• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

evolution vs. Evolution

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP

I think the ancients called the planets "stars" because they believed the planets were stars--just like the stars of Ursa Major or Orion, except for the fact that they were not fixed in a constellation.

I think you are inventing ad hoc "ancient definitions" to suggest the biblical writers knew more than they could have in their time.




Not necessarily. When I stretch out a sheet across my bed I am not expanding the sheet, merely unfolding it to its full measure. When I hang curtains and stretch them across the window, neither the window not the curtain actually expands. And if you look at the contexts in which "stretched out the heavens" occurs, it is more like stretching out curtains or unfolding a tent than expanding a volume.

And they had no concept of the heavens being "space". (They would probably have agreed with Aristotle that nature abhors a vacuum.) The biblical text is consistent with a cosmos surrounded on all sides, above and below by water. Btw, a bird can fly through a tent after it has been stretched out too.



True, and for all practical purposes, the universe expansion has come to a halt.


Don't know where you got that from. Last I heard the rate of expansion was accelerating. Accelerating universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you have more recent information to the contrary?



But the slow expansion we see today ironically enabled us to grasp the concept of an expanding heavens (something the ancients already knew about).

Except they never say "stretching". They always put it in the past tense "stretched" (at least if I am to believe our translations). So it is not the same concept at all. I understand Hebrew has both a perfect and an imperfect past. I wonder which is used?

No, all in all, you are doing yourself what you described as pouring modern meanings into an ancient text. Not a good interpretive practice.
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Depends what you mean by "creationism". After all theistic evolutionists are also called evolutionary creationists. As evolutionary creationists we do believe that God created heavens and the earth and all things in them seen and unseen.
Let me phrase it differently then. Theistic evolution has not been the been the majority opinion of the church through it's history.


Our bible is silent on many matters. But it's not silent on the creation of man and woman. The first man was formed from the soil and the first woman, the mother of all living, was formed from him. There are no monkeylike creatures to be seen. So it makes sense that throughout history the special creation of man and woman has been the majority opinion of the church. And it still is in many churches.

So when Dunban commented on the seemingly large number of creationists, even today, I agreed with him.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Let me phrase it differently then. Theistic evolution has not been the been the majority opinion of the church through it's history.

Of course not.

It could only become the majority opinion of the church after the fact was known. Just as the spherical shape and movement of the earth could only become the majority opinion of the church after those facts were known. Just as bacteria and viruses (rather than demons) being a principal cause of disease, and natural forces (rather than divine anger) being the causes of earthquakes, volcanoes and other natural disasters could only become the majority opinion of the church after these phenomena were discovered and understood.

The fact that 2nd century Christians believed none of these things doesn't mean we should reject them today.




Our bible is filled with a great many metaphors which it is ridiculous to literalize.

Most reputable theological colleges do not teach a literal understanding of the creation accounts.
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Our bible is filled with a great many metaphors which it is ridiculous to literalize.

Most reputable theological colleges do not teach a literal understanding of the creation accounts.
You've piqued my curiosity. Would you tell me when you think literal OT history begins, and the reason for your choice?

I'll share first. I think literal history begins in Genesis chapter 2 (and perhaps even in chapter 1 if the creation of the universe was anything like the cosmologies of Humphreys or Hartnett). And one of the reasons I believe chapter 2 and onward is literal is because in places like Luke's genealogy and the gallery of faith in Hebrews 11 the NT speaks of those earliest people no differently than it speaks of later people.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP

First, the phrase "literal history" makes no sense. "Literal" applied to a text refers to the level of meaning of a word, phrase, sentence. A "literal" meaning of any text is that where the common sense meaning (usually an empirical meaning) is intended. So where "day" is used literally, it means either the period between sunrise or sunset or the period it takes the earth to make one full rotation on its axis (i.e. a day and a night).

But this meaning doesn't imply that the text in which it occurs is history. It could be a novel, a doctor's prescription (take one tablet each day), a weather report or a poem.

"history" has a different meaning altogether, and typically refers to events which were recorded in such a way that we can verify them from documentation. Though we must also make allowance for oral history as well. While it is not as easy to verify history handed down orally, there is often genuine remembrance of actual events in such histories. In my country, our Supreme Court has recognized the oral history retained in the traditions of indigenous people as admissible evidence when establishing land claims.

Given the very different meanings of "literal" and "history", one referring to semantic meaning and the other to records of events, and given that records of events need not be literal and literal texts need not be historical, it makes little sense to couple them.

I expect what you are really asking is where in scripture can we be sure that the events in the narratives are about actual people and actual events.

Since there is almost no documentation of any biblical figures or events outside of scripture itself, there is very little of it we can verify as actual history. We certainly cannot draw a line at one point of scripture and say "everything before this is not history and everything after it is not." It is much more piecemeal than that with historical narrative and non-historical narrative entwined with each other all the way through.

Of course, there are delightful exceptions, where the existence of a biblical figure or event is confirmed from non-scriptural data. The best known is probably Hezekiah's building of a tunnel to safeguard the water supply of Jerusalem and his resistance to the Assyrians. The first has been verified by archeological work in Jerusalem itself and the second by the court annals of Sennacharib.

For the New Testament we also have records confirming the actual existence of political figures such as Herod, Annas & Caiaphas, and Pontius Pilate. We do not have confirmation of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, nor of his execution.


So where does that leave us? In most cases we need to evaluate the plausibility of the historical existence of biblical figures and of the stories handed down about them until they were consigned to written form.

Being unable to document that a person actually existed does not, in and of itself imply that they didn't. Without implying that everyone named from Genesis 12 on was an actual individual in history, I would set Abraham as the first plausible historic figure in scripture. I have no doubts about the actual existence of David and his successors. Nor of post-exilic figures such as Nehemiah and Ezra. Daniel, on the other hand, may not be a historical figure. Possibly not Samson either. It's hard to say when the person is presented as a figure of legend. Legends can gather around a historical person, but the stories are still legends. Even many of the stories about people whose historical existence seems more certain are more in the nature of legend than reportage.

Genealogies don't really help much because they didn't function in ancient times as they do now. Often genealogies included eponymous ancestors (i.e. it was inferred from the existence of a people such as the Moabites or Canaanites that they had an ancestor named Moab or Canaan. The inferred ancestor was given his name from the people rather than the people taking their name from the ancestor.) These "ancestors" were listed in genealogies in exactly the same way as known ancestors. We see an example in Genesis 10 where at one point, instead of giving the name of a person, the names of nationalities are listed.

So all in all, story and history, legendary tales about both fictional and historical people and events are interwoven seamlessly throughout scripture from beginning to end. It takes a careful study of texts and how they were used in ancient times, what purpose they were written for, and what the cultural meaning of the stories were to come to some decision as to how they relate to history. And obviously, any decision is likely to be controversial with some scholars granting historical status where others don't.

Sorry, that's a long answer, but the main point is that there is no simple answer. It is not a matter of demarcating that history begins in the bible at one specific place. Not even in the New Testament.
 
Upvote 0
D

Dunban

Guest

That's true. It's much easier to believe we can from a pile of dirt instead.

It's also only easier to believe in evolution if you have done your research, studied the subject and examined all the evidence. Once you've done that with an open mind, believing in creation tales becomes impossible.

I go with the evidence, not an ancient book written by men who thought the earth was flat.
 
Upvote 0
D

Dunban

Guest

Yeah, but they're not "real" Christians, I'm sure. You know the drill.

And the pentecostals would kick her right out, if they knew her scientific accolades.


I'm not concerned with "historically". I'm talking about in the present day, not 300 years ago. I'm familiar with Francis Bacon as the father of the modern day scientific method. I'm sure he'd be real impressed with what Christians are doing to science.

With all the anti-science rhetoric in Christianity these days, I often wonder why they use things such as cars, computers, smart phones or television? Not to mention modern health care. All inventions of modern science.




They are eternally in conflict with each other, like light and darkness. They can never co-exist. The replies in this thread prove that, and that is only a small, small sample compared to the rabid anti-science movement within the heart of Christianity and Islam.

Arguably, science can completely circumvent religion and religious ideas, if I may play devil's advocate for a moment. We have no evidence for a "soul", a "spirit", 6000 year old creationism, a global flood, and even matters of the heart, such as things like love, kindness, empathy and so forth can all be easily explained by biochemical processes in the brain and natural selection. If taken to the extreme, science completely removes the need for religion.

Note, that's not my view, but it is a perfectly acceptable reductionistic point of view. On the other end, we have religion which attempts to circumvent the need and place of science, while hypocritically still availing itself of all of science's discoveries and amenities.
 
Upvote 0

sfs

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2003
10,826
7,845
65
Massachusetts
✟392,321.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yeah, but they're not "real" Christians, I'm sure. You know the drill.
So you recognize the fact that it's just a small subset of Christians trying to write all of the Christians who do accept science out of the faith -- and then proceed to ignore that fact. Odd.

And the pentecostals would kick her right out, if they knew her scientific accolades.
First, Robert Bakker (who is the pentecostal) is male. Second, since Bakker's scientific achievements are well known (and since it's what he does for a living), your statement is obviously false. What's the point in just making stuff up?

They are eternally in conflict with each other, like light and darkness. They can never co-exist.
Since they do co-exist, both in the society at large and in individuals, your statement is empirically false. When your beliefs lead to embrace claims that are patently false, it's time to reevaluate those beliefs.
 
Upvote 0
F

frogman2x

Guest
 
Upvote 0
F

frogman2x

Guest
 
Upvote 0
F

frogman2x

Guest
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP


Try this for a starter.
Open Yale Courses | Introduction to the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible)

Then you can check out other major religious studies and divinity schools across the country. This course is typical of introductory courses on the Hebrew scriptures in schools that train the majority of pastors, ministers, priests and rabbis in North America (and also globally)


btw can you please start putting the backslash in front of the word "quote" in your end-quote tags? Look at the example when you bring up a message to reply to. At the end of the post you are replying to is the word QUOTE in square brackets with a backslash in front of the Q. You don't need to use all caps, but you do need the backslash to make the quote function work correctly.
 
Upvote 0
D

Dunban

Guest


No, because they're not "small." I don't know where you're living, but if it's anywhere in the United States, you would know that movement is anything but "small." Over 70% (I believe) of pastors in the U.S. believe in a literal creation of less than 6000 years ago.

When you start to examine what Christian culture actually is, then we'll talk.

To add one thing, if you knew anything about pentecostals, you'd know they are as Creationist as one could get. I would know, thanks. I belonged to different pentecostal churches for years. They vehemently hate all forms of evolution and would rather die than admit man came from a "monkey". Being a pile of dirt is so much better. : /

Whom do they co-exist for? Non-fanatical Christians? So a small, subset of normal people who just happen to believe in God? Where do I find these people? The majority of Christians do not fit the bill for that. If you actually looked around this forum, you would know I'm right.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
D

Dunban

Guest
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,668.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Actually, we can. It depends on what sources we consider authoritative.

For the New Testament we also have records confirming the actual existence of political figures such as Herod, Annas & Caiaphas, and Pontius Pilate. We do not have confirmation of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, nor of his execution.
Yet you're a Christian, so you're obviously a woman of faith.

Thanks for your thoughts on that. I'm going to suggest that the author of Hebrews 11 believed that the earlier figures of Abel, Enoch, and Noah were also actual individuals because they are spoken of no differently than Abraham and later individuals. For example: "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.".

I've heard differently, that the Table of Nations was believed to contain the names of the first men to successfully settle a particular geographic area after the dispersion. Josephus speaks at length about this in chapter 6 of Antiquities of the Jews, adding a wealth of relevant and related commentary. It's pretty apparent that Josephus believes he's commenting on actual events.

I'm going to assume that, being a Christian, you believe in the miracles of Christ such as walking on water, healing the sick with words, and raising himself from the dead. So if you believe in supernatural events in the NT without extra-Biblical support, why is it difficult to believe in supernatural events in the OT without extra-Biblical support? Wasn't God as supernatural back then?
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Actually, we can. It depends on what sources we consider authoritative.


Yet you're a Christian, so you're obviously a woman of faith.

Yep.



I expect you are quite right about the beliefs of the author of Hebrews. That doesn't mean he or she had any valid documentation of their existence. And since the only stories preserved about them are clearly legendary and all have parallels in the legends of other nations in the ANE culture, there is virtually nothing to connect them with history. We should read these stories, as Peter says, because they are examples to us.


I've heard differently, that the Table of Nations was believed to contain the names of the first men to successfully settle a particular geographic area after the dispersion.

Again, it is a belief. I can respect that.
But the uninformed beliefs of ancient peoples is no firm guide to what is and is not history.


Josephus speaks at length about this in chapter 6 of Antiquities of the Jews, adding a wealth of relevant and related commentary. It's pretty apparent that Josephus believes he's commenting on actual events.

Like many ancient writers Josephus is a mixed bag of real and not so real history. To take another example, Clement, a well respected leader in the first-century church whose letters were seriously considered for inclusion in the New Testament wrote in one of them about the phoenix as if it were a real bird. I suppose if that letter had made it into the New Testament, literalists would be insisting that such a bird really does exist.


It isn't difficult. I accept OT miracles such as Elisha making an ax head float and raising a dead child back to life, of Elijah calling fire from heaven and of course, the plagues of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, and later of the Jordan and the healing of Naaman and so forth, just as I do the miracles of the NT.

What I don't accept is inventing miracles not testified to in scripture on an ad hoc basis to bolster one's beliefs. That is just atrocious hermeneutical practice.


Wasn't God as supernatural back then?

Of course. And wasn't God also operating in the ordinary course of nature back then?

What does either question have to do with the genre of biblical texts?



I hope Calminian is reading this. This is the pattern I was talking about. First challenge from a creationist is almost always "don't you believe in miracles"?

Miracles is not the issue here. The nature of the biblical texts is the issue.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Dunban wrote:
Over 70% (I believe) of pastors in the U.S. believe in a literal creation of less than 6000 years ago.

A clear claim to test. Everyone please remember that the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.

In this case, I did your work for you (it was just a simple google search). It turns out that a Barna poll this year found that 54% of protestant pastors were creationists. Protestants make up around half of American Christianity, and as several Popes have voiced support for evolution (including UCA), it's probably safe to guess that a strong majory of Catholic priests do (after all, evolution is taught in Catholic schools).

So adding that in, it looks like around 35-45% of Christian clergy in the US are creationist. Your "over 70%" might be correct in some areas, like the South, however.

For Christians as a whole in the US, that's easy to check. Many polls have shown around 45% support for creationism in the US, with ~75% (and dropping) saying they are Christian. Assuming that nearly all of those creationists are Christian (pretty safe, I think), that makes 45/75 = 60% of Christians are creationist (a majority, but not a landslide).

I would guess that the % Christians as creationists will go up, not because the % creationist is going up, but because the % Christian is going down. Just a guess though.

Papias



http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/clergy_views_chart.jpg
 
Upvote 0
D

Dunban

Guest

Since when has "proof" ever been required in religion? lol

Anyway, here's some stats for you:

Poll: Pastors Oppose Evolution, Split on Earth's Age



Poll: Many Protestant Pastors Lean Toward Young Earth Creation

Christianity's all about that Creationism. It's a shame your Jewish cousins don't agree with you.
 
Upvote 0

Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Please check those sources. You'll notice one is by a nationally recognized, professional polling organization (Barna), and the other is by a fundamentalist propaganda group.

It would not be logical for us to reject the fake "research" by fundamentalist groups like Answers in Genesis or the Institute for Creation research, and then swallow fake "research" by a fundamentalist group like "Lifeways".

That's why a reasonable person will take the data from professional polling groups like Gallup, Barna, etc.

Papias
 
Upvote 0
D

Dunban

Guest

So all Christian groups, except Barna or whatever, is untrustworthy? Why? They take the bible more seriously than you or I.
 
Upvote 0