Evolution

[k4c]

God's creation is a powerfull testimony to the fact there is a Creator.

Many people over the years have attemted to do away with creation and replace it with the theory of evolution thus doing away with a Creator.

God tells us that if we reject His reality the stones will cry out for Him.

Luke 19:40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTICjwUhSys

 

[tapero]

God's creation is a powerfull testimony to the fact there is a Creator.

Many people over the years have attemted to do away with creation and replace it with the theory of evolution thus doing away with a Creator.

God tells us that if we reject His reality the stones will cry out for Him.

Luke 19:40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTICjwUhSys

Hi, I disagree. The many issues which sidetrack Christians accomplish the task to keep the focus off of Jesus.

Keeping the focus off Jesus and on to things which do not matter in my opinion is not so good as the message of and about Jesus never goes out.

The issue is not how the world was created or that God created the world.

The issue is Jesus and faith and trust and committing one's life to Him.

you wrote:

God tells us that if we reject His reality the stones will cry out for Him.

Luke 19:40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.''

You show by what you post that you are doing the same thing though surely not intending to. Detracting from the truth of Jesus to be on to creation topic and along with that what you also posted saying fairly critical as without it serves to deny that God exists.

This is what the verse you quote is about:

When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38"Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"[b]
"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"

39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!" 40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

The verse quoted has nothing to do with creation as you see. I see why you bring it up, but it's not about creation.

It's about Jesus.

It's saying that God is so awesome so all, so glorious so praiseworthy so ad infinitum, that if people didn't speak out, even a rock could/would declare the praises of God.

It's to show that nothing can stop, nor will stop God from being glorified and honored and praised.

And the rocks will probably never cry out as you and I and the many who love God will always be doing so.

On to removing creation and replacing with evolution;

It actually doesn't matter what anyone does away with as no one can do away with God. The issues are not important, though is good should one desire to discuss them and support them or whatever one chooses to do, of course nothing wrong with that at all.

But there is nothing that can be removed, which would ever change the truth of God.

While Christians may and do have different understandings of God, such does not change who God is.

Same goes for non Christian's understandings.

However I do know that Christians have different takes on creation, and some believe in evolution. Of course whatever they believe about such, is not an issue of salvation. It is one's understanding of things.

I didn't watch the youtube, and I am mainly using your post as a springboard, and not so much as to say I disagree but is an attempt in this thread to those who will read to realize what is important and what is not important in the grand scheme of things, what we are about, the gospel, and serving others and all we are given to do.

Again, nothing wrong at all with anyone supporting or defending positions on a matter, or otherwise, but what it does most often, is distract from Jesus.

It keeps focus on things having nothing to do with a persons need for salvation, and all which we recieved due to Jesus' death and resurrection; all we were freed from and the many things due to what Jesus did.

Not saying is what you are doing at all, but in theology forums the topics often times detract from Jesus and focus and imply things such as if a believer then would believe thusly, and only non believers believe thusly.

There's more to the story on creation I'm leaving out here as pertains to Romans 1, men without excuse, and if need be will go into that in another post.

To summarize, can take away anything at all in this world, bibles, church buildings, anything, and neither does it remove us from Christ, nor does it change the fact that God is God.

blessings,
tapero

 

[mont974x4]

I beleive the lie of evolution does take away from Christ. It takes the authority and power of God and gives it to mere chance and really offers no solid answers for how things began.


It also denies Scripture. In Genesis 1 and 2 God clearly defines the day as being a single light/dark cycle and commands that living creatures reproduce after their own kind.

 

[tapero]

I beleive the lie of evolution does take away from Christ. It takes the authority and power of God and gives it to mere chance and really offers no solid answers for how things began.


It also denies Scripture. In Genesis 1 and 2 God clearly defines the day as being a single light/dark cycle and commands that living creatures reproduce after their own kind.

Hi Mont!

I understand what you mean, but how can anything take away from God. Nothing can, nothing at all.

And we know there are Christians who do not believe creation at all.

Jesus in no way concerned himself with matters of the world. He didn't get into philisophical arguments for the sake of arguing or for saying Ceasar is wrong, etc. He was about the Kingdom, and nothing more, but about the Kingdom.

He shared who He is, who the Father is and what we are to be on about, which is to preach the gospel, and all the rest we're given.

you wrote:

I beleive the lie of evolution does take away from Christ. It takes the authority and power of God and gives it to mere chance and really offers no solid answers for how things began.

How can anything take away from Jesus? How can anything take away from the authority and power of God?

satan lied about God in Genesis. Did it change who God is? of course we know the answer is no.

Once one is in Christ, then their walk begins, and should they choose to believe in evolution over creation it is their understanding, and one can believe in creation and have little to no understanding about God at all, while another believing evolution can have a deeper understanding of God and visa versa.

Whether the flood occurred, which I believe, creation, (genesis) the flood, etc are literal, but it does not matter at all if to other Christians it is not literal.

We come to Christ and grow all our lives in Christ.

God who began a good work in us, will complete it.

That some will take things to try to disprove God etc, changes God not.

How does it give to mere chance, since nothing anyone can say or do changes who God actually is.

Jesus didn't say believe in Genesis to come to Jesus, and again, once we're in Jesus our walk begins.

When I came to Christ, issues were not even on my radar and I rather figure much same for many, though not of course for all.

As these can be stumbling blocks.

And why insist on creation to one struggling in wanting to know Jesus (thereby detracting from Jesus) when who cares what one believes on this matter, what does matter is Jesus and faith and trust in Jesus being born again, a new creation in Christ and on about the business Gods' given us to be on about.

nothing any angel (including falling ones) or person does changes who God is.

There are so many held beliefs by Christians which affect their understanding of God, but it does not affect who God is nor ever will.

So the one who believes the reed (red) sea did not actually part, in no way equals that God was powerless to part the Red Sea. It's just a persons understanding and belief.

If they can't take it as truth, they can't.

blessings,
tapero

 

[mont974x4]

While you are technically correct, we can not take anything away from God. However, people teach false doctrines, different gospels and make choices and believe things that deny Him and His rightful place in their lives.

I'm not sure I'd say evolutionists can be saved as, IMO, they follow another god. Of course, I'm talking about people who have read His Truth in Scripture and choose to reject it.

 

[tapero]

While you are technically correct, we can not take anything away from God. However, people teach false doctrines, different gospels and make choices and believe things that deny Him and His rightful place in their lives.

I'm not sure I'd say evolutionists can be saved as, IMO, they follow another god. Of course, I'm talking about people who have read His Truth in Scripture and choose to reject it.

How does a Christian who believes evolution is how things occurred make them not a believer or not saved?

When you came to Christ, did you say Jesus I commit my life to you and by the way, i believe creation in Genesis, and the flood, and the reed sea parting and I understand why babies, animals and whole nations needed be wiped out at your command etc, etc, etc.

Or rather did you come to Christ and your walk begin and you slowly gained understanding which you hold to today, which will by the way keep changing as the more we are learning of God, the more of God we know, the more love we know, etc.

In heaven, it's not going to stop there. We will still be learning of God for eternity. We will constantly be growing as we are now.

As you know there are different doctrines believers hold to.

Are you also going to say that because of such, that only the ones who possibly have a specific doctrine right that only they are saved? (and of course where I refer to right, means right to you.)

The issues Christian are onto at times are well used by satan to keep people from Jesus (the Christian alone does it, and satan perpetuates it, as is satan is saying; yes let's keep this focal and a critical point, and yes, look how many I can keep from God by the lie that says you must believe in creation to be saved and to the non believers, yes, they are fools for believing creation so toss Jesus out too)

All wasted...the gospel not going forth..for issues...is apparently what many Christians are about.. The issues have nothing to do with Jesus and salvation except as what pertains in coming to Jesus.

Let's say one non believer has only one thing keeping him from God; creation, and believes all evolved.

Are you going to tell that person, right, you can not come to Jesus till you believe as I believe and until you accept the truth in the bible as pertains to creation and understand it as I understand it as without such you can not be saved.

Don't you see that these issues which Christians fight over are used by satan to keep people from Jesus?

And you even think one can not be a believer and hold to evolution?

Where in the bible is that, and what does that at all have to do with the gospel?

And why judge another person by such to say such of them.

just making points here

And where again is Jesus on about issues the Christian world uses to keep people from the kingdom?

blessings,
tapero

 

[mont974x4]

How is a person who denies important aspects of God, despite seeing the truth in Scripture, supposed to be saved? Again, we're not talking about babes in Christ but learned people.

Were not talking about a non-essential like dunked vs sprinkled were talking about the very nature of God.

 

[tapero]

How is a person who denies important aspects of God, despite seeing the truth in Scripture, supposed to be saved? Again, we're not talking about babes in Christ but learned people.

Were not talking about a non-essential like dunked vs sprinkled were talking about the very nature of God.

What did you know when you came to Jesus?

I knew very little.

One doesn't get the things of God until they are in Christ. They are dead prior to that time.

How is creation, that God created all an important aspect that a non christian need know at all or be worried about in order to come to Christ. It doesn't.

but Christians will make that hoop for em;

It's not what brings a person to Jesus.

Or;

are you talking about believers in your post?

how can they deny truths? they can because they have free will to do so. A Christian who may be a scientist may not accept creation. Does that make Him think less of God or lessen who God is? I rather doubt it. He just can not accept creation as it's written. (doesn't have to be a scientist, i just chose a profession -tho intentionally chose that one)

What is critical? Critical is coming to Christ, and there again are many many beliefs held by Christians.

And they are under God who will work in them all their lives.

What does creation/evolution have to do with being in Christ?

What does believing the flood have to do with being in Christ?

What does the Reed Sea parting have to do with being in Christ?

As you know we are all about faith.

Again, you are on to what Jesus was not concerned with at all.

People always tried to detract from Jesus and continue to this day to do so. It's not anyone's fault or and it isn't wrong to discuss topics and feel strongly over things, but they are not of eternal consequence issues and can name you the issues which famous pastors and others keep making the church focus on instead of Jesus.

Christians are on about worldy matters; and Jesus said to be about Kingdom matters.

who to vote for
potter
gay marriage
usa a christian nation
prayer in school
10 commandments in public areas
christ in christmas
christian rights
etc

and on and on about things which do not matter, as pertains to eternity;

christians spend billions on all this stuff and what matters is people coming to Christ

Once a person is in Jesus, we grow...

and the lies being taught..

which so many are falling for..

are the very famous preachers and certain others in the 'christian realm of who's who' who perpetuate that this is what Christians need to be about

not bad to have a voice on things..

however, on the above list..there is not one thing I see pertains at all to the Kingdom and what Jesus gave us to be on about. nor was Jesus on about any of the above issues...

and yet is what the focus is on..

 

[Hentenza]

God's creation is a powerfull testimony to the fact there is a Creator.

Many people over the years have attemted to do away with creation and replace it with the theory of evolution thus doing away with a Creator.

God tells us that if we reject His reality the stones will cry out for Him.

Luke 19:40 But He answered and said to them, "I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTICjwUhSys

Ahhh!!! The truths of You tube.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

It's really a slippery slope... I don't think it dictates your salvation, but honestly, the attitude of some evolutionists towards the biblical position really makes one wonder.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Personally I'm a young earth creationist, but I don't see a big problem with people believing in theistic evolution. As long as it's theistic, of course. We don't really know if Genesis is supposed to be read literally or symbolically...I read it literally and that works for me, but I don't know for sure. If I ever find out that theistic evolution was true, I wouldn't be too upset. But I'll only believe in it if God Himself tells me

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm leaving it up to God.

peace

monica

 

[Catholic Christian]

FROM The Catechism Of The Catholic Church:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt1art1p4.htm


III. "The World Was Created for the Glory of God"


293 Scripture and Tradition never cease to teach and celebrate this fundamental truth: "The world was made for the glory of God."134 St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things "not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it,"135 for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: "Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand."136 The First Vatican Council explains:

• This one, true God, of his own goodness and "almighty power," not for increasing his own beatitude, nor for attaining his perfection, but in order to manifest this perfection through the benefits which he bestows on creatures, with absolute freedom of counsel "and from the beginning of time, made out of nothing both orders of creatures, the spiritual and the corporeal. . . ."137

294 The glory of God consists in the realization of this manifestation and communication of his goodness, for which the world was created. God made us "to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace,"138 for "the glory of God is man fully alive; moreover man's life is the vision of God: if God's revelation through creation has already obtained life for all the beings that dwell on earth, how much more will the Word's manifestation of the Father obtain life for those who see God."139 The ultimate purpose of creation is that God "who is the creator of all things may at last become ‘all in all,' thus simultaneously assuring his own glory and our beatitude."140

IV. The Mystery of Creation

God creates by wisdom and love

295 We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom.141 It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom, and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."142 Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."143God creates "out of nothing"

296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance.144 God creates freely "out of nothing":145

• If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.146

297 Scripture bears witness to faith in creation "out of nothing" as a truth full of promise and hope. Thus the mother of seven sons encourages them for martyrdom:

• I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws. . . . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.147

298 Since God could create everything out of nothing, he can also, through the Holy Spirit, give spiritual life to sinners by creating a pure heart in them148 and bodily life to the dead through the Resurrection. God "gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist."149 And since God was able to make light shine in darkness by his Word, he can also give the light of faith to those who do not yet know him.150

 

[MrSnow]

Muslims believe that God created the heavens and the earth. They're no Christians.

Jews believe that God created the heavens and the earth. They're not Christians.

Most pagan religions believe that the universe was created by "god" or some pantheon of gods. They're not Christians.

The issue is not whether life changes over time or not. The issue is not natural selection. The issue is not survival of the fittest.

One's view of the exact mechanisms that got the world to its present condition doesn't make one a Christian, since many other people who are not Christians have origins beliefs that are similar to, if not identical to, that of what a lot of Christians believe.

The issue with evolution is not evolution. The issue is that there are people who accept evolution and also deny the existence of God. There were people who denied God before the theory of evolution was formulated. But evolution and atheism are not one and the same thing. There just happen to be people in both camps.

Evolution is not a theory of origins. Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with the origins of life. Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with non-life. Evolution does not, and CANNOT, seek to explain the origins of the universe. All those things are beyond the scope of evolution. Evolution ONLY seeks to explain how life adapts to its environment and how populations change over time.

Whether or not life changes in the way that evolution proposes has nothing to do with how life got there in the first place. That is a completely different field of study altogether.

On another note, I have a little exercise that might be fun. Read Genesis 1 all the way through. As you read it draw a picture of what is being described. Draw the model of the universe that Genesis 1 gives us. Then look at the picture. It's a neat picture.

 

[Technocrat2010]

I beleive the lie of evolution does take away from Christ. It takes the authority and power of God and gives it to mere chance and really offers no solid answers for how things began.

Straw-man fallacy. Evolution does not happen by chance, nor does it profess to happen by chance.

It also denies Scripture. In Genesis 1 and 2 God clearly defines the day as being a single light/dark cycle and commands that living creatures reproduce after their own kind.

You'd have to establish why the literal interpretation of the account is the only correct interpretation of the Bible.

 

[ArnautDaniel]

A person that believes God created life on Earth via evolution, still believes that God created life on Earth and is a creator.

The problem here has absolutely nothing to do with the belief in God as creator, it has to do with a particular narrow reading of a couple parts of the Bible that some people would force everyone else to accept.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Muslims believe that God created the heavens and the earth. They're no Christians.

Jews believe that God created the heavens and the earth. They're not Christians.

Most pagan religions believe that the universe was created by "god" or some pantheon of gods. They're not Christians.

The issue is not whether life changes over time or not. The issue is not natural selection. The issue is not survival of the fittest.

One's view of the exact mechanisms that got the world to its present condition doesn't make one a Christian, since many other people who are not Christians have origins beliefs that are similar to, if not identical to, that of what a lot of Christians believe.

The issue with evolution is not evolution. The issue is that there are people who accept evolution and also deny the existence of God. There were people who denied God before the theory of evolution was formulated. But evolution and atheism are not one and the same thing. There just happen to be people in both camps.

Evolution is not a theory of origins. Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with the origins of life. Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with non-life. Evolution does not, and CANNOT, seek to explain the origins of the universe. All those things are beyond the scope of evolution. Evolution ONLY seeks to explain how life adapts to its environment and how populations change over time.

Whether or not life changes in the way that evolution proposes has nothing to do with how life got there in the first place. That is a completely different field of study altogether.

On another note, I have a little exercise that might be fun. Read Genesis 1 all the way through. As you read it draw a picture of what is being described. Draw the model of the universe that Genesis 1 gives us. Then look at the picture. It's a neat picture.

Interesting. I am still studying on the Hebrew language and culture. I found this interesting

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_concepts.html

The Beginning and the End - Circular Time
[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]Time is not linear it is circular. A clock is not a timeline but a circle for the simple reason that time does not begin or stop, it continues without beginning or end. In the same fashion days and years are also circular. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]If the timeline above for the span of the earth and man is bent back onto itself we create a circle of time. With a circular view of time our perspective on the beginning and end of the earth and man change. No longer is the beginning the beginning and the end the end, but a continual cycle of beginnings and endings. While this view of time is contrary to our western way of thinking, it is consistent with other views from other cultures. The ancient Hebrews of the Bible and the people of the orient have always understood time, the past, present and future, as circular. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, Book Antiqua, Palatino, Georgia]How many of these cycles, or eras, have existed in the earth and man's past? In the Biblical text there are actually five cycles.[/FONT]

1. Genesis 1:1-2 suggests that something existed prior to Genesis 1:1.
2. The creation of Genesis 1:3 to the fall of man in Genesis 3.
3. From the expulsion of man from the Garden of Eden, to Genesis 6 and the Flood.
4. Genesis 10 with Noah and proceeding to beyond the modern time.
5. The "New Heavens and New Earth" as prophesied by the prophets.

 

[Servant222]

With regard to the opening post, and the video: if you want to see a refutation of the work of Dr. Robert Gentry on polonium haloes, check out this article:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

The article questions Dr. Gentry's scientific methods, offers a valid alternative theory for the formation of the polonium haloes and, most important, points to the masses of other independent evidence that supports the notion of an old earth. Dr. Gentry basically ignores all this other evidence- which can't be done if one is trying to use science to prove a Biblical concept.

I like MoNiCa's post on this though:

Personally I'm a young earth creationist, but I don't see a big problem with people believing in theistic evolution. As long as it's theistic, of course. We don't really know if Genesis is supposed to be read literally or symbolically...I read it literally and that works for me, but I don't know for sure. If I ever find out that theistic evolution was true, I wouldn't be too upset. But I'll only believe in it if God Himself tells me

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm leaving it up to God.

And I would add: this is not a salvation issue, so we shouldn't take too passionate a position on such matters. Us humans are mere specks in the immensity of God's universe and we need to accept the fact that we can't possibly understand some of these matters, and so we need to be very careful when we try and interpret and use scripture as if it is a scientific textbook which has all the detailed answers.

 

[gluadys]

I beleive the lie of evolution does take away from Christ. It takes the authority and power of God

Evolution does nothing of the sort. Only people can do that--or rather unsuccessfully attempt to do that.

and gives it to mere chance

Evolution is not based on mere chance. You are confusing a part with the whole.

Besides, who says God never uses chance?

and really offers no solid answers for how things began.

Evolution is not about how things began. It is about how things change over time.

It also denies Scripture. In Genesis 1 and 2 God clearly defines the day as being a single light/dark cycle

Evolution makes no comment on the definition of "day".

and commands that living creatures reproduce after their own kind.

Well if "kind"="species" we have agreement here between Genesis and evolution. Evolution also says all creatures will reproduce other creatures of the same species as themselves.

 

[Bushido216]

I beleive the lie of evolution does take away from Christ. It takes the authority and power of God and gives it to mere chance and really offers no solid answers for how things began.


It also denies Scripture. In Genesis 1 and 2 God clearly defines the day as being a single light/dark cycle and commands that living creatures reproduce after their own kind.

This kind of thinking is a large part of why Christianity is something of a laughing stock in some parts of the world.

"Either Genesis 1/2 is literally false or modern scientific knowledge is false."

I can clearly see through some very simple observations that the world does not fit a literal interpretation of Genesis.

By that thinking, Genesis is false.

I don't believe that the Lord sat down one day and patched the Universe together.

But I KNOW the Lord created my soul.

 

[notto]

..