not mean that evolution is not falsifiable. It only means that you are apparantly not able to recognize that there are multiple forces at work to create a certain outcome. Your question on multicellularity is a good example of this.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Yes. It makes sense from this particular point of view. But ...

This is what really bothered me now. Evolution is just like a multi-head monster. One head get chopped off, the others come to rescue. When head gets short, new head emerges. One can never kill all them off. Any working process suggested by Evolution can, in fact, easily be argued as false.
How so?

However, it is always possible to be replaced by another process in the theory which seemingly works. This nature of a theory does not make it right, but only makes it not right.
It's nothing to do with the theory, merely the versatility and creativity of life.

You may as well argue that the whole field of statistics is wrong because, for every quantum transition shown to be forbidden, there are a plethora more that are possible.

Because this theory would never have any single mechanism stood firmly in all cases. This feature does not exist in any other major theories.
Yes, it does. Evolution, in its most general form, holds in all cases, as do all theories in their most general form. In the specifics, evolution changes along with all theories.

As Nathan45 said, you're holding evolutionary theory to a standard higher than you hold other theories. If you treated atomic theory the same way you treated evolutionary theory, you'd vehemently reject the existence of atoms!
 
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juvenissun

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At least from a survival standpoint, yes.


By increasing the variation in the population. Because of mutations not only both better and worse adapted individuals will arise. The better adapted will then survive.

However, in an environment that changes quickly, for many species this process will be too slow. If you look at the number of species that go extinct during environmental crises, you can see that for many species the right mutations will not come along in time.

This is exactly another head of the monster I am waiting for, the dynamics.

According to what you said, then there should be no extinction in between the few big events of mass extinction. Every species would have enough time to adapt minor changes. Also, there should be no speciation when the environment was stable for a couple tens of millions of years, because there would be no reason to change anything. Did the fossil record says against either of these assumptions/consequences?

So, what would be the next head? How about this one:

Why would any bacteria change (naturally) in the past, say, 30 years? Every type of bacterium has its niche. Have those niches changed in the past three decades? If some did, then could we correlate the changes among the bacteria and their niches? I bet we knows very little about it. We simply deal with the consequence when whatever type bacterium appeared mysteriously.

How would bacteria change when the earth is warming up? What kind of mutation is beneficial to lives in this type of environmental change?

How many heads I have chopped off? What's to come?
 
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paug

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juvenissun said:
However, it is always possible to be replaced by another process in the theory which seemingly works. This nature of a theory does not make it right, but only makes it not right.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right.

What's your point? Do you have a better alternative to investigating + drawing conclusions about our environment? Or is this just blind whining? We could, of course, just stick to the Bible for all our answers, but I think even you will realise that that would do quite a bit of harm.
 
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DaisyDay

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Is mutation completely random?
Mostly random, but mutations build on surviving mutations.

By increasing the variation in the population. Because of mutations not only both better and worse adapted individuals will arise. The better adapted will then survive.

However, in an environment that changes quickly, for many species this process will be too slow. If you look at the number of species that go extinct during environmental crises, you can see that for many species the right mutations will not come along in time.
I just want to emphasize that the benefit of a set of mutations will vary with the environment. For instance, one strain of maize may be more productive than another, but more suseptible to a particular fungus. As long as conditions (dry weather, not much wind) keep the fungus at bay, the more productive maize is "better" adapted, but if conditions change and the fungus strikes hard, the less productive strain suddenly is "better" adapted. There may be a third strain which carries both good adaptations, which will then predominate, while a fourth which has both bad may become extinct where the fungus.
 
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DaisyDay

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Bacteria are not a species; they are a domain, which contains kingdoms, which contain phyla, which contain classes, which contain orders which contain families which contain genera, which contain species, which contain strains which contain individuals. There are lots and lots of different species of bacteria.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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According to what you said, then there should be no extinction in between the few big events of mass extinction. Every species would have enough time to adapt minor changes.
Why should it? An 'extinction' could occur if the entire population evolves into a new species, and the old one simply no longer exists.

Also, there should be no speciation when the environment was stable for a couple tens of millions of years, because there would be no reason to change anything.
Indeed. Except the environment has never been stable for tens of millions of years. It isn't stable now. It's never been stable.

Ever heard of plate tectonics? Volcanoes? Earthquakes? Floods? Drought? The Earth is more stable now that it's ever been, and even this period is temporary.

Why would any bacteria change (naturally) in the past, say, 30 years?
Because a) reproduction is not perfect (variation and evolution would occur even in pristine environments, since neutral mutations would still get passed on), and b) bacteria do not live in pristine environments.

Bacteria, like all organisms, reproduce imperfectly and live in a varying environment. Thus, they evolve.

Every type of bacterium has its niche. Have those niches changed in the past three decades? If some did, then could we correlate the changes among the bacteria and their niches? I bet we knows very little about it. We simply deal with the consequence when whatever type bacterium appeared mysteriously.
Don't be naïve. We have seen bacteria evolve countless times over the past thirty years; ever heard of antibiotic resistance? The evolution of citric-ingestion?

How would bacteria change when the earth is warming up? What kind of mutation is beneficial to lives in this type of environmental change?
A mutation that changes various enzymes in the bacterium, thus raising their optimal temperature (the optimal temperature of an enzyme is the temperature at which it operates at peak efficiency; it's in the name, really).

In a world where the average temperature is increasing, this will allow the bacterium to continue functioning as efficiently as before.
 
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