Evolution or Intelligent Design?

[Astrid]

You think plasma is conducive to life?

After it calms down a bit.

 

[dlamberth]

Or maybe life evolved to use the elements that were already being made by the various processes going on throughout the universe.

Which still sounds like the Universe is pretty supportive of life to me.

 

[Kylie]

Which still sounds like the Universe is pretty supportive of life to me.

Given that the only kind of life we know of can't exist throughout most of the universe, I don't think that's true.

 

[dlamberth]

Given that the only kind of life we know of can't exist throughout most of the universe, I don't think that's true.

Different perspectives of what supports life. Clearly life here on earth would not have happened without help from the Universe. I just don't see how that's not supportive of life.

 

[Kylie]

Different perspectives of what supports life. Clearly life here on earth would not have happened without help from the Universe. I just don't see how that's not supportive of life.

Would you like to provide a specific definition of life that you believe finds the majority of the universe suitable to exist in?

Also, the universe was not helping life to get started, that implies some intent and/or agency on behalf of the universe that just doesn't exist.

Finally, the fact that there are some parts of the universe that are not immediately hostile to life doesn't mean that we can say the universe is supportive of life.

 

[SelfSim]

Would you like to provide a specific definition of life that you believe finds the majority of the universe suitable to exist in?

Let's see .. hmm .. I know! .. Pick-a-species!
(Mind you .. depends on which letter of the alphabet one chooses!)

 

[dlamberth]

Would you like to provide a specific definition of life that you believe finds the majority of the universe suitable to exist in?

I think we are talking pass each other. Duality and Non-Duality.

The words I was responding where "the universe supports life". So for example, the Sun supports life forms here on Earth. No life could exist on Earth with out the sun. In the same way, we are made of star matter created out in the Universe somewhere. Without that process, we would not be here. All of that material manufactured out in the Universe is just as much a part part of life here in Earth as is the Sun a part of that process.

I'm not saying that the sun and stars are a life forms. I'm saying that they "support life" by their activity. And so is a part of life.

Also, the universe was not helping life to get started, that implies some intent and/or agency on behalf of the universe that just doesn't exist.

Nope, it doesn't imply anything other than life by it's nature is creative. I creates all sorts of diversity in many ways.

Finally, the fact that there are some parts of the universe that are not immediately hostile to life doesn't mean that we can say the universe is supportive of life.

It's those hostile process that manufacture the stuff we are made of. We would not exist otherwise.

 

[SelfSim]

In the same way, we are made of star matter created out in the Universe somewhere.

Without that process, we would not be here. All of that material manufactured out in the Universe is just as much a part part of life here in Earth as is the Sun a part of that process.

I'm pretty sure I was made locally.

I'm not saying that the sun and stars are a life forms. I'm saying that they "support life" by their activity. And so is a part of life.

The Sun supports life on Earth .. sure.

Nope, it doesn't imply anything other than life by it's nature is creative. It creates all sorts of diversity in many ways.

That's you saying that though, right? Ie: not nature saying that, eh?

It's those hostile process that manufacture the stuff we are made of. We would not exist otherwise.

How would you possibly know that ... if we did not exist to conclude that?

 

[dlamberth]

I'm pretty sure I was made locally.

Yes, manufactured locally, but with the elements that came to become your physical body were all made out in the Universe somewhere.

The Sun supports life on Earth .. sure.

And to me that means it's part of Life here on Earth.

That's you saying that though, right? Ie: not nature saying that, eh?

Look around, nature is very creative in what it births. There seems to be infinite possibilities.

How would you possibly know that ... if we did not exist to conclude that?

From one perspective, being that we are made of the stuff of the Universe, it's kind of like the Universe experiencing and being aware of itSelf.

 

[SelfSim]

Yes, manufactured locally, but with the elements that came to become your physical body were all made out in the Universe somewhere.

The elements that make up my physical body are distributed in various locations throughout the universe .. and in many cases, comprise non-living matter .. so what's your point again?

And to me that means it's part of Life here on Earth.

Ok .. but I'm not sure how that helps us in understanding why life doesn't exist in the center of a star in a distant (or local) galaxy though(?)

Look around, nature is very creative in what it births. There seems to be infinite possibilities.

.. and I note its you saying that again .. (?)

From one perspective, being that we are made of the stuff of the Universe, it's kind of like the Universe experiencing and being aware of itSelf.

Again, I note that, observably, .. that's what you're saying.
I can't do much with that though .. lotsa people say lotsa stuff, y'know(?) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[dlamberth]

The elements that make up my physical body are distributed in various locations throughout the universe .. and in many cases, comprise non-living matter .. so what's your point again?

...That we are made of the stuff of the Universe that came together to birth life here on Earth. I think its kind of cool.

Ok .. but I'm not sure how that helps us in understanding why life doesn't exist in the center of a star in a distant (or local) galaxy though(?)

I'm looking at what comes together to make life here on this planet. Every single bit of it is sourced beyond the Earth. But also, to your question about life not existing IN the center of a star, isn't it a bit too hot for that to happen? At the same time, who knows, but someday the elements manufactured by that star just might birth life elsewhere on another planet. Life is pretty pervasive, so who knows? But wouldn't that make that star a part of life than?

.. and I note its you saying that again .. (?)

Look around...what do you see? I see a lot of diversity here on this planet. Not only that, but science has opened up the window to the vast variety and diversity of stars out in the Cosmos. Perhaps your don't see that diversity, was that your point?

Again, I note that, observably, .. that's what you're saying.
I can't do much with that though .. lotsa people say lotsa stuff, y'know(?) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's a conscious awareness sort of thing that people who tend towards non-dualistic talk about. I understand it's a different thought pattern here in this forum and that you might not get it. In my world though, one comes across the idea of the Universe being aware of itSelf through Human consciousness fairly often. It goes like this, we are made of the stuff of the Universe. And, we are aware of the Universe. Thus, we are the Universe being aware of itSelf. Stretching out your conscious awareness like that might not be your thing, which I do understand. But it is a thing for a lot of people.

 

[Kylie]

I think we are talking pass each other. Duality and Non-Duality.

The words I was responding where "the universe supports life". So for example, the Sun supports life forms here on Earth. No life could exist on Earth with out the sun. In the same way, we are made of star matter created out in the Universe somewhere. Without that process, we would not be here. All of that material manufactured out in the Universe is just as much a part part of life here in Earth as is the Sun a part of that process.

I'm not saying that the sun and stars are a life forms. I'm saying that they "support life" by their activity. And so is a part of life.


Nope, it doesn't imply anything other than life by it's nature is creative. I creates all sorts of diversity in many ways.


It's those hostile process that manufacture the stuff we are made of. We would not exist otherwise.

Do you agree that the vast majority of the universe is made of environments in which life would be impossible?

Do you agree that life could have evolved to suit the conditions that already existed, rather than the conditions being determined in order to meet the goal of allowing life to survive?

 

[SelfSim]

...That we are made of the stuff of the Universe that came together to birth life here on Earth. I think its kind of cool.

If it helps, I do think the distinctions we make between our immediate surroundings and ourselves, are fundamentally artificial .. and we should remember that when contemplating exo-environments.

When some probe is sitting on some unexplored planet or moon, any readings it takes have to be contextualised within that environment for those readings to acquire any particularly useful objective meaning. Its not good enough to form conclusions about new discoveries in vastly dissimilar physical and geological environments from Earth's, based on our own familiarity with Earth's. (Unless a big tongue comes up and licks a camera or something, of course).

We're already aware of the vast diversity of environments amongst just our own solar system's planet and moons .. and we're just beginning to understand how that diversity can radically alter what we're more familiar with, from our own Earthly experience.

I don't think this is completely unknown to Astrobiologists. There are very good reasons why so much effort and time is dedicated to studying the geology/landscape on say, Mars for example, prior to forming conclusions about any so-called 'pre-biotics', which may, or may not, be found there.

I do not agree with your view that the Universe is tuned to support our existence.
What I do agree with is simply: that we do not know .. and we should stop making up stories in the absence of that knowledge (and our impatience in waiting for it).

 

[dlamberth]

Do you agree that the vast majority of the universe is made of environments in which life would be impossible?

I agree the life forms would be impossible.
Though that vastness is still a part of life just as the suns rays and the air we swim in are a part of life.

Do you agree that life could have evolved to suit the conditions that already existed, rather than the conditions being determined in order to meet the goal of allowing life to survive?

I agree that life forms evolved in said conditions.
Life does not have a "goal". If there's any trajectory of the creativity that life is, I'd say it's in the evolution of consciousness. But that's just my opinion based on what I see.

 

[dlamberth]

I do not agree with your view that the Universe is tuned to support our existence.

To be clear, I did I imply that the Universe is "tuned" to support our existence. If that's what came across, my apologies. But the Universe is creative. And as we see here on Earth, the Universe knows how to make life.

What I do agree with is simply: that we do not know .. and we should stop making up stories in the absence of that knowledge (and our impatience in waiting for it).

I totally agree.
But what do we do if for example a person has knowledge and understanding of something that another person doesn't have. And that person, because of lack of knowledge and understanding stands in the way with doubt and skepticism?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

After it calms down a bit.

IOW when it's not plasma...

 

[Astrid]

IOW when it's not plasma...

Of course,, my earlier comment was poorly phrssed

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think it's fair to say that the universe (obviously) contains the elements necessary for life as we know it, but volumetrically is almost completely hostile to the formation and maintenance of life as we know it.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think it's fair to say that the universe (obviously) contains the elements necessary for life as we know it, but volumetrically is almost completely hostile to the formation and maintenance of life as we know it.

I disagree ... but since you said "life as we* know it," I understand where you're coming from.

* Present company excluded, of course.

 

[Astrid]

I think it's fair to say that the universe (obviously) contains the elements necessary for life as we know it, but volumetrically is almost completely hostile to the formation and maintenance of life as we know it.

Try for a percent. Are there enough zeros?