Evolution: The Doctrine of Delusion

[JohnR7]

The first thing we need to address here is: Why does God allow this delusion? The answer here is really very simple, because people rejected the truth.

2 Thes. 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [10] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [12] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

There is a lot that can be learned from this passage. So feel free to ask questions about it. Bible questions are always welcome. But don't ask creationists to try to explain man's theory of evolution to you, becasue it is a lie and we do not deal in lies, we deal in the truth. So if you want to know anything at all about evolution, ask a evolutionist. Creationists are here to defend creationism, not evolution.

So, the answer as to why God allows this delusion is because there are people who take their pleasure in unrightousness. They do not want to live righteous before God. As a result of this, they reject the truth, and they choose to walk in darkness. God does allow them to be deluded, He does allow them to believe a lie, and He does allow them to walk in darkness.

Still, God does show the way, for those who want to walk in the light and receive the truth. He provides a way for all honest hearted people to seek after Him, and to know how to be free from the lies, deceptions and delusions.

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

It is the spirit of truth that guides us and leads us into all truth. We are taught by God. We are not presuaded by man's lies and deceptions.

 

[Jet Black]

are you going to hand the dish around now? this isn't a church you know. you have (unsuprisingly) said absolutely nothing about evolution

 

[Mistermystery]

The first thing we need to address here is: Why does God allow this delusion? The answer here is really very simple, because people rejected the truth.

2 Thes. 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [10] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [12] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

There is a lot that can be learned from this passage. So feel free to ask questions about it. Bible questions are always welcome. But don't ask creationists to try to explain man's theory of evolution to you, becasue it is a lie and we do not deal in lies, we deal in the truth. So if you want to know anything at all about evolution, ask a evolutionist. Creationists are here to defend creationism, not evolution.

So, the answer as to why God allows this delusion is because there are people who take their pleasure in unrightousness. They do not want to live righteous before God. As a result of this, they reject the truth, and they choose to walk in darkness. God does allow them to be deluded, He does allow them to believe a lie, and He does allow them to walk in darkness.

Still, God does show the way, for those who want to walk in the light and receive the truth. He provides a way for all honest hearted people to seek after Him, and to know how to be free from the lies, deceptions and delusions.

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

It is the spirit of truth that guides us and leads us into all truth. We are taught by God. We are not presuaded by man's lies and deceptions.

So wait, it's God who deliberatly decives us? You're a better advocate against Christianity then the average Atheist.

 

[Kornelius]

The first thing we need to address here is: Why does God allow this delusion? The answer here is really very simple, because people rejected the truth.

2 Thes. 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [10] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [12] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

There is a lot that can be learned from this passage. So feel free to ask questions about it. Bible questions are always welcome. But don't ask creationists to try to explain man's theory of evolution to you, becasue it is a lie and we do not deal in lies, we deal in the truth. So if you want to know anything at all about evolution, ask a evolutionist. Creationists are here to defend creationism, not evolution.

Ummm... how exactly did you come to the conclustion that the "delusion" is evolution/science ?

 

[JohnR7]

are you going to hand the dish around now?

Erwin would be more than happy to take up a collection. Last I heard, he even gives blessing points to people who donate.

this isn't a church you know.

Last I looked it was a christian forum.

you have (unsuprisingly) said absolutely nothing about evolution

It is not my job to tell people about evolution, I am here to represent creation"ism". You can tell them about evolution if you want.

 

[JohnR7]

Ummm... how exactly did you come to the conclustion that the "delusion" is evolution/science ?

If you have another theory about what this delusion is that we read about in our Bible, I will be glad to hear what you have to say about it. If you look at my other post you will see that the delusion involves: "birds and four-footed animals and creeping things".

Evolution talks about God's creation. They do not talk so much about God as a creator, but they try to corrupt people with their man made theorys and opinions about the creation. So, I come to this conclusion based on the fact that evolution deal with creation.

 

[lucaspa]

The first thing we need to address here is: Why does God allow this delusion?

No, John, the first thing we need to address is whether evolution is a delusion. You haven't established that it is.

The second thing is whether you are using the Biblical verses correctly. Do they apply to evolution or are the authors talking about something else.

2 Thes. 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, [10] and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, [12] that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul is talking here about the "Day of the Lord". Some people are preaching that the end times have come and gone.

In terms of creationism and evolution, you have a very severe problem. Remember, it was Christians who showed creationism wrong in the first place and Christians who did all the initial work supporting evolution. What's more, it was Christians that universally accepted evolution for theological reasons before the scientific community accepted the science. Christians considered the theology of creationism to be the deception you are talking about.

So, the problem you have is that the vast majority accept evolution. Isn't it more likely that you are the one deceived and not all of them. It is harder to deceive all of them instead of just you.

But don't ask creationists to try to explain man's theory of evolution to you, becasue it is a lie and we do not deal in lies, we deal in the truth.

I say you turn your back on truth. Remember, evolution comes directly from God's second book. So please explain how it can be a lie.

So, the answer as to why God allows this delusion is because there are people who take their pleasure in unrightousness. They do not want to live righteous before God.

But that ignores that the original people who discovered evoution were godly people, most of whom were ministers! And they lived lives of righteousness. That alone shows your statements to be wrong.

As a result of this, they reject the truth, and they choose to walk in darkness. God does allow them to be deluded, He does allow them to believe a lie, and He does allow them to walk in darkness.

It is the spirit of truth that guides us and leads us into all truth. We are taught by God. We are not presuaded by man's lies and deceptions.

But you are persuaded by your own deceptions about GAP Theory. That goes against both books of God. The irony here is overwhelming!

 

[lucaspa]

So wait, it's God who deliberatly decives us? You're a better advocate against Christianity then the average Atheist.

Isn't he though? JohnR7 is the best undercover atheist I've yet encountered.

 

[JohnR7]

So wait, it's God who deliberatly decives us?

God allows people to be deceived, and He takes full responsability for allowing them to be deceived. But the reason they are deceived is because they reject the truth. They do not want to live right before God.

John 3:21
But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

You see, people who walk in the truth, also walk in the light. Their deeds are right before God. They walk it, talk it and they live it. If we do not live right before God, then He does not want us to represent Him. God makes it very clear who is and who is not approved by Him, so there is no confusion and there will be no excuses. Every man's work will be tested by fire.

 

[JohnR7]

Isn't he though? JohnR7 is the best undercover atheist I've yet encountered.

LOL, your a funny guy Paul, and I do appreciate you telling us that about yourself. As for me, I am just giving you the Bible. If you do not appreciate my comments on the Bible, then skip over my comments and just read the passages and we would be happy for you to contribute to this conversation by giving us your comments on these passages.

 

[Kornelius]

If you have another theory about what this delusion is that we read about in our Bible, I will be glad to hear what you have to say about it. If you look at my other post you will see that the delusion involves: "birds and four-footed animals and creeping things".

Evolution talks about God's creation. They do not talk so much about God as a creator, but they try to corrupt people with their man made theorys and opinions about the creation. So, I come to this conclusion based on the fact that evolution deal with creation.

Are these two parts of the bible in any way related to assume that they are talking about the same thing. My point is that there are n+1 ways we could be deluded about things. For example, some socialist Christians could use the same passage to claim that capitalism is a delusion and those who support it have not received the love of truth and are creating an unchristian society where Christ-like qualities in humans are not valued.

Unfortunately, I am not in the know when it comes to Christian theology, but I thought it would be interesting to spark some debate about E vs C on the theological level.

 

[JohnR7]

Remember, it was Christians who showed creationism wrong in the first place

Christians have not shown creationism to be wrong. The theory that the earth is only 6000 years old has been pretty much shown to be wrong. But the OEC and GAP creationism theorys have not been shown to be wrong in any way.

You have made some attempts to discredit the GAP. but all you have done is presented strawman arguements.

Christians know that God is the Creator. It did not just happen all by itself.

 

[Mistermystery]

God allows people to be deceived, and He takes full responsability for allowing them to be deceived. But the reason they are deceived is because they reject the truth. They do not want to live right before God.

Then why did God give us eyes, and a brain? I mean, if we aren't supposed to question his thruth, why go through all the trouble? And why would for someone who does believe in the bible have to keep his eyes shut for all the evidence there is for an old earth/evolution?


I find this whole idea that God's responcible for all the evidence quite... humorous.

 

[JohnR7]

My point is that there are n+1 ways we could be deluded about things.

Ok, so you accept that there is a delusion. Now we just need to define just what that delusion is. That I think is why this forum is here.

 

[Kornelius]

Ok, so you accept that there is a delusion. Now we just need to define just what that delusion is. That I think is why this forum is here.

No... I accept that if you are a Christian and believe in the Bible, you have a scriptural basis for claiming that there may be some kind of a delusion purported by God. How sound that basis is I don't know, since I am not a Christian nor a theologian.

EDIT: But yes, I think you need to not only just define what that delusion is, but also show that your scripture supports your definition. It would be also nice if you could find a way to outrule other interpretations.

 

[JohnR7]

Then why did God give us eyes, and a brain? I mean, if we aren't supposed to question his thruth, why go through all the trouble?

With all due respect, I am not quite so sure I understand your reasoning here. You think that God gives us "eyes and a brain" so that we can "question" the truth. That is not what the Bible says. We are told we can KNOW the truth.

1 John 4:6
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 3:18-19
My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. [19] And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

And why would for someone who does believe in the bible have to keep his eyes shut for all the evidence there is for an old earth/evolution?

Actually, I have been told that OEC is the traditional Christian belief. So no one is being asked to keep their eyes shut to an old earth.

I find this whole idea that God's responcible for all the evidence quite... humorous.

God is truth, and there is no lie in the truth. What you have to look at is God's permissive will. He allows things to happen, because He is patient and does not desire for anyone to perish.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Mistermystery]

With all due respect, I am not quite so sure I understand your reasoning here. You think that God gives us "eyes and a brain" so that we can "question" the truth. That is not what the Bible says. We are told we can KNOW the truth.

1 John 4:6
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 3:18-19
My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. [19] And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

So we have to trust the bible because it says so in the bible. There are many other religions that do exactly the same you know, so how are we to know wich one is the right one?

Actually, I have been told that OEC is the traditional Christian belief. So no one is being asked to keep their eyes shut to an old earth.

But you do for evolution.

 

[JohnR7]

how are we to know wich one is the right one?

Who is the we? As Christians we know them by their love, one for another and because true christians keep the commandments of God. It goes beyond this though. Barb is our choir director, here is a link you can see a photo of her standing in front of the choir. http://www.ernestangley.org/music/choir.htm

Barb was attending a very loving Christian Church. She was having problems with her son. There was a chance that he was going to die from kidney problems. This was 30 years ago, so there was not as much the doctors could do back then, compared to what they can do today. Her church was very loving, they offered her a lot of support and they prayed for her. But her son continued to get worst. Then she did something that was more of a act of desperation than anything else, she took her son to Grace Cathedral for prayer. God performed a miracles and her son recovered. Now 30 years later, both the mother and the son still attend Grace Cathedral. She leads the choir, he is married to Lisa who sings in the beloved Trio group.

The point of all of this is: When God's truth is preached, it will be done in love and there will be signs, wonders, healing and miracles. These signs will FOLLOW AFTER them that believe. Thirty years later, her son is still healed. When the word of God is preached, there will be a demonstration of the power of God, to show that it was indeed the word of God.

This is how you know who represents God and who does not represent God.

 

[danaman5]

So wait a minute. If you reject the truth, God allows you to be deluded, so you can't see the truth. (because you are deluded) Therefore, if you reject the truth once, you have no hope of returning, because you will be forever deluded. You won't just suddenly say "oh, ok, creationism is the truth" because you think that you already have the truth in evolution, because you are deluded. This is a terrible system. Once you are deluded, you are pretty much screwed, unless you just completely reject your deluded version of the truth. Some may do that, but it seems clear that God would save more souls without this delusion thing. It completely undermines the free exchange of ideas.

 

[Aron-Ra]

The first thing we need to address here is: Why does God allow this delusion? The answer here is really very simple, because people rejected the truth.

So they turned to religious doctrines instead, and insist on believing them no matter what, even when they've been shown to be wrong. Faith is a stubborn and immovable conviction that is held in lieu of, or even in spite of, evidence or logical proof. So it is literally a belief without reason and against all reason; one that refuses to be reasoned with. There are no evil spooks involved. Its just a matter of idolatry, or worshipping man-made fables as if they speak for God, while ignoring the whole of creation which attests to the contrary. It is blind baseless and uneasonable faith that that refuses to accept truth.

Evolution is no dilusion. Creationism is. And I can prove that to your satisfaction whenever you're ready.