Evolution vs. Creationism

[DJ_Ghost]

Isn't that what evolution is supposed to do?

No, it isn't.

If you are going to argue about a subject would it not be a good idea to know what the subject is actualy about?

Ghost

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Question:
How could anyone, based on the previous three posts, claim to be a Christian AND a proponent of humanism &/or evolution? Obviously, they are diametrically opposed.

A much more interesting question is;

If Pilgrim 33s argument that evolution and humanism are inextricably linked why is it the official position of the Pope and the catholic church that evolutionary theory is compatible with Christianity and describes the method by which the Lord God created the current biodiversity of life?

Again I ask you, are you making the claim that the Roman Catholic Church* is part of your supposed Humanist conspiracy?

Or is just possible that you are wrong when you claim that evolution and humanism are necessarily linked?

Ghost

* And I could just as easily have used the Anglican church here.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Apparently there is no one present that is either able or willing to challenge the first hand evidences of evolution's parent, humanism,

Arikay did exactly that, why are you ignoring him? The rest of us are not interested in spending time typing a refutation that you will ignore by pretend ing it wasn’t posted. Please address Arikays refutation of your points.

Ghost

 

[Dark_Lite]

A much more interesting question is;

If Pilgrim 33s argument that evolution and humanism are inextricably linked why is it the official position of the Pope and the catholic church that evolutionary theory is compatible with Christianity and describes the method by which the Lord God created the current biodiversity of life?

Again I ask you, are you making the claim that the Roman Catholic Church* is part of your supposed Humanist conspiracy?

Or is just possible that you are wrong when you claim that evolution and humanism are necessarily linked?

Ghost

* And I could just as easily have used the Anglican church here.

Well technically the Church has no official position. The Pope has spoke approvingly of it [evolution] though. I also think it's what they teach in Catholic schools. All a Catholic has to believe about origins are: universe created from nothing (Big Bang for most, ex nihilio for some), Adam and Eve were literal people, and Adam and Eve are the parents of humanity (There is some evidence supporting monogenism as well).

You find that quite a few Catholics believe in YEC as well as TE. YECs are the minority though.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

why are you steadfastly adamant in refusing to directly and specifically reply to links provided that prove without a doubt the antithesis and uselessness of blending God and creation into one that is humanism's and it's child offshoot, evolution and as presented herein?

Provide some evidence that evolution is an offshoot of humanism as you claim, make sure it explains why the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Church accept evolution but reject humanism.

So far we only have a few unfounded assertions that evolution is an offshoot of humanism and no matter how many times we ask you to prove it you don’t.

Ghost

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Please refute this evidence:

These are humanist manifestos, a manifesto is a statement of political aims and as such can not be refuted. If however you mean to use them as evidence that evolution = humanism then you are wrong. Just because humanists are also evolutionists does not mean that the reverse is true, that is a logical fallacy.

That is like saying that because all moonies believe in God then all people who believe in God are moonies.

Again I ask you; if your assertion that all evolutionists are humanists is true how do you explain the fact that the Pope and Anglican churches accept evolution?

You surely can not seriously be claiming that they are not Christians.

Ghost

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Well technically the Church has no official position. The Pope has spoke approvingly of it [evolution] though. I also think it's what they teach in Catholic schools. All a Catholic has to believe about origins are: universe created from nothing (Big Bang for most, ex nihilio for some), Adam and Eve were literal people, and Adam and Eve are the parents of humanity (There is some evidence supporting monogenism as well).

You find that quite a few Catholics believe in YEC as well as TE. YECs are the minority though.

Interesting.
All the Catholics I know seem to have the opinion that the Church officially accepts evolution. They keep reminding me of papal infallibility and the fact that is he is Gods representative on Earth, if he accepts a theory then its as good as official with or without a Papal decree. However I am united reform (we officially accept evolutionary theory, so I guess that according to Pilgrim 33 we are humanists and not Christians) so I am no expert on Catholicism.

I must admit I have never met a Catholic YEC, but then again until I came here I had only encountered 2 YECs, and both belonged to a religious sect rather than a major denomination.

Ghost

 

[Dark_Lite]

Interesting.
All the Catholics I know seem to have the opinion that the Church officially accepts evolution. They keep reminding me of papal infallibility and the fact that is he is Gods representative on Earth, if he accepts a theory then its as good as official with or without a Papal decree. However I am united reform (we officially accept evolutionary theory, so I guess that according to Pilgrim 33 we are humanists and not Christians) so I am no expert on Catholicism.

I must admit I have never met a Catholic YEC, but then again until I came here I had only encountered 2 YECs, and both belonged to a religious sect rather than a major denomination.

Ghost

Go to OBOB, there's quite a few of them there. The Pope is infallible on matters of faith and morals. The origin of the universe isn't a matter of faith or morals (besides what's already been declared as dogma. That pertains to Original Sin though).

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Go to OBOB, there's quite a few of them there. The Pope is infallible on matters of faith and morals. The origin of the universe isn't a matter of faith or morals (besides what's already been declared as dogma. That pertains to Original Sin though).

Thanks for the reply, may I just ask, what is OBOB?

Ghost

 

[Dark_Lite]

Thanks for the reply, may I just ask, what is OBOB?

Ghost

One Bread, One Body. The Catholic Forum.

It's under congregation on the CO part of the forums.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Again I ask you, are you making the claim that the Roman Catholic Church* is part of your supposed Humanist conspiracy?

Just in case you aren't aware, there are plenty of fundimentalists who believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ ...

* And I could just as easily have used the Anglican church here.

Have you read Morris's ranting about this subject?
For True Believer YECs the answer to your question is 'Yes'.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"-Hebrews 10:23

I only wish that Young Earth Creationists (YECs) would do so with respect to creationism.

But instead of simply accepting Gen 1 as literally true on faith, they spread falsehoods trying to argue that the physical evidence agrees with their position.

The quoted definition's subject is Science, not evolution. To automatically include evolution into this definition is an unqualified leap in logic.

The objectivity and, thus, its objective, is, at the onset biased to begin with; as defined above, the desire to seek the "best" explanation is not the viewpoint of the evolutionsits; rather, the preconceived attitude, "i believe it's right, so now I'm going to prove it's right" is the approach used. Nothing else is even considered.

Why does it rain?

Matt 5:45b
"He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."

Okay, but how does that help me decide whether to recommend an evacuation when a hurricane might be coming this way?

To understand the physical world one must study the physical world, that is what Darwin did during his years on the Beagle, that is what Wallace did during his years in the Amazon basin and based on the physical evidence they independently came up with the idea of natural selection.

(a paraphrase, I lost the original quote)
Evolution is a religion

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion
re·li·gion

• • Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
  • A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

• The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

• A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

• A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

The last definition is the only possibly applicable one and could be applied just as well to running linux on your computer or being a Cubs fan. For your statement to be anything more than empty rhetorical games playing you would have to show that most if not all of those who think that evolution (with or without God's help) accounts for biotic diversity do so primarily because of that "zeal".

A counter-example is available here: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm Glenn Morton was a Young Earth Creationist (YEC) for many years before he gave up trying to explain away the evidence.

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/person.htm is a collection of people who have had problems because of the conflict between evidence and the YEC view of the universe.

Contrary to your claim support for evolution and an old Earth is based on evidence not religious belief.

(kya=kilo years ago, thus 10kya refers to a demonstration that goes back 10,000 years)

With respect to the specific YEC claims of the Earth being 6400 or 10000 years old, tree rings in Arizona (bristlecone pines, 9kya), Europe (oak, 11 kya; pine 13kya), lake varves in Minn. (10-12kya), Poland (13kya), Japan (40kya) all individually provide strong evidence, and their close agreement with each other demostrated via C14 dating is overwhelming. Overlapping those dates and going beyond to over 130kya are the ice cores from Greenland and Antartica.

http://www.cio.phys.rug.nl/HTML-docs/Verslag/97/PE-04.htm varves and rings.
www.life.uiuc.edu/hu/Wright_et_al._2004.pdf Steel Lake, MN.
home.entouch.net/dmd/age.htm Lake of the Clouds,MN.

Pushing the age of the solar system and universe into the billions of years are a number of types of evidence, such as the local lack of radioactive elements that have "short" half lives (i.e. less than 10 million years) and the 3 degree background radiation.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-yea.html#proof6
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest3.html
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bbtest.html

That physical constants(e.g. speed of light and decay constants) have remained constant over the past several tens of thousands of years is demonstrated by the spectra of stars in the milky way as well as the spectra of a supernova, over the past two billion by studies of the natural fission reactor near oklo and over the life of the universe by looking at absorption of quasar light

http://www.eso.org/outreach/press-rel/pr-2004/pr-05-04.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/ancientproof/SN1987A.html
http://super.colorado.edu/~astr1020/homework4/hwk4.html
and pretty pictures:
http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2000/sn1987a/more.html

With respect to the specific question of evolution the fossil record makes it clear that over time some species have died off and others have come into being.It also makes clear that there is a connection between those that already existed and those that came into being.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

The morphological tree of existing species by itself is highly suggestive at the least, the evidence of molecular genetics, particularly the interspecies pattern of non-functional differences in working proteins such as cytochrome c as well as patterns of errors such as that of the nonoperative genes that would normally produce the enzyme GLO which in turn produces vitamin C is quite strong and the correlation between the two trees makes the evidence overwhelming.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/molgen/

So no, the basis of support for evolution among the scientificially literate is not religiousity, it is evidence.
I do note that there are those who zealously support evolution against scientific creationism, but while some of those people are motivated by religious, or anti-religious feelings, many, quite likely most, are motivated by a disgust at the blatant falsehoods spread by the YEC community.

 

[USincognito]

Robert, I gave you a rep hit for that magnificent post, but I felt you needed some public comment and an act of commiseration.

Well, a pre-emptive commiseration as all of your links and comments will be ingored for the same old PRATTs and invalid arguments we've all grown so wearily accustomed to.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Just in case you aren't aware, there are plenty of fundimentalists who believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ ...

Have you read Morris's ranting about this subject?
For True Believer YECs the answer to your question is 'Yes'.

Thats just... odd. And I'm a protestant.

Ghost

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Robert, I gave you a rep hit for that magnificent post,

Thanks.

but I felt you needed some public comment and an act of commiseration.

Well, a pre-emptive commiseration as all of your links and comments will be ingored for the same old PRATTs and invalid arguments we've all grown so wearily accustomed to.

Sigh.

Thanks, I try to keep a little flame of hope alive but I'm afraid you are going to be proved right.

JetBlack asked earlier in this thread why AiG keeps on lying. I recently read a suggestion somewhere that (some of) the neo-Cons are supporting Intelligent Design because they believe "The Masses" need the leadership of the church.

A parallel thought occured to me that the leadership of the Creation Science community may believe that supporting literal creationism is necessary to keep fundamentalist churches together. That if they acknowledged the evidence for evolution the churches would fall apart and we would become another Sodom.

But in the end I have to vote for incompetance/self-delusion over conspiracy theories.

 

[william jay schroeder]

Fossil records show what as gone exstinct. were does it show what has become into being. of course their are those that were thought to be exstinct but sunddenly there they are. I know im spelling exstinct wrong right, doesnt look right. anyways, How do evolutionist get by the fact that yoou need two species one male one female to reproduce. and how would mutations create this in a way that fits each other perfectly.

 

[JohnR7]

Just in case you aren't aware, there are plenty of fundimentalists who believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ ...

I hear that the church has made so much progress that they are not burning them at the stake for that now a days.

 

[Robert the Pilegrim]

Thats just... odd. And I'm a protestant.
Ghost

Well, I'm afraid I can't be tooooo judgemental, being Lutheran.

 

[JohnR7]

I also think it's what they teach in Catholic schools.

They have to teach it. The graduating students will be tested on it in order to qualify to receive a high school degree. How convenient that the pope says it is ok to teach it in the catholic schools sense they are required by law to teach it.

 

[ProtestantDan]

Fossil records show what as gone exstinct. were does it show what has become into being. of course their are those that were thought to be exstinct but sunddenly there they are. I know im spelling exstinct wrong right, doesnt look right. anyways, How do evolutionist get by the fact that yoou need two species one male one female to reproduce. and how would mutations create this in a way that fits each other perfectly.

It's tough to be 100% sure whether certain things have gone extinct, though for many species it can be said to be extinct within reasonable doubt. Evolutionary fossils can show an appoximate time span that a particular species and/or specific creature existed from carbon dating. I don't see how a creature formerly thought to be extinct (i.e. the coelacanth) being rediscovered sheds doubt on the Theory. Nature is mysterious and will likely always have mysteries. Evolution is something that arose out of an attempt to explain part of nature. It's nearly impossible to keep track of all species and every member of that species. One explanation for there being female and male genders is in the very concept of natural evolution and adaptation. Creatures respond, evolve, and adapt to meet the needs of an environment that can and does change. Thus, one explanation is that the environment required two genders to reproduce and/or make reproduction easier (asexual organisms have no gender) and as a result adaptation and evolution occurred to create the two genders. Another great example is in certain types of frogs that are known to change gender in order to reproduce if there is a shortage of one gender in an area. This is referenced in the film Jurassic Park, though it is not a fabrication made up for the movie. A similar occurrence has been observed in chickens, though with less successful results in terms of breeding.