Evolution vs. Creationism

[NeoTrio]

"Careful" is not one of my middle names.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

1) I do have a verse in mind,

Then post, don't baitingly harass playing little mind games.

I also think it's important to get people to learn how to backup what they say,

At best, that's tantamount to force feeding and you're not going to teach anyone with that approach; antagonization and opposition is the best you're ever going to see. There are other ways, far better ways. The question really, i suppose, boils down to, are you trying to win an argument for yourself or win a soul to Christ?

2) I have no problem debating about the bible on a christian board, but you need to remember I am not debating the bible I am debating Your interpretation of the bible.

Debating (aka arguing) Scripture might work for the young or the new or unsure, and it's a favored approach for the Bible's antagonists; however, for the more spiritually mature for whom it is but an exchange of firmly rooted ideas debating is never an option, in fact, it is unlikely such is even Scriptural.

No one was ever won to Christ by winning an argument. As the old saying goes, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Perhaps your interpretation is up for argue and debate. Not mine.

If yours is open for debate then perhaps the roots of yours are not yet deep enough and are in need of more spiritual watering. The question is seldom what one believes but, more often, do they know why they believe what they believe? Most simply don't have any idea and, instead, fight to prove that what they do not know is so. And the defense of evolution (to the detriment and in opposition of Scripture) is just such a case.

3) Asking you to support your claims isn't baiting

There is a fine line between badgering and harassment and a short hop from there to stalking. Careful how you push, common sense would dictate when enough is enough and when you've crossed the line it is too late; as they say, forewarned is forearmed.

4) Evolution is not humanism, not all christians are creationists.

You belie your educational youth and understanding of the historic roots of the subject which are most definitely humanistic and which spring from the first anti-God religion established on earth and referred to in Scripture as the mother of harlots and is still to this day the mother of ALL religions.

Revelation 17:5, "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."

o&btwfwiw, no, Christianity is not a religion for religion is the search for God while Christianity is the relationship with the living God.

4) Carefull how you word things

Then I'll let The Word speak on that
2 Corinthians 6:14bc "...for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

2 Thessalonians 2:11, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

5)I really doubt it is against board rules to ask people to back up their claims,

Backing up claims is not the issue, doggedly pushing for something you already know just to make a point after numerous attempts of nicely being asked to desist is, however, harassment and thus one can only assume it is not with the purist of honorable of intentions.

Since you have something to say and, as you say, you already have a verse in mind, then why not just bring it out?[\quote]

Arguing the tenets of Christianity is never an option; arguing the diluting of the Scriptures with heresies is an act of defending The Gospel.

Despite wherein any, if any, disagreement may lie, your tone, nonetheless, is commendable. Thank you.

 

[Tomk80]

Pilgrim 33, may I say that I think your last post is quite strange. If you state something theological it seems fair to me that you give some biblical arguments for this. Your saying so doesn't make it so. Why don't you want to give these arguments. It makes me think that you don't have them.

 

[Ron21647]

And yet no one can seem to show me where it says satan is a fallen angel. Hmmm.

"anti-Bible canned rhetoric" I didn't know debating against you was debating against the bible.

Again, can you support your claim that the bible says satan is a fallen angel, or will you dodge it again? What is so hard with posting the verse?

This all seems oddly familiar, why is it that many creationists are so willing to make claims but so unwilling to back them up. It's what has made my post count so high, I bet half of my posts are repeated asking for someone to back something up.

Pilgrim33, I'd like to see the answer to this myself. I'm still trying to figure out whether it is prophecy or history. Keep in mind the first few chapters of Job in your interpretation.

Ron

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Pilgrim33, I'd like to see the answer to this myself. I'm still trying to figure out whether it is prophecy or history. Keep in mind the first few chapters of Job in your interpretation.

Ron

How is being stripped of position (authority) and splendor different from one who is fired from government service losing income and retirement benefits for they are both still, by their very continued existence, residents of their respective domains (spirit world/earth) lacking previous stature. While they may no longer have the access to the power inherent in their previously delegated post of authority for ability's sake, yet, they still retain the knowledge gained from their past posts and possess the capability to act on their own.

If no evil can come before God then no unsaved could be presented for judgment. In light of omnipresence physical thought constraints involving relative closeness inherent in 'presentment' is not of necessity an imperative any more than prayer demands us to be directly before The Throne of God and, yet, we are regarded as though we are "in His presence". Regardless of where we are or where He is when De Man raps we gonna listen down.

 

[Tomk80]

How is being stripped of position (authority) and splendor different from one who is fired from government service losing income and retirement benefits for they are both still, by their very continued existence, residents of their respective domains (spirit world/earth) lacking previous stature. While they may no longer have the access to the power inherent in their previously delegated post of authority for ability's sake, yet, they still retain the knowledge gained from their past posts and possess the capability to act on their own.

If no evil can come before God then no unsaved could be presented for judgment. In light of omnipresence physical thought constraints involving relative closeness inherent in 'presentment' is not of necessity an imperative any more than prayer demands us to be directly before The Throne of God and, yet, we are regarded as though we are "in His presence". Regardless of where we are or where He is when De Man raps we gonna listen down.

And again you have provided no biblical support for your statement that the devil is a fallen angel.

Furthermore, to me the beginning of Job seems to paint a different picture for me. It makes it seem as though the devil is actually still in God's service, as a judicator, a tempter. As someone who will put man to the test with God's agreement. Someone who tries to show that people do not live up to God's standard.

 

[Arikay]

Well, we are getting closer, he quoted the bible, yet it wasn't the verses that support his statements.
Anyone else notice that whenever creationists quote the "beware of lies" verses it is always at other people, but they never seem to think that it could be talking to them as well?

In Job, "satan" is still in God's service and is actually trusted by God with Jobs life. Of course, that is because the "satan" in Job follows the definition of the Hebrew word and is someone who opposes God, and so God uses him as a prosecutor against Job.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

It makes it seem as though the devil is actually still in God's service, as a judicator...

Following "It makes it seem as though" is the broken crutch that relies upon human reason and not The Word of God without which it is impossible to come to God.

Question marks in icons means the person doesn't know what they believe, that they're still formulating opinions and beliefs, that they haven't yet made a choice, that they just haven't made a no-turning-back committment, correct? All men are given a lifetime to make that committment; the big question here is, how long is a lifetime for you? Is it fifty years from now or tonight?

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Well, we are getting closer, he

It's not polite to talk about someone in the third person when that person is present."-John Travolta in Michael

quoted the bible, yet it wasn't the verses that support his statements.

So it's now gone from a verse to verses; you must surely feel you know much on the subject; why are you not sharing this with us, or have you not been given leave to share secret mysteries?

In Job, "satan" is still in God's service and is actually trusted by God with Jobs life

Oh, my; ye of little faith...and understanding.

"Very quickly will they fight, they fight to prove that what they do not know is so!"-The King & I

 

[Tomk80]

Following "It makes it seem as though" is the broken crutch that relies upon human reason and not The Word of God without which it is impossible to come to God.

Question marks in icons means the person doesn't know what they believe, that they're still formulating opinions and beliefs, that they haven't yet made a choice, that they just haven't made a no-turning-back committment, correct? All men are given a lifetime to make that committment; the big question here is, how long is a lifetime for you? Is it fifty years from now or tonight?

Yes, I am still forming my opinions on those verses. How is this a bad thing? I'm still considering both options, although the one I opined seems more consistent with reading the old testament. Now, if you have any valid arguments against what I said, present it. Convince me that my current interpretation is wrong. You adhoms do not convince me of anything, except that you might not have a good understanding of what you are talking about. So, arguments please, if possible backed up with scripture. If your postion is true, that shouldn't be too hard, should it?

 

[Arikay]

Yes it has changed because I told you before that I didn't want to put words in your mouth, so I do not know if it is one or more verses. All you seem to be able to do is to complain that I'm asking you to back up your statement.

You say I don't understand, yet don't show me how I don't understand, you just throw me another one of those great bible quotes that the user never thinks could actually be talking about themselves.
Lets ask the bible about job,
"Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."
So, yes, "satan" was part of God's angels.
"Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life. "
And here we see that God trusts "satan" enough to give Job to him.
Satan then tests Jobs faith because God thinks Job is a good follower and satan disagrees (making him an opposer of God and thus recieving the title of satan).

Well, we are getting closer, he

It's not polite to talk about someone in the third person when that person is present."-John Travolta in Michael

quoted the bible, yet it wasn't the verses that support his statements.

So it's now gone from a verse to verses; you must surely feel you know much on the subject; why are you not sharing this with us, or have you not been given leave to share secret mysteries?

In Job, "satan" is still in God's service and is actually trusted by God with Jobs life

Oh, my; ye of little faith...and understanding.

"Very quickly will they fight, they fight to prove that what they do not know is so!"-The King & I

 

[Tomk80]

"Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life. "

Indeed, this verse implies that Satan takes his orders from God before acting.

 

[Ron21647]

Well, we are getting closer, he

It's not polite to talk about someone in the third person when that person is present."-John Travolta in Michael

quoted the bible, yet it wasn't the verses that support his statements.

So it's now gone from a verse to verses; you must surely feel you know much on the subject; why are you not sharing this with us, or have you not been given leave to share secret mysteries?

In Job, "satan" is still in God's service and is actually trusted by God with Jobs life

Oh, my; ye of little faith...and understanding.

"Very quickly will they fight, they fight to prove that what they do not know is so!"-The King & I

Well, to quote the main character in Heinlein's "Job: A Comedy of Justice",

"is it that you don't know, or that you just don't want to tell us?"

I've come to expect non-answers from YEC people on scientific questions, but this is a theological question with the request for a scripture quote(s) to back it up.

<snip>

Ron

 

[Pilgrim 33]

I'm asking you to back up your statement.

And, instead of stating your case and presenting your information, you keep badgering and harassing. The surest way to get a stonewall. And rightly so.

You say I don't understand, yet don't show me how I don't understand,

I'm trying, but why bother if the response is going to be objected to and ridiculed based upon your own pre-conceived, and limited, understanding? Either you are sincere or you're not and you're not displaying much sincerity, just a desire to win an argument. Something I do not care to participate in. You need to change tactics, you need to change approach, you need to put God's will above your own desires and wannabes. Until then the Bible will never be more than a bunch of pages with words on it; until then it will never be the living breathing Word of God speaking to you.

"Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God

The angels, Adam, Jesus Christ come in the flesh, believers in Christ--those are referred to as "sons of God" because He created them and for no other reason.

came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."
So, yes, "satan" was part of God's angels.

Please show respect for dignities and capitalize where grammar and respect are required.

God's angels are those in His will; Satan and his followers are not, and they were cast out because of it; they are no longer "God's angels".

"Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life. "
And here we see that God trusts "satan" enough to give Job to him.

Trust is not possible if one is not in God's will; all we see here is God saving Job's life; iaw, really not much different than Satan attacking a believer today and God saving them through His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

Well, to quote the main character in Heinlein's "Job: A Comedy of Justice",

Yes, Heinlein seems to have a long standing track record of plagiarizing (borrowing?) from the Bible to his financial gain; I don't recall anymore, but it seems Stanger in a Strange Land may have been the first.

Exodus 2:22, "And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land."

 

[Arikay]

How can I present my case if I do not know exactly what I am presenting my case against? Why should I present my case at all if you can't support your claims.
It's like asking a defence attorney to defend his client against a prosecution that says he is a murderer but has no evidence.

What did I not capitalize right? And is attacking my grammer the only thing you can do?

Read Job 2:6 again, it says, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand." The Lord didn't save Job, he handed him to satan, requesting only that satan spare his life. To hand Job over to satan, God must trust Satan.

I'm asking you to back up your statement.

And, instead of stating your case and presenting your information, you keep badgering and harassing. The surest way to get a stonewall. And rightly so.

You say I don't understand, yet don't show me how I don't understand,

I'm trying, but why bother if the response is going to be objected to and ridiculed based upon your own pre-conceived, and limited, understanding? Either you are sincere or you're not and you're not displaying much sincerity, just a desire to win an argument. Something I do not care to participate in. You need to change tactics, you need to change approach, you need to put God's will above your own desires and wannabes.

"Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God

The angels, Adam, Jesus Christ come in the flesh, believers in Christ--those are referred to as "sons of God" because He created them and for no other reason.

came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."
So, yes, "satan" was part of God's angels.

Please show respect for dignities and capitalize where grammar and respect are required.

God's angels are those in His will; Satan and his followers are not, and they were cast out because of it; they are no longer "God's angels".

"Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life. "
And here we see that God trusts "satan" enough to give Job to him.

Trust is not possible if one is not in God's will; all we see here is God saving Job's life; iaw, really not much different than Satan attacking a believer today and God saving them through His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Tomk80]

I'm asking you to back up your statement.

And, instead of stating your case and presenting your information, you keep badgering and harassing. The surest way to get a stonewall. And rightly so.

You say I don't understand, yet don't show me how I don't understand,

I'm trying, but why bother if the response is going to be objected to and ridiculed based upon your own pre-conceived, and limited, understanding? Either you are sincere or you're not and you're not displaying much sincerity, just a desire to win an argument. Something I do not care to participate in. You need to change tactics, you need to change approach, you need to put God's will above your own desires and wannabes.

You don't seem to be trying to me. You just won't back up the claims you've made, will you? You claimed that Satan was an angel cast out of Heaven. We asked you for scriptural evidence. We don't have to supply this, as we didn't make the claim. You did, so you supply the evidence.

"Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God

The angels, Adam, Jesus Christ come in the flesh, believers in Christ--those are referred to as "sons of God" because He created them and for no other reason.

came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

So, yes, "satan" was part of God's angels.

Please show respect for dignities and capitalize where grammar and respect are required.

God's angels are those in His will; Satan and his followers are not, and they were cast out because of it; they are no longer "God's angels".

Than why is Satan among God's angels in Job?

"Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand; but save his life. "

And here we see that God trusts "satan" enough to give Job to him.

Trust is not possible if one is not in God's will; all we see here is God saving Job's life; iaw, really not much different than Satan attacking a believer today and God saving them through His Son, Jesus Christ.

Then why does God give Job in the hand of Satan, in stead of protecting him and his family? And even more, in Job 1:10-11 there is clearly a challenge going on, where God praises Job as a good, faithful servant, but Satan, as 'opposer' challenges this. This all implies that Satan has not been cast out of heaven and that he has a task.

 

[Pilgrim 33]

How can I present my case

Just spit it out.

if I do not know exactly what I am presenting my case against?

You are neither a prosecutor or defense attorney; the objective is likemindedness in Christ Jesus.

Why should I present my case at all if you can't support your claims.
It's like asking a defence attorney to defend his client against a prosecution that says he is a murderer but has no evidence.

What did I not capitalize right? And is attacking my grammer the only thing you can do?

Please go back and re-read your post;

Jude 1:8-10, "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."

Read Job 2:6 again, it says, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand."

The Lord didn't save Job, he handed him to satan, requesting only that satan spare his life. To hand Job over to satan, God must trust Satan

What the Scriptures say above and what you say are two completely different things. One is fact you have not yet come to fully realize; the other is your verbosely error ridden extrapolated opinion.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

And again you have provided no biblical support for your statement that the devil is a fallen angel.

Eh? I think that is a pretty easy connection to make.

Courtesy of Biblegateway.com and studylight.org

Mt 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out , that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan Satanas adversary
Devil Diabolos devil,false accuser, slanderer
angel Aggelos Angel, messenger

Mark 3:22-23

Luke 11:14-19 Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed. 15But some of them said, “By Beelzebub,[g] the prince of demons, he is driving out demons.” 16Others tested him by asking for a sign from heaven.

17Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. 18If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. 19Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out?

demon Daimonion diety, spirit, evil spirit
Beelzeboul Lord of the house

The word in Job is transliterated as Satan, adversary, one who opposes, supernatural adversary.

Please note that the words Devil and Satan and Demon are not necessarily names, but rather descriptive terms.

Furthermore, to me the beginning of Job seems to paint a different picture for me. It makes it seem as though the devil is actually still in God's service, as a judicator, a tempter. As someone who will put man to the test with God's agreement. Someone who tries to show that people do not live up to God's standard.

In Job he is refered to as Satan, not the Devil.
'Is', or 'Was' still in God's service?
Which leaves timing up in the air...
Rev. 12 ties Satan (the dragon) to the serpent in Genesis. Without Revelation there doesn't seem to be much of a case for that conection, with Revelation it seems hard to avoid the connection.

 

[Arikay]

How so?
Show me exactly how I have interpreted Job wrong.

How can I argue against a claim when it hasn't been backed up?

What the Scriptures say above and what you say are two completely different things. One is fact you have not yet come to fully realize; the other is your verbosely extrapolated opinion.