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Evolution vs Creationism

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Assyrian

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You must agree that evolution is incomprehensible without the death of successive generations. Lets just agree on that baseline. The ability to imagine an evolutionary process without death is not pertinent.
Sure it is. The post being answered made two mistakes, one was thinking evolution requires death (bacteria certainly don't need death to evolve.) The other was thinking that Romans 5 says there was no death before the fall. Romans 5 talks a death that spreads to humans because they all sin, probably spiritual death at that. This is not describing animal death. Not unless animal can sin.

Evolutionary theory is founded on millions and millions of years of dying.
The theory of Evolution is founded on the similarities and differences Darwin found between species. What you are talking about there is the history of life on earth, which includes on millions and millions of years of dying. Its not living dinosaurs we find fossilised in 100 million year old rock.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Why is a God necessary?

This is Origins Theology. If you're not going to discuss theology, stick to the science and take stuff like this to Creationism and Evolution or General Apologetics.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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This is Origins Theology. If you're not going to discuss theology, stick to the science and take stuff like this to Creationism and Evolution or General Apologetics.
Surely the question "Why must there have been a god?" is theology? Indeed, is it not one of the biggest theological questions?
 
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busterdog

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This entire section is under the subheading of Christian Theology. This forum was meant to discuss origins within the framework of Christian theology. US is correct - take the atheistic speculation elsewhere.

Thank you.

I would assume that atheistic fellowship posts are still welcome here?

I am not sure whether the rules are clear on this, but I have a hard time accepting that an overtly satanic or pagan avatar can be part of a fellowship post.

If I encountered Wiccan Child on the street, I would hopefully be courteous and deal kindly. If he were to be wearing that symbol walking into my Church or home, I would ask him to remove it first. It is inherently offensive and is not compatible with certain types of fellowship. If asked to accept the reasonableness of concepts of things his signature, I would still respond with a firm rejection of this as both unreasonable, grave error and an offense to the One true God. " I who stand in the darkness of light; I am He whom you have called Death. I am the Consort and Mate of Her we adore, call forth to me. - The God"
 
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busterdog

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... says the guy with a monkey making out with a man for a signature photo.

Are you kidding around here?

Evolution v. creationism is the subject of this forum. How is being critical of evolution at all comparable to being overtly opposed to Nicene theology?

Besides, its not a monkey, its a doctor, and a very evolved doctor at that. Dr. Zira and "Bright Eyes" -- and all strictly platonic.
 
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Assyrian

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Besides, its not a monkey, its a doctor,
Don't confuse species with profession.
I would never say you are not a human being, you're a lawyer. :)

Anyway she's not a monkey, she's a chimp.

and a very evolved doctor at that. Dr. Zira and "Bright Eyes" -- and all strictly platonic.
Yet you caption their topless smooch as 'Strangelove'?

If I encountered Wiccan Child on the street, I would hopefully be courteous and deal kindly. If he were to be wearing that symbol walking into my Church or home, I would ask him to remove it first. It is inherently offensive and is not compatible with certain types of fellowship.
How would your church feel if you peeled off you shirt and started snogging a chimp during fellowship?
 
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Senachwine

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Melethiel seems the one with the clearest perspective. Refresh your memories by clicking to the last page. And remember me.
Evolution, I repeat, is only possible as Theistic Evolution. The Order established by the Creator is the rule of the Ages. Evolution may be true, but only within said Order. Random happenstance resulting in things as they are, now, and likely before in preceeding Ages on our planet, as the Evolutionist purists would have it? THAT DEFIES SOUND LOGIC! And for such random happenstance to be the rule of the Ages- there we find the Atheists. Said happenstance is beyond comprehension as being logical. Take a step back and try to see the whole picture- then you will comprehend.
This is a Theistic forum, with discussion pertaining to the ORIGINS, as Melethiel perceives, correctly.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Thank you.

I would assume that atheistic fellowship posts are still welcome here?
It could be argued that the question "Why is God necessary?" is one asked by someone who is curious about the Christian faith (i.e., 'atheist fellowship'). Is it not your duty to answer it, instead of dismissing it as off-topic?

I am not sure whether the rules are clear on this, but I have a hard time accepting that an overtly satanic or pagan avatar can be part of a fellowship post.
I take this as a stab at me. I have been reported for my avatar before, and the mods have always ruled in my favour: it is a symbol of my (non-Satanic) faith, nothing more. Would you be as prejudice against someone with the Ohm as their avatar, or the Arabic calligraphy of Allah?

If I encountered Wiccan Child on the street, I would hopefully be courteous and deal kindly. If he were to be wearing that symbol walking into my Church or home, I would ask him to remove it first.
I would comply, but only to expedite my business. There is a difference between following religious protocol, and mere pragmatism. But I digress.

It is inherently offensive and is not compatible with certain types of fellowship. If asked to accept the reasonableness of concepts of things his signature, I would still respond with a firm rejection of this as both unreasonable, grave error and an offense to the One true God. " I who stand in the darkness of light; I am He whom you have called Death. I am the Consort and Mate of Her we adore, call forth to me. - The God"
Since I have never tried to pass as a Christian, I fail to see the problem. I am here to discuss the issues at hand; if you wish to discuss my religion, or my place on this forum, we can do it via PM or some other suitable medium. This thread is not, I think, the place to discuss it.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Melethiel seems the one with the clearest perspective. Refresh your memories by clicking to the last page. And remember me.
Evolution, I repeat, is only possible as Theistic Evolution. The Order established by the Creator is the rule of the Ages. Evolution may be true, but only within said Order.
And what 'Order' would that be?

Random happenstance resulting in things as they are, now, and likely before in preceeding Ages on our planet, as the Evolutionist purists would have it? THAT DEFIES SOUND LOGIC!
Indeed: we do not propose things just happened to fall into place. Ever heard of natural selection?
 
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Assyrian

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If I encountered Wiccan Child on the street, I would hopefully be courteous and deal kindly. If he were to be wearing that symbol walking into my Church or home, I would ask him to remove it first. It is inherently offensive and is not compatible with certain types of fellowship.
Assyrian said:
How would your church feel if you peeled off you shirt and started snogging a chimp during fellowship?
Interesting hypothetical. Hadn't really thought about it. Probably because it isn't pertinent.
Shouldn't you have considered this before you condemned Wiccan Child with your impertinent accusations?
 
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shernren

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Sigh.

As I've noted before, fellowship is by definition and necessity mutual. Therefore the intent to break fellowship is not strictly necessary for an action to actually break fellowship. To use an old and contentious example, when a TE posts a factual reply in a Creationist forum, that action breaks fellowship as perceived by creationists. It doesn't matter that the TE would gladly accept criticism from both his own and the other side (criticism reasonably grounded, of course) as something necessary and therefore not detrimental to fellowship, and furthermore that since the correction is objectively factual there is no harm done to anyone's character or beliefs. The TE does not need to want to break fellowship to actually break fellowship.

Let's assume that busterdog's signature picture was not actually posted with the intent to hurt relations with evolutionists. Let's assume that his picture of a topless man kissing a chimpanzee (captioned with references to "Strangelove" and "lov[ing] evolution") was not actually intended to offend evolutionists of all stripes and egg the younger and brasher ones into trying to educate an ignorantly immobile caricaturist of evolution. What other intent could such a picture and caption have? I can't possibly imagine, but maybe I have a bad imagination. Maybe, for all we know, God gave busterdog the URL to this picture in a dream and told him that unless he put this up as his signature picture his nephew would become the antichrist. I can't know. It doesn't matter.

The fact, busterdog, is that I will soon stop caring about the possibility of there being any good motive behind your belligerence. I'm glad that my wonky connection has forced me to be less active here, so that I wasn't the first one on this thread to oppose your silly pharisaic protests, and I can credibly say I'm not the only person offended by your picture. There are a thousand more intelligent anti-evolutionary cartoons on the Internet; why one which tastelessly borders on bestiality? (Again, I'm not the only one who feels this way.) Even if you didn't intend to offend evolutionists (highly improbable), you still do, and with an act inherently anti-Christian.

Strike two. I know where the "Report" button is; I hope I won't have to use it.

... in any case. I'm disappointed that the "Why is a God needed?" question was quickly shunted as being GA-esque. It really isn't, for those familiar with the cr-evo discussion: within Christian circles creationists think it's an important objection against evolution. For example, here is an AiG article (http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i4/horse_tractor.asp) whose premise is basically that since evolution makes God unneeded, it can't be true. So this is a good question for both evolutionists and creationists - for evolutionists, what place God has in evolution; for creationists, what place God has in, oh, all the rest of the science which they accept mindlessly.

But within the context, it was said after:

But, then we know that secretly all evolutionists don't put much stock in random mutation or natural selection. They already know it needs a God to work.

He isn't really referring to theistic evolution and why evolutionists still believe in God - nope, he's still taking his misinformed potshots at "self-organization" etc., thinking that when evolutionists refer to self-organization they are really referring to God by a different name. Of course, it has been demonstrated that he has little to no understanding of self-organization whatsoever. Hardly a surprise ....
 
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Assyrian

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shernren said:
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busterdog

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Shouldn't you have considered this before you condemned Wiccan Child with your impertinent accusations?

Assyrian, there is little truth in what you post here in this thread. When you fail to show a desire for truth, what exactly are those to do in response? More charitably, maybe you don't understand what you are writing. Frankly, I dont think you care as long as you get a notch in your holster.

I did not "condemn Wiccan Child". I did condemn his signature and his avatar. He has a whole life that the Lord only will judge. Much of it is complete, much of it is yet to come. I do not presume to know what is to come. Nor am I judging his ethics, his morals, his legal standing, his various covenants with those he works for or is in relationship with. For the future, he certainly has my blessing, that he receive the love of the Lords guidance.
 
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busterdog

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It could be argued that the question "Why is God necessary?" is one asked by someone who is curious about the Christian faith (i.e., 'atheist fellowship'). Is it not your duty to answer it, instead of dismissing it as off-topic?
To me it is like asking whether air is necessary. Personally, it is pretty hard for me to respond. I am certainly limited in responding as a man dependent upon air. But, if air were the issue, how exactly would we figure out whether such a discussion is even worth having. Either I am way too limited in my dependence upon air or you are way too open to discuss entirely imaginary things as if they are real. I am not trying to be cute. Rather, I think there is a very real logical problem in even having the discussion. The discussion can be had, but arguably we involved in a completely imaginary exercise, if not a blasphemous exercise.

I take this as a stab at me. I have been reported for my avatar before, and the mods have always ruled in my favour: it is a symbol of my (non-Satanic) faith, nothing more. Would you be as prejudice against someone with the Ohm as their avatar, or the Arabic calligraphy of Allah?
There are some things in this world that are inherently in opposition one to another. If pointing that out is "stabbing", then "stabbing" is unavoidable. Some would call it kindness. You get to call it what you wish. Allah is satan. Ohm is his word. The "prophets" of Allah have themselves made very clear, as I have said, that there are articles of faith inherently in opposition one to another. Taking them at THEIR word, the "adversary" (this is what "satan" means) of Jesus Christ is Allah.

The only way to refute the opposition of your religious symbols to the God of my faith is to deny that what the most sacred utterances of both faiths have to say about the matter. Otherwise, we have a notion that is quite unpopular in modern thinking, which is the inherent opposition of some sacred things.


Since I have never tried to pass as a Christian, I fail to see the problem. I am here to discuss the issues at hand; if you wish to discuss my religion, or my place on this forum, we can do it via PM or some other suitable medium. This thread is not, I think, the place to discuss it.
One question is whether this forum and this particular OT area holds itself out as Christian. Those who own it can define it however they wish. I have no say. I can only state my preference. And, look, this is a chatroom, not an inquisition. Its not like I have any real power over you or anyone else here. How big of an offense could that possibly represent?

The only problem I have in discussing the matter is 1. when we simply cant deal in mutuality with fact; and 2. when discussion necessarily requires that one compromise one's dedication to the principles of the forum. On the latter point, if this forum is dedicated to the Christian God, it is not the place to begin discussion with a challenge to the foundation of that truth. One can still be a pagan and enter another person's place of worship humbly. Honestly, I dont think your avatar represents the latter. It may presume a certainly tolerance of many faiths (though to some satanists it is the essence of satanism), the equivalence as between various gods that it suggests is nothing but a very direct attack upon the most essential commandments of the one true creator God.

This is an INTRACTIBLE dispute. Again, inherent opposition.

Though, I would suggest that the intractible nature of of this dispute is the beginning of a way to understand why Jesus Christ is the only son of the true God and of one being with Him.

Please also note: all of the above takes time to say without calling names. That is a measure of kindness. Kindness is not the same thing as simply agreeing that you could be right about Allah. While you may not be confused about that distinction, many people are. Again, trying to gloss over an inherent conflict is not kindness. Taking the time and saying things nicely and carefully is kindness.
 
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Tinker Grey

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At least since 7/7/7, and I think perhaps longer, this forum has held that posts from non-christians are acceptable as long as they don't challenge the underlying assumptions -- that is, God exists.

Kind of like TEs can post in the Creationism sub-forum as long as they don't challenge the underlying assumption -- basically, however God did it, he didn't do it via evolution.

The question "Why is God necessary?" would provide much interesting philosophical discussion in this forum -- such as "where on the scale of deism to micromanagement does your conception of God fall". But, I have to agree that this topic would too easily become a challenge to the fundamental assumptions of this forum.
 
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