Evolution Primer

searching12 said:

Actually, it is possible to calculate the age of the universe: it is around 13.7 billion years old.

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That's how long we think the Big Bang has been occurring for, not the age of the universe. At best, we can say the universe is at least 13.5-14 billion years old.

Just saying

MorkandMindy said:

I wasn't aware I was using the double standard game: no one knows how old the universe is because no one was there etc. but then with Biblical stuff a much lower standard, well no proof at all was required. But it got a bit too double standard with something I was expected to believe but couldn't find out exactly what it was.


What did it was a very knowledgeable Christian, one that knew more than I did, had also never resolved if the Noah Flood was local or global. He lent me a book he thought had the answer, I read it and found the author spent a few pages in it also explaining he was puzzled.


The problem is a local flood is contrary to scripture and a global flood is contrary to everything except scripture.


I couldn't continue as things were. The other Bible experts could continue believing because they were paid by their churches so they lost nothing by continuing to be all religious whereas I was losing my chances to move up the career ladder (and lost them in fact).

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searching12 said:

Actually, it is possible to calculate the age of the universe: it is around 13.7 billion years old.

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OK then calculate for me when the flood was and if it was local or global.

MorkandMindy said:

OK then calculate for me when the flood was and if it was local or global.

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I can't. The Biblical story of the flood is still being pondered on by scientists. It may or may not have happened, but what is for sure, is that Noah didn't have an ark with pairs of all the animals on earth on it. That's just silly.

MorkandMindy said:

OK then calculate for me when the flood was and if it was local or global.

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The local flood in the Pacific North West happened at the end of the last Ice Age about 14,000 years ago.

Here's a link: Ice Age Floods Institute: About the Floods


.

MorkandMindy said:

...

a local flood is contrary to scripture and a global flood is contrary to everything except scripture
...

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LightSeaker said:

The local flood in the Pacific North West happened at the end of the last Ice Age about 14,000 years ago.

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No point in building a huge Ark if all the animals could just leave, and no point in the flood at all when most of the people survived it

MorkandMindy said:

No point in building a huge Ark if all the animals could just leave, and no point in the flood at all when most of the people survived it

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If you're a Christian who doesn't insist in taking Genesis literally, it's pretty obvious that there wasn't an Ark on which Noah gathered all kinds* of nostril-breathing animal to survive a Global Flood.

And I reiterate my standing challenge: prove me wrong.


*lol

Wiccan_Child said:

That's how long we think the Big Bang has been occurring for, not the age of the universe. At best, we can say the universe is at least 13.5-14 billion years old.

Just saying

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This universe did not exist before the Big Bang. There may be other universes too we don't know about, though.

good job, you are a smart man.

Wiccan_Child said:

If you're a Christian who doesn't insist in taking Genesis literally, it's pretty obvious that there wasn't an Ark on which Noah gathered all kinds* of nostril-breathing animal to survive a Global Flood.

And I reiterate my standing challenge: prove me wrong.


*lol

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I never could get those Liberal Christian half way positions; the Bible isn't factually accurate but it is 100% metaphorically correct as it was intended to be read.


So what is the metaphorical meaning behind killing the humans who were part angel, and lots of animals (no reason given), and what is the metaphorical message Christians have been deriving from it?

searching12 said:

This universe did not exist before the Big Bang.

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What makes you so sure?

searching12 said:

There may be other universes too we don't know about, though.

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Agreed.

MorkandMindy said:

I never could get those Liberal Christian half way positions; the Bible isn't factually accurate but it is 100% metaphorically correct as it was intended to be read.


So what is the metaphorical meaning behind killing the humans who were part angel, and lots of animals (no reason given), and what is the metaphorical message Christians have been deriving from it?

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That God saves the good, and punishes the bad?

Wiccan_Child said:

That God saves the good, and punishes the bad?

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Sounds good to me, that's one down about 4,000 to go:

what is the metaphorical meaning behind this well known passage:

'Her hand reached for the tent peg,
her right hand for the workman's hammer.
She struck Sisera, she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.' Judges 5 26

MorkandMindy said:

Sounds good to me, that's one down about 4,000 to go:

what is the metaphorical meaning behind this well known passage:

'Her hand reached for the tent peg,
her right hand for the workman's hammer.
She struck Sisera, she crushed his head,
she shattered and pierced his temple.' Judges 5 26

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Looks to me like it's a depiction of actual events, rather than a metaphor.

Thanks for that, maybe if you can do the rest of it you will become the first person in history to produce a theology that fits in with the entire Bible


I know there's no Noble Prize in theology but from all the conflicts you'd resolve you would get the peace prize.

We wouldn't need this evolution primer thread if Gen 1 was simpler:

In the beginning ... God made everything we see: the plants, animals, areas of land, the sky and the seas...

by leaving out the days and not setting a clear cut sequence we wouldn't have problems with fossil sequence and dating.

could be the explanation for all the matter and energy in the universe, especially since the universe began as a singularity. There's a web link on my blog if you want to read more.

I am going to take you in a brief detour. These are true stories from my life and could not have occured with out there being a God. Evolution is not sufficient to explain them.


One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice say "How would you like to be stabbed in the Valley". The Valley was the rough end of town, and the voice scared me a little, I wondered if I had done something to offend God. I had planned to go down to the Valley to ask people out to church as was my habit at the time. In the end I went anyway regardles of the fear. I walked up to the first person I met and asked him if he would like to go out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist, I don't believe in God". I just said "fine", but hoped to change his mind. He then proceeded to unbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks up and down his chest and stomach. He said to me, "I was attacked by a knife weilding man in the Valley some time ago and spent months recovering in hospital, How could God allow that to happen to me". Then I knew why God had said in the morning "How would I like to be stabbed?". God understood this man, but had a good plan for him. Some weeks latter this man came out to church and became a Christian.

Some time after the second Gulf War an Australian man Douglas Wood was capured by terrorists in Iraq, who made demands for a ransom or he would be executed. I set about fasting and praying for his release, I said to God "You know where he is....tell me". Three words entered my mind ABC, Bizaar and "A-meal". I thought "I am going crazy what has all that got to do with him. Bizaar I though "this is Bizarre". I thought maybe "A-meal" is a town so I searched a map of Iraq for a town of that name, but found nothing that really matched. Some time latter Douglas Wood was freed by US troops who came across his captors. It was not until latter that I actually discovered what the three words ment. I was on a forum libertyunites.us and came across a post by a user called ABC in the post she appealed to the captors to release Douglas Wood because he had gone to a/or the Bazaar and bought food for homless people and had provided them with "A-meal". I believe God saw this action too and blessed Douglas Wood with an escape from his captors.

One time I thought about sueing some one but felt bad about it because I did not want to give a bad impression about what a Christian is like. SO I prayed and asked God to show me clearly what to do. Latter that day I opened my bible at random, selecting a random verse and it opened to 1Co 6:7 "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?" So I knew what God was thinking, no lawsuite.

At one point in my life I was praying for scientific cures for illnesses like cancer. Because I was on a science kick I thought would it not be fun to create a real life dinosour. I wanted Jesus just for fun to show me how to create a Real Live Dinosaur, he can show us anything you know if he wants, but when I asked him how to start recreating a Dinosaur. Jesus spoke into my head the sentance "I bood", it entered my mind when I was awake, a term I had never heard before. I decieded to look it up on the Internet and I found out the following: You see, the children of Semai are taught from an early age, the concept of "bood." If a parent asks a child to do something and the child replies "I bood," in other words, "I don't feel like doing that," the matter is closed. Bood means gently No.

One day I was witnessing to a Muslum and he asked me why we ate pork. I used the verse out of the bible which says "It is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out of the mouth". After some general discussion I finished for the night. I asked God to give me a verse from the bible to encourage me. I opened the bible at random and selected a random verse. It opened to the exact same verse that I had used with the Muslum. The one about food not defiling. So I knew that God was approving of what I had been talking about.
"What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him "unclean.'"- Mat 15:11

No offence, but those anecdotes boil down to a) flipping open the Bible to a random verse and fitting it to your situation, and b) hearing voices give vague, fragmented words in your head which you subjectively interpret to fit local events ("sometime later" indeed).

So, what makes you think any of them couldn't be explained without God?

Wiccan_Child said:

No offence, but those anecdotes boil down to a) flipping open the Bible to a random verse and fitting it to your situation, and b) hearing voices give vague, fragmented words in your head which you subjectively interpret to fit local events ("sometime later" indeed).

So, what makes you think any of them couldn't be explained without God?

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Lam 3:22 Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail.
Lam 3:23 They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness.