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evolution vs. Evolution

gluadys

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Well, they actually were stars in that nomenclature. Star was simply a word for luminary (small light in the sky). In our day the meaning has changed and both expanded in some areas, and narrowed in others and has become more specific. But that's a modern change. That in no way means the ancients were wrong in their descriptions. Both stars (modern term) and planets (modern term) are stars (ancient term) which means luminaries.

I think the ancients called the planets "stars" because they believed the planets were stars--just like the stars of Ursa Major or Orion, except for the fact that they were not fixed in a constellation.

I think you are inventing ad hoc "ancient definitions" to suggest the biblical writers knew more than they could have in their time.



Expanded and stretched are the same thing tough. They're synonyms. The ancients didn't understand the substance of the universe as we do today, but they understood the concept of expansion. In fact the heavens are called "the expanse." They knew it was an open expanse (how else could clouds move through it?) And they knew God expanded it via revelation. I find that quite amazing. I certainly wouldn't have come up with the idea of expanding space, but lo and behold, scripture had it right. The expanse was indeed expanded. In this case, science merely caught up to revelation.

Not necessarily. When I stretch out a sheet across my bed I am not expanding the sheet, merely unfolding it to its full measure. When I hang curtains and stretch them across the window, neither the window not the curtain actually expands. And if you look at the contexts in which "stretched out the heavens" occurs, it is more like stretching out curtains or unfolding a tent than expanding a volume.

And they had no concept of the heavens being "space". (They would probably have agreed with Aristotle that nature abhors a vacuum.) The biblical text is consistent with a cosmos surrounded on all sides, above and below by water. Btw, a bird can fly through a tent after it has been stretched out too.



True, and for all practical purposes, the universe expansion has come to a halt.


Don't know where you got that from. Last I heard the rate of expansion was accelerating. Accelerating universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do you have more recent information to the contrary?



But the slow expansion we see today ironically enabled us to grasp the concept of an expanding heavens (something the ancients already knew about).

Except they never say "stretching". They always put it in the past tense "stretched" (at least if I am to believe our translations). So it is not the same concept at all. I understand Hebrew has both a perfect and an imperfect past. I wonder which is used?

No, all in all, you are doing yourself what you described as pouring modern meanings into an ancient text. Not a good interpretive practice.
 
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ChetSinger

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Depends what you mean by "creationism". After all theistic evolutionists are also called evolutionary creationists. As evolutionary creationists we do believe that God created heavens and the earth and all things in them seen and unseen.
Let me phrase it differently then. Theistic evolution has not been the been the majority opinion of the church through it's history.


True, and that is what we would expect given the time in which it was written. Similarly no one's going to read the Bible and conclude the earth is a sphere unless they already believe it to be true. No one is going to read the bible and conclude the universe is expanding unless they already believe it to be true. And no one is going to read the bible and conclude that two gases combine to make water unless they already believe it to be true.

The absence of reference to post-biblical scientific discoveries in the biblical text is not an argument that they are untrue.
Our bible is silent on many matters. But it's not silent on the creation of man and woman. The first man was formed from the soil and the first woman, the mother of all living, was formed from him. There are no monkeylike creatures to be seen. So it makes sense that throughout history the special creation of man and woman has been the majority opinion of the church. And it still is in many churches.

So when Dunban commented on the seemingly large number of creationists, even today, I agreed with him.
 
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gluadys

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Let me phrase it differently then. Theistic evolution has not been the been the majority opinion of the church through it's history.

Of course not.

It could only become the majority opinion of the church after the fact was known. Just as the spherical shape and movement of the earth could only become the majority opinion of the church after those facts were known. Just as bacteria and viruses (rather than demons) being a principal cause of disease, and natural forces (rather than divine anger) being the causes of earthquakes, volcanoes and other natural disasters could only become the majority opinion of the church after these phenomena were discovered and understood.

The fact that 2nd century Christians believed none of these things doesn't mean we should reject them today.



Our bible is silent on many matters. But it's not silent on the creation of man and woman. The first man was formed from the soil and the first woman, the mother of all living, was formed from him. There are no monkeylike creatures to be seen. So it makes sense that throughout history the special creation of man and woman has been the majority opinion of the church. And it still is in many churches.

Our bible is filled with a great many metaphors which it is ridiculous to literalize.

Most reputable theological colleges do not teach a literal understanding of the creation accounts.
 
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ChetSinger

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Our bible is filled with a great many metaphors which it is ridiculous to literalize.

Most reputable theological colleges do not teach a literal understanding of the creation accounts.
You've piqued my curiosity. Would you tell me when you think literal OT history begins, and the reason for your choice?

I'll share first. I think literal history begins in Genesis chapter 2 (and perhaps even in chapter 1 if the creation of the universe was anything like the cosmologies of Humphreys or Hartnett). And one of the reasons I believe chapter 2 and onward is literal is because in places like Luke's genealogy and the gallery of faith in Hebrews 11 the NT speaks of those earliest people no differently than it speaks of later people.
 
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gluadys

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You've piqued my curiosity. Would you tell me when you think literal OT history begins, and the reason for your choice?

I'll share first. I think literal history begins in Genesis chapter 2 (and perhaps even in chapter 1 if the creation of the universe was anything like the cosmologies of Humphreys or Hartnett). And one of the reasons I believe chapter 2 and onward is literal is because in places like Luke's genealogy and the gallery of faith in Hebrews 11 the NT speaks of those earliest people no differently than it speaks of later people.

First, the phrase "literal history" makes no sense. "Literal" applied to a text refers to the level of meaning of a word, phrase, sentence. A "literal" meaning of any text is that where the common sense meaning (usually an empirical meaning) is intended. So where "day" is used literally, it means either the period between sunrise or sunset or the period it takes the earth to make one full rotation on its axis (i.e. a day and a night).

But this meaning doesn't imply that the text in which it occurs is history. It could be a novel, a doctor's prescription (take one tablet each day), a weather report or a poem.

"history" has a different meaning altogether, and typically refers to events which were recorded in such a way that we can verify them from documentation. Though we must also make allowance for oral history as well. While it is not as easy to verify history handed down orally, there is often genuine remembrance of actual events in such histories. In my country, our Supreme Court has recognized the oral history retained in the traditions of indigenous people as admissible evidence when establishing land claims.

Given the very different meanings of "literal" and "history", one referring to semantic meaning and the other to records of events, and given that records of events need not be literal and literal texts need not be historical, it makes little sense to couple them.

I expect what you are really asking is where in scripture can we be sure that the events in the narratives are about actual people and actual events.

Since there is almost no documentation of any biblical figures or events outside of scripture itself, there is very little of it we can verify as actual history. We certainly cannot draw a line at one point of scripture and say "everything before this is not history and everything after it is not." It is much more piecemeal than that with historical narrative and non-historical narrative entwined with each other all the way through.

Of course, there are delightful exceptions, where the existence of a biblical figure or event is confirmed from non-scriptural data. The best known is probably Hezekiah's building of a tunnel to safeguard the water supply of Jerusalem and his resistance to the Assyrians. The first has been verified by archeological work in Jerusalem itself and the second by the court annals of Sennacharib.

For the New Testament we also have records confirming the actual existence of political figures such as Herod, Annas & Caiaphas, and Pontius Pilate. We do not have confirmation of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, nor of his execution.


So where does that leave us? In most cases we need to evaluate the plausibility of the historical existence of biblical figures and of the stories handed down about them until they were consigned to written form.

Being unable to document that a person actually existed does not, in and of itself imply that they didn't. Without implying that everyone named from Genesis 12 on was an actual individual in history, I would set Abraham as the first plausible historic figure in scripture. I have no doubts about the actual existence of David and his successors. Nor of post-exilic figures such as Nehemiah and Ezra. Daniel, on the other hand, may not be a historical figure. Possibly not Samson either. It's hard to say when the person is presented as a figure of legend. Legends can gather around a historical person, but the stories are still legends. Even many of the stories about people whose historical existence seems more certain are more in the nature of legend than reportage.

Genealogies don't really help much because they didn't function in ancient times as they do now. Often genealogies included eponymous ancestors (i.e. it was inferred from the existence of a people such as the Moabites or Canaanites that they had an ancestor named Moab or Canaan. The inferred ancestor was given his name from the people rather than the people taking their name from the ancestor.) These "ancestors" were listed in genealogies in exactly the same way as known ancestors. We see an example in Genesis 10 where at one point, instead of giving the name of a person, the names of nationalities are listed.

So all in all, story and history, legendary tales about both fictional and historical people and events are interwoven seamlessly throughout scripture from beginning to end. It takes a careful study of texts and how they were used in ancient times, what purpose they were written for, and what the cultural meaning of the stories were to come to some decision as to how they relate to history. And obviously, any decision is likely to be controversial with some scholars granting historical status where others don't.

Sorry, that's a long answer, but the main point is that there is no simple answer. It is not a matter of demarcating that history begins in the bible at one specific place. Not even in the New Testament.
 
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Dunban

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I agree. I believe creationism has been the majority opinion of the church throughout it's history. After all, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". No one's going to read the Bible and conclude we mutated from monkey-like creatures unless they already believe it to be true.

That's true. It's much easier to believe we can from a pile of dirt instead.

It's also only easier to believe in evolution if you have done your research, studied the subject and examined all the evidence. Once you've done that with an open mind, believing in creation tales becomes impossible.

I go with the evidence, not an ancient book written by men who thought the earth was flat.
 
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Dunban

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Oh there are some prominent in the scientific world. Francis Collins is probably the best known because of his work on the Human Genome. Then there is Georges Lemaitre who was the first to propose the Big Bang theory. Then there is Mary Schweitzer whose discovery of organic matter in a 68-million year old dinosaur fossil catapulted her to prominence. Well-known dinosaur expert Robert Baker is not only a Christian but ordained in the Pentecostal church.

Yeah, but they're not "real" Christians, I'm sure. You know the drill.

And the pentecostals would kick her right out, if they knew her scientific accolades.

Historically there were scientists like George Washington Carver who did a lot of work on developing practical uses for peanuts and soybeans. Of course, historically almost all European scientists from the 16th through the 19th century were Christian--at least formally.

I'm not concerned with "historically". I'm talking about in the present day, not 300 years ago. I'm familiar with Francis Bacon as the father of the modern day scientific method. I'm sure he'd be real impressed with what Christians are doing to science.

With all the anti-science rhetoric in Christianity these days, I often wonder why they use things such as cars, computers, smart phones or television? Not to mention modern health care. All inventions of modern science.



Quite a few, I expect, but I've done enough research for one post.





Not mix, perhaps. But co-exist. They do have different fields of interest. Religion will never be science and science is not (or should not be) religion. But they needn't be in conflict either. It is not a problem to be a believer in a religion and also be respectful of science. Nor is it a problem to be immersed in science and also be religious.

This is possible precisely because science limits itself to what can be seen and measured and so does not impact on the heart of what religion is about.

They are eternally in conflict with each other, like light and darkness. They can never co-exist. The replies in this thread prove that, and that is only a small, small sample compared to the rabid anti-science movement within the heart of Christianity and Islam.

Arguably, science can completely circumvent religion and religious ideas, if I may play devil's advocate for a moment. We have no evidence for a "soul", a "spirit", 6000 year old creationism, a global flood, and even matters of the heart, such as things like love, kindness, empathy and so forth can all be easily explained by biochemical processes in the brain and natural selection. If taken to the extreme, science completely removes the need for religion.

Note, that's not my view, but it is a perfectly acceptable reductionistic point of view. On the other end, we have religion which attempts to circumvent the need and place of science, while hypocritically still availing itself of all of science's discoveries and amenities.
 
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sfs

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Yeah, but they're not "real" Christians, I'm sure. You know the drill.
So you recognize the fact that it's just a small subset of Christians trying to write all of the Christians who do accept science out of the faith -- and then proceed to ignore that fact. Odd.

And the pentecostals would kick her right out, if they knew her scientific accolades.
First, Robert Bakker (who is the pentecostal) is male. Second, since Bakker's scientific achievements are well known (and since it's what he does for a living), your statement is obviously false. What's the point in just making stuff up?

They are eternally in conflict with each other, like light and darkness. They can never co-exist.
Since they do co-exist, both in the society at large and in individuals, your statement is empirically false. When your beliefs lead to embrace claims that are patently false, it's time to reevaluate those beliefs.
 
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frogman2x

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That's true. It's much easier to believe we can from a pile of dirt instead.

[quote[It's also only easier to believe in evolution if you have done your research, studied the subject and examined all the evidence. Once you've done that with an open mind, believing in creation tales becomes impossible.
Let me suggest that men better qualified than you in sciennnce had done the research, studied the subject and examined all the evidence(actually there is no scieneific evidence for evolution) and still reject evolution.

>>I go with the evidence, not an ancient book written by men who thought the earth was flat.

Wonderful. Show me the scientific evidence for the first life form and how it originated. Next show me the biological evidence that allows a dog like land animal to become a whale, Next show me the genetic evidence that allows a species to evolve ino a compleltely different species.

Finally, show me the evidence that ancient men believed the wordl was flat.

I can hardly wait.

kermit
 
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frogman2x

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Our bible is filled with a great many metaphors which it is ridiculous to literalize.
Our Bible is also filled with a great many literal truths which it is ridiculous to spiritualize. In fact there is much more literal truth than figurative truth.

Most reputable theological colleges do not teach a literal understanding of the creation accounts.

I doubt that but why don't you provide the evidence that support it?

kermit
 
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frogman2x

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With all the anti-science rhetoric in Christianity these days, I often wonder why they use things such as cars, computers, smart phones or television? Not to mention modern health care. All inventions of modern science.
There is absolutely no anti-science rheoreic in Christinsiyt. There is anti-evolution in the Christianity. You confuse evlution with real science. You cannot porvide the biologial evidence for even one thing in the ToE. In fact I can scientifically prove more in the first chaper of Genesis then you can in the whole realm of evolution.


They are eternally in conflict with each other, like light and darkness. They can never co-exist. The replies in this thread prove that, and that is only a small, small sample compared to the rabid anti-science movement within the heart of Christianity and Islam. {quote]

Your hyperbole does not make your case.

>>Arguably, science can completely circumvent religion and religious ideas, if I may play devil's advocate for a moment. We have no evidence for a "soul", a "spirit", 6000 year old creationism, a global flood, and even matters of the heart, such as things like love, kindness, empathy and so forth can all be easily explained by biochemical processes in the brain and natural selection. <<

If one cannot look at a mother tending her baby and see love, they are blind. What a foolish remark. Do you love your wife and children?

Naturel selectsion is an evo buzz word that has no scientific evidence and it can not be proven. The amusing thing is that even if natural selection was true, the rabbit with the stronger legs, might survive longer, but it remains a rabbit and will produce only more rabbits and his kids having at sronges legs is not guarenteed.

You have no evidence for what he first life form was and how it developed. You have no eplnatin for allof the matter in theuniverse. So IMO, yoou need more faith, than Christisn do.

If taken to the extreme, science completely removes the need for religion.
Can science prove there is no God. If it can't, and we both know it can't, the teh Creator of the Universe will always be needed.


Note, that's not my view, but it is a perfectly acceptable reductionistic point of view. On the other end, we have religion which attempts to circumvent the need and place of science, while hypocritically still availing itself of all of science's discoveries and amenities.

Until you understand that evolution is not real science, you will never understand what religion is all about. Evoluion is the reductionistic point of view, Not Christiaity.

kermit
 
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gluadys

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Most reputable theological colleges do not teach a literal understanding of the creation accounts.

I doubt that but why don't you provide the evidence that support it?

kermit


Try this for a starter.
Open Yale Courses | Introduction to the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible)

Then you can check out other major religious studies and divinity schools across the country. This course is typical of introductory courses on the Hebrew scriptures in schools that train the majority of pastors, ministers, priests and rabbis in North America (and also globally)


btw can you please start putting the backslash in front of the word "quote" in your end-quote tags? Look at the example when you bring up a message to reply to. At the end of the post you are replying to is the word QUOTE in square brackets with a backslash in front of the Q. You don't need to use all caps, but you do need the backslash to make the quote function work correctly.
 
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Dunban

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So you recognize the fact that it's just a small subset of Christians trying to write all of the Christians who do accept science out of the faith -- and then proceed to ignore that fact. Odd.


First, Robert Bakker (who is the pentecostal) is male. Second, since Bakker's scientific achievements are well known (and since it's what he does for a living), your statement is obviously false. What's the point in just making stuff up?


Since they do co-exist, both in the society at large and in individuals, your statement is empirically false. When your beliefs lead to embrace claims that are patently false, it's time to reevaluate those beliefs.


No, because they're not "small." I don't know where you're living, but if it's anywhere in the United States, you would know that movement is anything but "small." Over 70% (I believe) of pastors in the U.S. believe in a literal creation of less than 6000 years ago.

When you start to examine what Christian culture actually is, then we'll talk.

To add one thing, if you knew anything about pentecostals, you'd know they are as Creationist as one could get. I would know, thanks. I belonged to different pentecostal churches for years. They vehemently hate all forms of evolution and would rather die than admit man came from a "monkey". Being a pile of dirt is so much better. : /

Whom do they co-exist for? Non-fanatical Christians? So a small, subset of normal people who just happen to believe in God? Where do I find these people? The majority of Christians do not fit the bill for that. If you actually looked around this forum, you would know I'm right.
 
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Dunban

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That's true. It's much easier to believe we can from a pile of dirt instead.

[quote[It's also only easier to believe in evolution if you have done your research, studied the subject and examined all the evidence. Once you've done that with an open mind, believing in creation tales becomes impossible.

Wonderful. Show me the scientific evidence for the first life form and how it originated. Next show me the biological evidence that allows a dog like land animal to become a whale, Next show me the genetic evidence that allows a species to evolve ino a compleltely different species.

Finally, show me the evidence that ancient men believed the wordl was flat.

I can hardly wait.

kermit

Sure thing. Right after you show me the evidence that human beings were created from dirt, less than 6000 years ago, despite the fact that the earth has been proven to be well, well older than that.

Also, please demonstrate how plants were created before sunlight.
 
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ChetSinger

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Since there is almost no documentation of any biblical figures or events outside of scripture itself, there is very little of it we can verify as actual history. We certainly cannot draw a line at one point of scripture and say "everything before this is not history and everything after it is not." It is much more piecemeal than that with historical narrative and non-historical narrative entwined with each other all the way through.
Actually, we can. It depends on what sources we consider authoritative.

For the New Testament we also have records confirming the actual existence of political figures such as Herod, Annas & Caiaphas, and Pontius Pilate. We do not have confirmation of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, nor of his execution.
Yet you're a Christian, so you're obviously a woman of faith.

Being unable to document that a person actually existed does not, in and of itself imply that they didn't. Without implying that everyone named from Genesis 12 on was an actual individual in history, I would set Abraham as the first plausible historic figure in scripture.
Thanks for your thoughts on that. I'm going to suggest that the author of Hebrews 11 believed that the earlier figures of Abel, Enoch, and Noah were also actual individuals because they are spoken of no differently than Abraham and later individuals. For example: "And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.".

Genealogies don't really help much because they didn't function in ancient times as they do now. Often genealogies included eponymous ancestors (i.e. it was inferred from the existence of a people such as the Moabites or Canaanites that they had an ancestor named Moab or Canaan. The inferred ancestor was given his name from the people rather than the people taking their name from the ancestor.) These "ancestors" were listed in genealogies in exactly the same way as known ancestors. We see an example in Genesis 10 where at one point, instead of giving the name of a person, the names of nationalities are listed.
I've heard differently, that the Table of Nations was believed to contain the names of the first men to successfully settle a particular geographic area after the dispersion. Josephus speaks at length about this in chapter 6 of Antiquities of the Jews, adding a wealth of relevant and related commentary. It's pretty apparent that Josephus believes he's commenting on actual events.

I'm going to assume that, being a Christian, you believe in the miracles of Christ such as walking on water, healing the sick with words, and raising himself from the dead. So if you believe in supernatural events in the NT without extra-Biblical support, why is it difficult to believe in supernatural events in the OT without extra-Biblical support? Wasn't God as supernatural back then?
 
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gluadys

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Actually, we can. It depends on what sources we consider authoritative.


Yet you're a Christian, so you're obviously a woman of faith.

Yep.


Thanks for your thoughts on that. I'm going to suggest that the author of Hebrews 11 believed that the earlier figures of Abel, Enoch, and Noah were also actual individuals because they are spoken of no differently than Abraham and later individuals.

I expect you are quite right about the beliefs of the author of Hebrews. That doesn't mean he or she had any valid documentation of their existence. And since the only stories preserved about them are clearly legendary and all have parallels in the legends of other nations in the ANE culture, there is virtually nothing to connect them with history. We should read these stories, as Peter says, because they are examples to us.


I've heard differently, that the Table of Nations was believed to contain the names of the first men to successfully settle a particular geographic area after the dispersion.

Again, it is a belief. I can respect that.
But the uninformed beliefs of ancient peoples is no firm guide to what is and is not history.


Josephus speaks at length about this in chapter 6 of Antiquities of the Jews, adding a wealth of relevant and related commentary. It's pretty apparent that Josephus believes he's commenting on actual events.

Like many ancient writers Josephus is a mixed bag of real and not so real history. To take another example, Clement, a well respected leader in the first-century church whose letters were seriously considered for inclusion in the New Testament wrote in one of them about the phoenix as if it were a real bird. I suppose if that letter had made it into the New Testament, literalists would be insisting that such a bird really does exist.

I'm going to assume that, being a Christian, you believe in the miracles of Christ such as walking on water, healing the sick with words, and raising himself from the dead. So if you believe in supernatural events in the NT without extra-Biblical support, why is it difficult to believe in supernatural events in the OT without extra-Biblical support?

It isn't difficult. I accept OT miracles such as Elisha making an ax head float and raising a dead child back to life, of Elijah calling fire from heaven and of course, the plagues of Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, and later of the Jordan and the healing of Naaman and so forth, just as I do the miracles of the NT.

What I don't accept is inventing miracles not testified to in scripture on an ad hoc basis to bolster one's beliefs. That is just atrocious hermeneutical practice.


Wasn't God as supernatural back then?

Of course. And wasn't God also operating in the ordinary course of nature back then?

What does either question have to do with the genre of biblical texts?



I hope Calminian is reading this. This is the pattern I was talking about. First challenge from a creationist is almost always "don't you believe in miracles"?

Miracles is not the issue here. The nature of the biblical texts is the issue.
 
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Papias

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Dunban wrote:
Over 70% (I believe) of pastors in the U.S. believe in a literal creation of less than 6000 years ago.

A clear claim to test. Everyone please remember that the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.

In this case, I did your work for you (it was just a simple google search). It turns out that a Barna poll this year found that 54% of protestant pastors were creationists. Protestants make up around half of American Christianity, and as several Popes have voiced support for evolution (including UCA), it's probably safe to guess that a strong majory of Catholic priests do (after all, evolution is taught in Catholic schools).

So adding that in, it looks like around 35-45% of Christian clergy in the US are creationist. Your "over 70%" might be correct in some areas, like the South, however.

For Christians as a whole in the US, that's easy to check. Many polls have shown around 45% support for creationism in the US, with ~75% (and dropping) saying they are Christian. Assuming that nearly all of those creationists are Christian (pretty safe, I think), that makes 45/75 = 60% of Christians are creationist (a majority, but not a landslide).

I would guess that the % Christians as creationists will go up, not because the % creationist is going up, but because the % Christian is going down. Just a guess though.

Papias

clergy_views_chart.jpg


http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/clergy_views_chart.jpg
 
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Dunban

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Dunban wrote:


A clear claim to test. Everyone please remember that the burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.

In this case, I did your work for you (it was just a simple google search). It turns out that a Barna poll this year found that 54% of protestant pastors were creationists. Protestants make up around half of American Christianity, and as several Popes have voiced support for evolution (including UCA), it's probably safe to guess that a strong majory of Catholic priests do (after all, evolution is taught in Catholic schools).

So adding that in, it looks like around 35-45% of Christian clergy in the US are creationist. Your "over 70%" might be correct in some areas, like the South, however.

For Christians as a whole in the US, that's easy to check. Many polls have shown around 45% support for creationism in the US, with ~75% (and dropping) saying they are Christian. Assuming that nearly all of those creationists are Christian (pretty safe, I think), that makes 45/75 = 60% of Christians are creationist (a majority, but not a landslide).

I would guess that the % Christians as creationists will go up, not because the % creationist is going up, but because the % Christian is going down. Just a guess though.

Papias

clergy_views_chart.jpg


http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/clergy_views_chart.jpg

Since when has "proof" ever been required in religion? lol :D

Anyway, here's some stats for you:

Poll: Pastors Oppose Evolution, Split on Earth's Age

3564c4a3-12fc-42d3-8d5d-075f2d8f8a47.jpg


Poll: Many Protestant Pastors Lean Toward Young Earth Creation

Christianity's all about that Creationism. It's a shame your Jewish cousins don't agree with you.
 
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Papias

Listening to TW4
Dec 22, 2005
3,967
988
59
✟64,806.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Please check those sources. You'll notice one is by a nationally recognized, professional polling organization (Barna), and the other is by a fundamentalist propaganda group.

It would not be logical for us to reject the fake "research" by fundamentalist groups like Answers in Genesis or the Institute for Creation research, and then swallow fake "research" by a fundamentalist group like "Lifeways".

That's why a reasonable person will take the data from professional polling groups like Gallup, Barna, etc.

Papias
 
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D

Dunban

Guest
Please check those sources. You'll notice one is by a nationally recognized, professional polling organization (Barna), and the other is by a fundamentalist propaganda group.

It would not be logical for us to reject the fake "research" by fundamentalist groups like Answers in Genesis or the Institute for Creation research, and then swallow fake "research" by a fundamentalist group like "Lifeways".

That's why a reasonable person will take the data from professional polling groups like Gallup, Barna, etc.

Papias

So all Christian groups, except Barna or whatever, is untrustworthy? Why? They take the bible more seriously than you or I.
 
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