Evolution vs. The Laws of Physics

[Pete Harcoff]

So, does that mean they're right? There are alot of people out there who have and teach false gospels and are accepted (Benny Hiin, and the whole TBN crew... There are more though), but they aren't right.... In fact, many of them are so wrong that it's gross.....

"Wrong" is relative, though. You think they are wrong, they think you are wrong. The important thing to remember is that your particular view of scripture is your view. Only God knows for sure what is the "correct" interpretation of scripture.

Pete, what do you believe?

I'm agnostic. I believe that while there might be a god or gods, religions are most likely man-made. In other words, everyone is wrong.

 

[Lyle]

The Shrinking sun

You would love to debate us on the grounds of other grounds. LOL. In other words you want us to debate you and you can PROVE their is a God but we cannot use science to argue with you? I bet you just want to recite scripture as proof? LOL. You want to site the text from your own belief system and that is supposed to be a closed case? LOL. Every religion has a text that tells them they are correct, what makes yours different-let me guess? Because it says so, in said text! LOL. OK, so you want to debate us and can prove God by not using science. GO FOR IT-The floor is yours.

Did i say that? I couldn't debate the falsehood of anyother religion (any sensible one) on the basis of it's own grounds... I have found that every religion but one has mahor riffs anf flaws...

What makes you sure you aren't one of those people Lyle? What is right to you, if it coincides with your interpretation of the Bible?

I interpret the Bible as it says.... Those people have added in things, and have taken things out. They have strayed from what the Bible really says and states.. Have you studied it?

False, sounding like your looking down your nose lyle. There are plenty of Christians here.

I am not looking down my nose at anyone, no one at all. I'm basing thing on things that they believe and those things I have heard them say... Again, I didn't say all, and about everyone on this board.

Ughhh oh, Lyle you are making a very fundamental mistake. You are thinking of when the Bible says 'expect to face conflict when you speak the word of God'. You are making the mistake of thinking because you are facing resistance it is because you are speaking God's word and therefore you must be right. As we read from your posts, we know this is not the case. You are facing resistance because of your bad science data, NOT because of your belief in a Deity. I myself believe in a higher poewer, Lyle. So yo uare saying the University of Michigan's info on the Big Bang differs from what we have told you? I Graduated from Michigan Lyle with a Biology degree. They do not run a Creationist bad science platform at that school. It is one of the foremost Universities in the world. I will look at the article and see how it is different than what we have told you

This upon the grounds that you knew what I was reffering to... I know I'm not speaking God's Word, I'm reffering to science, which is not God's Word..... I admit I may be wrong in some areas, though

 

[LorentzHA]

Lyle- Evolution and the Big Bang are not the same thing! You have been told this man ytimes but yet you still persist! Do you read any posts other than your own? You come here to argue topics you know nothing about? Still waiting re: your challenge of a debate where we cannot use science (in your own words). Whenever you are ready, please begin....

 

[Pete Harcoff]

The Shrinking sun

I'll see your "shrinking sun" and raise you one Legend of the Shrinking Sun (this article specifically refutes your article; and both of these articles are over 15 years old, to boot).

 

[LorentzHA]

So you are using already falsified data and bad scioence to prove God? You are sure not going to convince us using that. Most of us have a science degree if not a couple. You are running on emotion, not logic. Are you trying to convince yourself or us?? Ask yourself that.

 

[Lyle]

"Wrong" is relative, though. You think they are wrong, they think you are wrong. The important thing to remember is that your particular view of scripture is your view. Only God knows for sure what is the "correct" interpretation of scripture.



I'm agnostic. I believe that while there might be a god or gods, religions are most likely man-made. In other words, everyone is wrong.

(Sorry to everyone; I'm trying to keep up here, but you all post way too fast... I'll sit down on a seperate occasion and answer those who refuted my posts
Hey Pete,

"Wrong" is relative, though. You think they are wrong, they think you are wrong. The important thing to remember is that your particular view of scripture is your view. Only God knows for sure what is the "correct" interpretation of scripture.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong with that statement. There is a right and there is a wrong. God will hhold them as teachers to higher plain of judgement. They spout of falsehood, and that which is against the word of God.

I'm agnostic. I believe that while there might be a god or gods, religions are most likely man-made. In other words, everyone is wrong.

Well, then that explains your previous comment You say "most-likely?" Wouldn't it fare a bit better for you if you knew for sure.. Because if there was one religion that is true, it may land your butt in hell if you don't find it... Or somehting along those lines, there are only a few religions (base ones) that have no punishment for wrongdoing. The way you stated that, you sound like a Big-Footer... With all the unsurities.
But I would challenage you, if you are willing, try and find a riff in Christianity

 

[LorentzHA]

Arrrghhh..Lyle, by you even mentioning a "shrinking Sun" shows you know NOTHING about stellar mechanics! When I read that I turned RED, for you. I was embarrassed for you Lyle! Our Star (The Sun has converted half of its hydrogen to helium. It is enetering the second haldf of its life. As it approaches the end of its life in a few Billion years it will go Red Giant in which it will GROW. I have some homework for you Lyle. Look up some basic terms:


Red Shifting
CMB
Solar System
Galaxy
Universe
Red Giant
Stellar Mechanics
Gravity and finally:

Mythos

 

[Lyle]

So you are using already falsified data and bad scioence to prove God? You are sure not going to convince us using that. Most of us have a science degree if not a couple. You are running on emotion, not logic. Are you trying to convince yourself or us?? Ask yourself that.

Actually, I didn't see it was that old, when I posted it..

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Actually you couldn't be more wrong with that statement. There is a right and there is a wrong. God will hhold them as teachers to higher plain of judgement. They spout of falsehood, and that which is against the word of God.

You missed my point. I was referring to people's interpretations of the Bible. No one has a lock on what is the "correct" Biblical interpretation. You could just as easily be as wrong in your own Biblical interpretation as the next person. Remember, you're a fallible human just like the rest of us.

Well, then that explains your previous comment You say "most-likely?" Wouldn't it fare a bit better for you if you knew for sure.. Because if there was one religion that is true, it may land your butt in hell if you don't find it... Or somehting along those lines, there are only a few religions (base ones) that have no punishment for wrongdoing.

And if I pick the wrong religion and wind up in Hell anyway? I have no baseline for which religion is the "truth" and which ones are false. So, I look at them all equally.

But I'm not going to buy into a religion out of fear of punishment. Doing so seem extremely foolish and paranoid, to me.

The way you stated that, you sound like a Big-Footer... With all the unsurities.

A Big-Footer? Are you implying I believe in Big Foot?

But I would challenage you, if you are willing, try and find a riff in Christianity

I have nothing against Christianity and am not going to go out of my way to disprove it. I'd much rather try to understand it, which is what I am doing on these forums. Personally, I think Christianity is fundamentally illogical (namely the whole idea of sin, punishment and supposed free will).

 

[Jet Black]

Actually, I didn't see it was that old, when I posted it..

you need to be alot more careful. remember that some posters here have been studying this sort of stuff since before you were born. I myself have been studying nothing but physics for the past six and a bit years, and even at a highish level in the five years preceeding that. Just on my university education alone, I have been studying physics day in day out since you were 11. Frumous and Lucaspa have ben studying their fields for what, twenty or thirty years.(coo they're so old ) If you really wanna learn about this stuff, then most of us here are willing to teach it.

 

[ForeRunner]

Lyle, read the list of books I presented, then you'll see your errors.

 

[LorentzHA]

Have you studied it?

Yes Lyle I have read it TWICE -cover to cover. I was born and raised catholic. I left Catholocism (not because I was against it but because I wanted to spiritually branch out) I then went to a Church of Christ, here in Texas. I worshipped there for a couple years until the ignorance became too much to handle. Picture a Bubba pulling up to church in his pick-up truck spitting Copenhagen out the window and then having another Bubba in Bible study instruct the first one to ask non believers if they have ever heard of the Second Law of Thermo as was way to quell an argument. Pretty dangerous, I thought to whip out science terms and have no idea what they mean. When they kept ref. to the Solar System as the Galaxy I knew it was time for me to fly. Recently I have been visiting Synagogue with some school mates. At 33 I have studied religion, wuite a bit from the inside looking out and vice versa! The Jews do not believe Genesis to be literal and it is THEIR book-go figure!

 

[Lyle]

you need to be alot more careful. remember that some posters here have been studying this sort of stuff since before you were born. I myself have been studying nothing but physics for the past six and a bit years, and even at a highish level in the five years preceeding that. Just on my university education alone, I have been studying physics day in day out since you were 11. Frumous and Lucaspa have ben studying their fields for what, twenty or thirty years.(coo they're so old ) If you really wanna learn about this stuff, then most of us here are willing to teach it.

If you really wanna learn about this stuff, then most of us here are willing to teach it.

You are right.... Nobodies going anywhere in this thread.. I need to go back to the drawing board and study a bit more before a reattempt to debunk any theory of Evolution.... But you are the first who has challenaged me in such a way as wrong and to re-research..

You missed my point. I was referring to people's interpretations of the Bible. No one has a lock on what is the "correct" Biblical interpretation. You could just as easily be as wrong in your own Biblical interpretation as the next person. Remember, you're a fallible human just like the rest of us.

Again I say, you couldn't have hit it any "wronger " The Bible does have rights and wrongs.. And yes, many people may interpret different things different ways. That doesn't mean it's right. There are rules about women teaching men and women in church, but still people do it. The Bible has alot to say about this "speaking in tounges," and almost any who believe that have it worng. (read the passages in the Greek context and you will see). There is a right and wrong way to interpret something.. Though there are other grounds. Like Calvinism and such, but somehtings are blatently wrong...

And if I pick the wrong religion and wind up in Hell anyway? I have no baseline for which religion is the "truth" and which ones are false. So, I look at them all equally.

But I'm not going to buy into a religion out of fear of punishment. Doing so seem extremely foolish and paranoid, to me.

So true, but there are ways you can tell.

A Big-Footer? Are you implying I believe in Big Foot?

LOL... no

I have nothing against Christianity and am not going to go out of my way to disprove it. I'd much rather try to understand it, which is what I am doing on these forums.

Hmmmm.... I'm not sure that's a good thing. I have found there are a good deal (I won't cite any) or people hear that don't even know truely what the Bible says.... Maybe try CGR some of the best Theologians and Christians I know of that reside on the web... Or maybe check out the Puritian forums

 

[LorentzHA]

Actually, I didn't see it was that old, when I posted it..

Actually, if I were you, I would not post anything unless you are familar with it and are posting it to give your point Oooomph. I would not post anything about stellar mechanics, if you are not even sure what it is. Just some friendly advice. I see people come here all the time and cut and paste from "Dr." Dino. Trouble is, the info they paste has been falsified YEAR ago. In some cases 140 years ago! When people do that it already turns 1/2 of us off. If you want to bring people to Christ, using bad science and falsified data, is not the way.

 

[LorentzHA]

You are right.... Nobodies going anywhere in this thread.. I need to go back to the drawing board and study a bit more before a reattempt to debunk any theory of Evolution.... But you are the first who has challenaged me in such a way as wrong and to re-research..

You could go somewhere but you have to be willing to learn AND listen. Lyle do you realize that ANY of us here would LOVE to be able to debunk the theory of evolution? If it was that easy it would have been done LONG ago. Lyle-Evolution has Libraries full of data and pictres. If anyone could falsify (I mean really falsify it) that person would become very famous and VERY wealthy. Please remember that The Big Bang and Evolution are not the same thing. Argue one or the other. Evolution is not a religion or faith. It actually has tangible evidence!!

 

[Lyle]

Yes Lyle I have read it TWICE -cover to cover. I was born and raised catholic. I left Catholocism (not because I was against it but because I wanted to spiritually branch out) I then went to a Church of Christ, here in Texas. I worshipped there for a couple years until the ignorance became too much to handle. Picture a Bubba pulling up to church in his pick-up truck spitting Copenhagen out the window and then having another Bubba in Bible study instruct the first one to ask non believers if they have ever heard of the Second Law of Thermo as was way to quell an argument. Pretty dangerous, I thought to whip out science terms and have no idea what they mean. When they kept ref. to the Solar System as the Galaxy I knew it was time for me to fly. Recently I have been visiting Synagogue with some school mates. At 33 I have studied religion, wuite a bit from the inside looking out and vice versa! The Jews do not believe Genesis to be literal and it is THEIR book-go figure!

One can read the Bible, and not understand. For the natural man cannot understand spiritual things. Whether you are truely saved or not, I cannot tell. But don't let that change your mind about Christianity.... yes, there may be some that are unlearned. But ther are some that know a GREAT deal. I'm no professional scienctist, but I'm sure I probally know more about Theology then most, we're not all gifted in the same area.

It seems in all your studies of religion they didn't teach you much, the Old testiment was fully created till later (at least as we know it now). The Jews had the words of the prophets and those of the law, but as we know wasn't reated till many years later... But it is given to all men, any who will believe. The Bible is written to Christians, since those who are not saved cannot truely understand it.... Just as many Jews will deny, but I pulled ut over 21 pages of Prophcies of Christ from the Old Testiment...

The Oldtestiment was written for our learning and edification. because those who do not learn from the mistakes of history, are doomed to repeat them. Yet those who are Christians and have believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, it is for them. They are the ones with the hope of eternal life, because they are the children of God.


But I didn't ask if you read it, I asked if you studied it.... There is a hugh difference..

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Again I say, you couldn't have hit it any "wronger " The Bible does have rights and wrongs.. And yes, many people may interpret different things different ways. That doesn't mean it's right. There are rules about women teaching men and women in church, but still people do it. The Bible has alot to say about this "speaking in tounges," and almost any who believe that have it worng. (read the passages in the Greek context and you will see). There is a right and wrong way to interpret something.. Though there are other grounds. Like Calvinism and such, but somehtings are blatently wrong...

Try applying those last four words to yourself. Then maybe you'll realize where I'm coming from.

So true, but there are ways you can tell.

Unfortunately, the only way to determine The Truth(tm) seems to be entirely subjective. And while you may be convinced you have The Truth(tm), I can find other people who think differently and are convinced they have The Truth(tm). Which is why I'm believe that the most likely scenario is they are all wrong.

 

[Lyle]

You could go somewhere but you have to be willing to learn AND listen. Lyle do you realize that ANY of us here would LOVE to be able to debunk the theory of evolution? If it was that easy it would have been done LONG ago. Lyle-Evolution has Libraries full of data and pictres. If anyone could falsify (mean really falsify it) that person would become very famous and VERY wealthy. Please remember that The Big Bang and Evolution are not the same thing. Argue one or the other. Ecvolution is not a religion or faith. It actually has tangible evidence!!

Haha, I suppose you are right... It has changed much from what I was taught i guess (when it first was thought up). But yeah, I may take you all up on that offer, but I'll read around on the web, and on updated articles and see..... I think the first thign i need to do is get a grasp on what the Big Bang is, and not just what I have been taught.... But thank you all

 

[ForeRunner]

If you want my advice, ignore the web for now. Go read those books, they are published and reviewed by the established scientific community. You'll avoid all the nonsense that way.

 

[Jet Black]

Haha, I suppose you are right... It has changed much from what I was taught i guess (when it first was thought up). But yeah, I may take you all up on that offer, but I'll read around on the web, and on updated articles and see..... I think the first thign i need to do is get a grasp on what the Big Bang is, and not just what I have been taught.... But thank you all

that's cool, start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang