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Evolution - the illusion of a scientific theory

lifepsyop

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Not orphan genes -- thousands of orphan genes in humans but not in chimps. I do know what "orphan gene" means. (A moderately intelligent six grader could figure out what it means just from its context here.)

Distinguishing protein-coding and noncoding genes in the human genome
Distinguishing protein-coding and noncoding genes in the human genome

In this study they identified 1,177 orphan genes in humans but not found in primates. I retract my claim that they are functional. This is not known.

In this paper, their conclusions are pretty interesting though. It shows how the belief in Evolution is being imposed on the data. Because function in the orphans would portray Evolution in an unfavorable light, (too much new function after break with chimps) the authors conclude that they must not have function.

"If the orphans represent valid human protein-coding genes, we would have to conclude that the vast majority of the orphans were born after the divergence from chimpanzee. Such a model would require a prodigious rate of gene birth in mammalian lineages and a ferocious rate of gene death erasing the huge number of genes born before the divergence from chimpanzee. We reject such a model as wholly implausible. We thus conclude that the vast majority of orphans are simply randomly occurring ORFs that do not represent protein-coding genes. "


Now if we do find unequivocal evidence for function in these orphans, just wait and see, it will be accommodated. "Well I guess evolution can do that after all!" Actually this is similar to evolutionists rationalization many other Orphan genes that have been shown to be functional protein-coders. From an evolutionary standpoint, this was totally unexpected prior to the discovery.

What is unfortunate though is how Evolution religion actually stops science. Because the authors believe so strongly in Evolution, instead of leaving the question open, they end up discouraging any search for function in these genes. They *know* there must be no function in them because "evolution is a fact"... It's the same science-stopper behavior that we saw with "junk DNA" .
 
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Dizredux

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Ashby Camp dismantled many of TalkOrigin's smoke and mirrors awhile ago.

A Critique of Douglas Theobald’s
“29 Evidences for Macroevolution”
- A Critique of ''29 Evidences for Macroevolution'' - Intro -

Who is Asby Camp and what is his background? I tend to be a little cautious of things on true origins. I remember when the founder got his head handed to him on talk.origins and ran off to start true origins to counter them.

Doesn't mean that true origins is necessarily wrong but needs to be taken with a lot of caution.

Add on: I read some of the articles from Camp and I would strongly suggest a *lot* of caution

Dizredux
 
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lifepsyop

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Who is Asby Camp and what is his background? I tend to be a little cautious of things on true origins. I remember when the founder got his head handed to him on talk.origins and ran off to start true origins to counter them.

Doesn't mean that true origins is necessarily wrong but needs to be taken with a lot of caution.

Add on: I read some of the articles from Camp and I would strongly suggest a *lot* of caution

Dizredux

I don't know Camp's background. I go by the actual arguments and the ones he lays out are generally impressive refutations of Theobald's claims as well as exposing Theobald's underlying philosophical/teleological assumptions that he smuggles into "29+ evidences"

And as far as caution I would say the same about TalkOrigins. For instance it's clear from the outset in Theobald's thesis that he has a personal vendetta against Biblical Christianity so it would be naive to not expect some subjective bias in his presentation.
 
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NannaNae

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Distinguishing protein-coding and noncoding genes in the human genome
Distinguishing protein-coding and noncoding genes in the human genome

In this study they identified 1,177 orphan genes in humans but not found in primates. I retract my claim that they are functional. This is not known.

In this paper, their conclusions are pretty interesting though. It shows how the belief in Evolution is being imposed on the data. Because function in the orphans would portray Evolution in an unfavorable light, (too much new function after break with chimps) the authors conclude that they must not have function.

"If the orphans represent valid human protein-coding genes, we would have to conclude that the vast majority of the orphans were born after the divergence from chimpanzee. Such a model would require a prodigious rate of gene birth in mammalian lineages and a ferocious rate of gene death erasing the huge number of genes born before the divergence from chimpanzee. We reject such a model as wholly implausible. We thus conclude that the vast majority of orphans are simply randomly occurring ORFs that do not represent protein-coding genes. "


Now if we do find unequivocal evidence for function in these orphans, just wait and see, it will be accommodated. "Well I guess evolution can do that after all!" Actually this is similar to evolutionists rationalization many other Orphan genes that have been shown to be functional protein-coders. From an evolutionary standpoint, this was totally unexpected prior to the discovery.

What is unfortunate though is how Evolution religion actually stops science. Because the authors believe so strongly in Evolution, instead of leaving the question open, they end up discouraging any search for function in these genes. They *know* there must be no function in them because "evolution is a fact"... It's the same science-stopper behavior that we saw with "junk DNA" .
ok so these Junk dna and these orphan genes... do you have any guess what they are?
(besides "they shall becomes one flesh issues" with some of these orphaned placed genes maybe)

you see what science will never explain because they refuse to see it or ask or answer . is that all men and all woman are from what I can only call direct clans because that is how I learned it .

within these clans men throw true type in a given environment and with in a given population .. it so far the only thing that dna researchers can "SEE" is only the male clans . because it is only what they can find because it is the only thing looked for ...it is only the males that they can " see ".

race is only the father and the mothers father. thus one and 1/2 generatrion deep .
that is all they can see that is all they have wanted to see ! to compare one race with another just to finds the differences yes.. but that part is totally controlled by the direct male line linages.

so where is the mothers clan line? they have to be there someplace , because science does not see them at all .

because they breed true also ..

all woman from the same line can be found pretty easy by true observation... all their kids by the same males clans will look all alike with in each female line. but science can't find them by any kind of autosomal genetics with less than 4%...

because they only see the differences.. those variations which is totally controlled by the males. where mostly females control function and maybe size issues with in an environment. all science can see of the females is less than 4% of both of the fathers mother 's X's lineage the whole direct female lineage and 5% give or take of the direct female lineage.. all of it.. that is all they can see.
because males
races or types are imprinted onto the females direct lineages .. so what is that the race imprinted upon? because they are only seeing the race of the males. but the females lines breed true also and it is there someplace , and it is something they don't consider important that is for dang sure!
Race is only a generation and 1/2 deep. and they can't see history though they impose it into their theories onto all people in the most arrogant ways imaginable. the theories are all so very twisted up because of their ignorance as to how genetics is actually passed down from our ancestors and they do seem to be completely void of any true questions and real answers .

They have had to maintain a belief in
random and mystic genetics in order to maintain scientism theories of a mystical magic random beginning.. so they are unwilling to ask the questions which come from true knowledge and unbiased observation.
so they don't have a clue what they are talking about.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Your argument is foolish because you are presenting a tautology.

Wow. Just wow.

I explained this to you before.

Yep. You've shown you're still not getting falsification so I'll keep trying.

The very fact that such feathers would be occurring in mammals makes them non-bird feathers by definition. Even if they function the exact same way as birds and have highly similar molecular/developmental pathways... they would still be mammal feathers for the simple fact that they occur on mammals.

It's amazing that such a simple thing is so hard to grasp.
- Feather like growths on mammals =/= bird feathers, therefore evolution not falsified.
- Bird feathers, honest to goodness bird feathers with vanes, barbules, a calamus, a rachis, positioned in pterlae and apteria on mammals = bird feathers = a swapped module, therefore evolution is falsified.

You may as well be saying evolution would be falsified if mammals weren't mammals. You're making no sense.

That bears zero resemblance to what I'm saying. You're just not comprehending it. Maybe this would be easier for you if we tackled another bird related falsification - a bird with both wings and arms. That would falsify evolution as well.
 
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lifepsyop

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- Feather like growths on mammals =/= bird feathers, therefore evolution not falsified.
- Bird feathers, honest to goodness bird feathers with vanes, barbules, a calamus, a rachis, positioned in pterlae and apteria on mammals = bird feathers = a swapped module, therefore evolution is falsified.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Let's just forget the word "Bird" and focus on the anatomy itself. Please explain how the above is impossible from an evolutionary perspective. Please be precise. Don't just say "it couldn't happen" which has been the sum of your argument so far.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Let's just forget the word "Bird" and focus on the anatomy itself. Please explain how the above is impossible from an evolutionary perspective. Please be precise. Don't just say "it couldn't happen" which has been the sum of your argument so far.

No that is not the sum of my argument.*

Here's the most simple distillation I can try without resorting to drawings.

Bird feathers on mammals = possible.
Bird feathers on mammals observed = falsification of evolutionary theory.

Here's Theobald's take on it and where I got that example:
Potential Falsification:
It would be very problematic if many species were found that combined characteristics of different nested groupings. Proceeding with the previous example, some nonvascular plants could have seeds or flowers, like vascular plants, but they do not. Gymnosperms (e.g. conifers or pines) occasionally could be found with flowers, but they never are. Non-seed plants, like ferns, could be found with woody stems; however, only some angiosperms have woody stems. Conceivably, some birds could have mammary glands or hair; some mammals could have feathers (they are an excellent means of insulation). Certain fish or amphibians could have differentiated or cusped teeth, but these are only characteristics of mammals. A mix and match of characters like this would make it extremely difficult to objectively organize species into nested hierarchies. Unlike organisms, cars do have a mix and match of characters, and this is precisely why a nested hierarchy does not flow naturally from classification of cars.

If it were impossible, or very problematic, to place species in an objective nested classification scheme (as it is for the car, chair, book, atomic element, and elementary particle examples mentioned above), macroevolution would be effectively disproven. More precisely, if the phylogenetic tree of all life gave statistically significant low values of phylogenetic signal (hierarchical structure), common descent would be resolutely falsified.

* To clarify, there is a whole series of genes and structures that would have to mutate and evolve in precisely the same way to produce identical (meaning down the the last detail in form and possibly function) structures in two different beings from different clades. It's possible that such a highly unlikely event could occur, but not within the predictions and potential falsifications of evolutionary theory.

All along I have never said is was impossible for a mammal to have bird feathers. I have always said that such a thing would falsify evolutionary theory.
 
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biggles53

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Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Let's just forget the word "Bird" and focus on the anatomy itself. Please explain how the above is impossible from an evolutionary perspective. Please be precise. Don't just say "it couldn't happen" which has been the sum of your argument so far.

Huh..? There may be something subtle in that, that I can't see...?

But, our currently accepted theory of evolution is based upon the observation that feathers developed on a 'branch' that does not include mammals...

So, if we discovered mammals that DID, that model of evolution would be invalidated...

It's almost like you're asking ......" If the evolution of life on the planet were to start all over, would it be feasible that a branch of that 'Evolution II' could see the development of mammalian-like species with feathers...?"

To my untrained understanding, the answer would be 'yes'... it would be possible...

But then, that wouldn't be the evolutionary process that we HAVE observed....
 
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biggles53

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Let me go further....

Is it possible that there might be somewhere in our universe where gravitational attraction doesn't 'work'...?

Yes, it's possible.....but then we'd have to throw out our current theory that explains gravity...

How likely do you think that is....?
 
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USincognito

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Ashby Camp dismantled many of TalkOrigin's smoke and mirrors awhile ago.

A Critique of Douglas Theobald’s
“29 Evidences for Macroevolution”
- A Critique of ''29 Evidences for Macroevolution'' - Intro -

Oh wow man. You just blew my mind. I hadn't seen Camp's response until July 19th.... 2003.

Theobald has responded to Camp's critique.
A response to Ashby Camp's "Critique"

Nice red herring by the way. You didn't address my point. In each of his sections Theobald provides a prediction and potential falsification. You claim such things cannot exist within evolutionary theory.
This is because ToE is built on a metaphysical worldview, and not the rigid prediction-falsification criteria found in real scientific theories.
Quick! Someone contact Douglas Theobald and tell him to edit out all the prediction and potential falsification sections of "29 Evidences".
If you're right, why was Theobald able to include a prediction and a falsification in each of his evidences essays? :scratch:
 
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USincognito

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Wow, didn't think it was a big deal,

Of course not. Your whole shtick is predicated on pretending that evolution claims that natural selection is a "creative force" or some such straw man.

...but I'll go back to calling them culled genetic accidents if it makes you feel better.

Feel free to use whatever non-scientific Creationist buzz words make you feel comfortable. The rest of us will continue to use proper scientific terminology and call you out for your semantics and equivocation. :cool:
 
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lifepsyop

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Here's the most simple distillation I can try without resorting to drawings.

Bird feathers on mammals = possible.
Bird feathers on mammals observed = falsification of evolutionary theory.
.....
All along I have never said is was impossible for a mammal to have bird feathers. I have always said that such a thing would falsify evolutionary theory.

Neither you or Theobald has provided an explanation. Theobald vaguely asserts it would be a "mix and match". You vaguely assert it would be a "swapped module". Neither of you explain why it would falsify Evolution, you just know that it's safe to say that we're not going to find mammals with feathers so you're claiming it's an evolutionary prediction when it isn't.

Let's look at this a different way that may shed light on the issue.

Hypothetically, let's say certain types of mammals with feathers were well-known in Darwin's time. Do you think a theory of evolution and phylogeny would have been developed around this observation, or ToE would have been stopped dead in its tracks at some point? If the latter, why?

The problem is that, like many evolutionary "potential falsifications", you are only presenting them from the safety of already firmly established knowledge.

As Ashby Camp correctly notes, you are taking mere observations and reading them back into a plastic theory... a theory that could potentially have accommodated the contradiction if it had presented itself at the time the theory was being developed.
 
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lifepsyop

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Of course not. Your whole shtick is predicated on pretending that evolution claims that natural selection is a "creative force" or some such straw man.

Feel free to use whatever non-scientific Creationist buzz words make you feel comfortable. The rest of us will continue to use proper scientific terminology and call you out for your semantics and equivocation. :cool:

You don't think 'culled genetic accidents' is an accurate term for random mutations + natural selection? What's wrong with it?

Is it because it takes away from the sense of mystical creative power of natural selection?

By the way, evolutionists themselves are constantly describing evolution/natural selection as a "creative force" or a similar phrase... they can't help themselves. The pantheistic mysticism inherent in evolutionary beliefs comes out naturally.
 
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biggles53

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You don't think 'culled genetic accidents' is an accurate term for random mutations + natural selection? What's wrong with it?

Is it because it takes away from the sense of mystical creative power of natural selection?

By the way, evolutionists themselves are constantly describing evolution/natural selection as a "creative force" or a similar phrase... they can't help themselves. The pantheistic mysticism inherent in evolutionary beliefs comes out naturally.

What a load of crap......it's a mathematical calculation, nothing more.....
 
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NannaNae

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so just to prove what they are not seeing ...

even you can see this kind of mystical...magic ..



Now go to the picture called 'Highland calves' .
http://tcpermaculture.blogspot.com/2011/06/heritage-breeds-highland-cattle.html

Can you see the male line are there.. you have to see the hairy blond calfs.

add this in a dominant brown type brahma or water buffalo type male.( It will take me a few breedings to figure out which one ) .

so add some of


http://www.google.com/search?q=high...=1445&bih=849#q=highland+calf&rls=en&tbm=isch


PLUS
brahma bulls - Google Search

and or


water buffalo - Google Search

Equals

http://www.google.com/search?q=whit...m68QH3-YHQAw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1445&bih=849

instead of seeing truth and history ..... everyone gets mystical and magical...it is easier ! and no one has to deal in truth!

in three generations from these above anyone can produce a buffalo that geneticist can't tell from a long time " evolved over billions of years" buffalo... because race and breed is only less than 3 generations deep! because the male lines breed 100% predictably when you de-mystify the mystified , and de confused the confused.
 
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lifepsyop

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What a load of crap......it's a mathematical calculation, nothing more.....

lol, that's a good one. Please give me the "mathematical calculation" on the likelihood of culled genetic accidents producing new anatomical systems in an organism.

(note: saying "natural selection dunnit" is not a calculation)
 
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CabVet

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in three generations from these above anyone can produce a buffalo that geneticist can't tell from a long time " evolved over billions of years" buffalo... because race and breed is only less than 3 generations deep! because the male lines breed 100% predictably when you de-mystify the mystified , and de confused the confused.

Three generations is not enough to create a genetic bottleneck and inbreeding depression. You should try again after you learn some genetics.
 
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NannaNae

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Three generations is not enough to create a genetic bottleneck and inbreeding depression. You should try again after you learn some genetics.
you don't know what you are talking about.. all breeds in less than 3 generations. because all male lines all breed true once you know some of the parameters , and # basic male lines within the composition of that "Breed" . and they don't see females at all.
race and breed and dna and it's theories is so far only controlled by males , their genes , and their little minds.
(( ok yes in really really high resolution and maybe only by some geneticist they just might be able to find one or two genes that aren't there in the late made buffalo ... but there will be no nincompoops with an agenda AKA" intellectuals" able to "Observe " any difference at all ( now isn't this 'Observation' is it not the so called bases of your religion and most all it's theories? ) or was Darwin using observation in a metaphysical sense?
 
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