Evolution: The Doctrine of Delusion

[Kornelius]

So wait a minute. If you reject the truth, God allows you to be deluded, so you can't see the truth. (because you are deluded) Therefore, if you reject the truth once, you have no hope of returning, because you will be forever deluded. You won't just suddenly say "oh, ok, creationism is the truth" because you think that you already have the truth in evolution, because you are deluded. This is a terrible system. Once you are deluded, you are pretty much screwed, unless you just completely reject your deluded version of the truth. Some may do that, but it seems clear that God would save more souls without this delusion thing. It completely undermines the free exchange of ideas.

You must also have pleasure in your unrighteousness

Anyway. Somewhat OT. I always wonder why people who use the delusion argument to support creationsim, given how higher beings can delude people at will, won't start suspecting that Christanity itself might be a delusion brought on by some god who uses Christianity to filter out people who he doesn't like.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Ok, so you accept that there is a delusion. Now we just need to define just what that delusion is. That I think is why this forum is here.

He said no such thing, Johnny. Quit putting words in people's mouths.

 

[Mistermystery]

Who is the we?

It's a part of the question. I'm talking about we the people. Everyone. What your proposing (that God created delusion so you won't look beyond that) is a very closed system, and it seems to have one big flaw: namely that it's based because the bible says so. The Islam also says that you should follow that because the Islam says so. Same for x-other religions. Heck, even some books that are non-religious of nature tell you that you should believe in it. So how do you know that you've got the right one?

 

[lucaspa]

As for me, I am just giving you the Bible.

You are giving us out-of-context pieces of the Bible that you are using as false witness to have the Bible say something it is not.

If you do not appreciate my comments on the Bible, then skip over my comments and just read the passages and we would be happy for you to contribute to this conversation by giving us your comments on these passages.

I did give you comments on the passages. That is what you have ignored because you know they are true and that the Bible doesn't say what you try to deceive people into thinking it says.

 

[lucaspa]

Christians have not shown creationism to be wrong. The theory that the earth is only 6000 years old has been pretty much shown to be wrong. But the OEC and GAP creationism theorys have not been shown to be wrong in any way.

Both OEC And GAP creationism have been shown to be wrong both Biblically and by Christians in science. Both require independent creation of "kinds". The data show clearly that "kinds" -- however you define it -- evolved from previous life and were not independently created. One of the individuals that have found transitional series is Charles D Walcott. His specialty was the Burgess Shales, which falsifies the OEC contention of independent creations at the Cambrian.

Another devout Christian evolutionist was Theododius Dobzhansky, who showed in his studies of speciation of Drosophila on the Hawaiian Islands that there was no "gap" about 14,000 years ago.

You have made some attempts to discredit the GAP. but all you have done is presented strawman arguements.

Then why have you never answered them? Please start a new thread and demonstrate how my arguments -- based on data you presented -- are strawmen. Step right up John and put your money where your mouth is.

Christians know that God is the Creator. It did not just happen all by itself.

Haven't I always said that the discussion here is not whether God created, but how? Sorry, John, but you know evolution is not atheism. There are some people who believe it all happened without God. Those are atheists. But we aren't discussing atheism. We are discussing evolution. I refer you to the second quote in my signature. I also refer you to these Christian theologians. Pay particular attention to the bolded parts:

"The scientific evidence in favour of evolution, as a theory is infinitely more Christian than the theory of 'special creation'. For it implies the immanence of God in nature, and the omnipresence of His creative power. Those who oppose the doctrine of evolution in defence of a 'continued intervention' of God, seem to have failed to notice that a theory of occasional intervention implies as its correlative a theory of ordinary absence." AL Moore, Science and Faith, 1889, pg 184.

"The one absolutely impossible conception of God, in the present day, is that which represents him as an occasional visitor. Science has pushed the deist's God further and further away, and at the moment when it seemed as if He would be thrust out all together, Darwinism appeared, and, under the disguise of a foe, did the work of a friend. ... Either God is everywhere present in nature, or He is nowhere." AL Moore, Lex Mundi, 12th edition, 1891, pg 73.

"The last few years have witnessed the gradual acceptance by Christians of the great scientific generalisation of our age, which is briefly if somewhat vaguely described as the Theory of Evolution. ... It is an advance in our theological thinking; a definite increase of insight; a fresher and fuller appreciation of those 'many ways' in which 'God fulfills Himself'. JR Ilingsworth, Lex Mundi, 12th edition,

"Creation is continuous --it is a creatio continua. The ongoing cosmic processes of evolution are God himself being creator in his own universe. If I had to represent on a blackboard the relation of God and the world, including man, I would not simply draw three spheres labelled respectively 'nature', 'man', and 'God' and draw arrows between them to represent their interrelation. Rather, I would denote an area representing nature and place that entirely within another area representing God, ... When I came to depict man, I would have to place him with his feet firmly in nature but with his sef-consciousness (perhaps represented by his brain?) protruding beyond the boundary of nature and into the area depicting God." A Peacocke, Biological evolution and Christian Theology in Darwinism and Divinity, 1985, pg 124.

 

[Larry]

John, do you equate belief in evolution to atheism?

 

[Larry]

BTW, context is important when citing scripture. The 2 Thessalonians verses are talking about people rejecting the TRUTH OF SALVATION, and that they will continue in LAWLESSNESS AND UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, and will thererefore be condemned.

 

[Arikay]

So, god is now a deciever because John can't be wrong.

 

[Bushido216]

Ra, ra, sis boom ba!

 

[Larry]

Ra, ra, sis boom ba!

Okaaaay?

 

[JohnR7]

John, do you equate belief in evolution to atheism?

Some of it you have to equate with the apostasy.

 

[JohnR7]

You are giving us out-of-context pieces of the Bible

What Bible school do you attend?
Who have you studied under?
What Christian organization are you a part of?
Do your beliefs coincide with their traditional beliefs?

 

[Split Rock]

Evolution: The Doctrine of Delusion
The first thing we need to address here is: Why does God allow this delusion? The answer here is really very simple, because people rejected the truth.

As you have done NOTHING to prove that evolution is a Delusion, I can only conclude that it is not us scientists who are the deluded ones...

 

[Tomk80]

As you have done NOTHING to prove that evolution is a Delusion, I can only conclude that it is not us scientists who are the deluded ones...

Or, since John is the only one holding his own GAP-theory, he might just be the only one who is not deluded. You never know, it might just be true.

 

[Ishmael Borg]

What Bible school do you attend?
Who have you studied under?
What Christian organization are you a part of?
Do your beliefs coincide with their traditional beliefs?

Replace the word 'Bible'/'Christian' with the word science, ask yourself these questions, and tell us where you get off making any proclamations about the Theory of Biological Evolution like the one in your OP?

Yuck.

 

[Bushido216]

What Bible school do you attend?
Who have you studied under?
What Christian organization are you a part of?
Do your beliefs coincide with their traditional beliefs?

Ah, apparently evolution is the apostasy because it doesn't agree with traditional beliefs centered around an era where scientific study was minimal.

 

[Ron21647]

I'll vote with Lucaspa, Larry, and Bushido216 onb this one. The quoted passages refer to the fact that in the end times, the Antichrist will declare himself to be God, and people will believe and follow him. God will allow this delusion to occur, because people familiar with the Bible and what it says about the end times will know better.

Trying to use this passage to talk about evolution is taking it completely out of context.

Ron

 

[JohnR7]

since John is the only one holding his own GAP-theory

No, I hold to the GAP theory because that is what the pastor at the church I attend holds to.

 

[JohnR7]

As you have done NOTHING to prove that evolution is a Delusion

It is very simple, when you reject the truth, then you are turned over to a delusion. Man's theory of evolution rejects the truth as we find it in our Bible.

There is no middle ground, your either in the truth, or error. Everyone has to make their choice which way they are going to go.

If you do not have the Holy Spirit of Truth, then you will be deceived. No one is able to find the truth on their own, without the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ishmael Borg]

No, I hold to the GAP theory because that is what the pastor at the church I attend holds to.

Well OK then. Why didn't you tell us he was an expert in geology, physiology, palaentology, genetics, and of course, theology?