Evolution, one more argument against

[Phoneman-777]

?? That's like telling me that a box isn't big, it's red.

No, it's actually like telling you that top, well respected evolutionists like Dr. Stephen J. Gould admit the atheistic scientific community's conclusion of the existence of an "evolutionary tree of life" is based solely on inference, not the fossil record:

"The family trees that adorn our textbooks are based on inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of the fossils."

Every conclusion that's based on evidence is also based on inference.

Mr. Gould would've liked to have had a word with you...but he's busy taking a 1,000 year dirt nap.

You need to work on your understanding of English vocabulary. The first definition that comes up when googling for 'inference:

No, my vocabulary is fine. However, you should brush up on reading comprehension, seeing that your stubborn claim that evolutionary trees of life that adorn textbooks are based on evidence is proven false by the testimony of the highest of high priest proselytizers of the evolutionary faithful.

 

[BPPLEE]

No. Man evolved from primordial or archaic sapiens.

The Bible describes ancient near east cosmology and is not a science textbook.

Below the firmament, who's grounding I have made firm, a house I shall build, let it be the abode of my pleasure. Within it I shall establish It's holy place, I shall appoint my holy chambers, I shall establish my kingship.

Your chamber shall be our stopping place, we shall find rest therein

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!
Psalms 148:4

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the expanse that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:27‭-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

View attachment 325950

Dome is the result of a bad translation

 

[expos4ever]

Surely you know man didn't come from either of them. Nor from pond scum, nor from any other explanation of millions of years of magickal transformation from one species to another.

It is deeply misleading to characterize the mechanism of evolution by natural selection as "magickal (sic)".

 

[expos4ever]

"Inference" - that which comes from the mind alone - is no evidence at all.

You are not accurately representing what the term "inference" means.

 

[expos4ever]

You do realize that the greatest minds of evolution have openly admitted that your supposed "Tree of Life" scenario is "based on inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of the fossils", right?

What, exactly, does Mr. Gould say that challenges evolution? Here is something from Wikipedia:

In evolutionary theory he opposed strict selectionism, sociobiology as applied to humans, and evolutionary psychology. He campaigned against creationism...

I know almost nothing about evolution but this statement, if true, implies that, yes, he had some differences with with "orthodox" evolutionary thinking. But it is equally clear that he rejects creationism.

And here is something from the reputable publication "Nature" (Stephen Jay Gould (1941–2002) - Nature)

Gould considers the main challenges to Darwin: that evolution is hierarchical, operating not only on genes but on species; that natural selection is not the only engine of evolution; and that major perturbations — catastrophic events — influence the fate of groups.

Again, I know very little about evolution, but if the above is to believed, he did not challenge the basic idea that we "evolved".

Besides, you are, I suggest, posting as though this one man's deviation from orthodox evolutionary theory is just cause for doubting the whole ball of wax. Maybe he was mistaken, even though he is an expert.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Dome is the result of a bad translation

Gravity: another reason to reject Flat Earth theories.

Flat Earthers claim gravity is generated by the flat earth accelerating through space at "9.8 meters/sec2" with the top of the "dome" first (similar to an ice cream cone held out a car window with the vanilla scoop facing into the wind and the skinny part of the cone pointing behind), based on the fact that objects fall to the ground at that rate of acceleration, and the effects of gravity are felt in much the same way g-force pushes a person backward into his seat in an accelerating car.

Problem:

If the Earth starting accelerating at "9.8 meters/sec 2" the moment it came from the hand of God, it would reach light speed - which is the fastest speed of travel possible - at some point and stop accelerating and merely maintain cruising at light speed, and gravity would disappear, in the same way how when a car stops accelerating and simply maintains cruising speed, g-force disappears and a person is no longer pressed back into their seat.

How long should it take for the Earth to reach light speed from the hand of God? Thousands of years? Millions of years?

About 11 months. So, why aren't we floating around and banging our heads on the "dome" since gravity shoudl have long since disappeared? Probably because gravity has nothing to do with a flat earth accelerating through space.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You are not accurately representing what the term "inference" means.

Man, I'd hate for you to sit on a jury where the prosecuting attorney tells you "there's no evidence Phoneman is guilty, but we have inferred that he is, so we're asking you to render a guilty verdict".

 

[Phoneman-777]

What, exactly, does Mr. Gould say that challenges evolution? Here is something from Wikipedia:

In evolutionary theory he opposed strict selectionism, sociobiology as applied to humans, and evolutionary psychology. He campaigned against creationism...

I know almost nothing about evolution but this statement, if true, implies that, yes, he had some differences with with "orthodox" evolutionary thinking. But it is equally clear that he rejects creationism.

And here is something from the reputable publication "Nature" (Stephen Jay Gould (1941–2002) - Nature)

Gould considers the main challenges to Darwin: that evolution is hierarchical, operating not only on genes but on species; that natural selection is not the only engine of evolution; and that major perturbations — catastrophic events — influence the fate of groups.

Again, I know very little about evolution, but if the above is to believed, he did not challenge the basic idea that we "evolved".

I'm not arguing Gould is a born again Christian - of course he's an evolutionist. I'm arguing against the Phyletic Gradualism of post #105.

Besides, you are, I suggest, posting as though this one man's deviation from orthodox evolutionary theory is just cause for doubting the whole ball of wax. Maybe he was mistaken, even though he is an expert.

Let's be clear...this isn't "one man's opinion" at all...it's the opinion of a man who represents the very top echelon of evolutionary thinkers and knows a thing or two about the theory.

And, if he openly admits that no evidence for Phyletic Gradualism's "evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks" can be found in the fossil record - the very record from which the entire idea of Phyletic Gradualism stems - what business do Christians have replacing God's Edenic Tree of Life with a version of one that is "based on inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of the fossils"?

 

[expos4ever]

Man, I'd hate for you to sit on a jury where the prosecuting attorney tells you "there's no evidence Phoneman is guilty, but we have inferred that he is, so we're asking you to render a guilty verdict".

Again, you are misrepresenting the meaning of the word "inferred". Its meaning most certainly does not necessarily indicate the absence of evidence:

to derive by reasoning; conclude or judge from premises or evidence:They inferred his displeasure from his cool tone of voice.
(of facts, circumstances, statements, etc.) to indicate or involve as a conclusion; lead to.
to guess; speculate; surmise.
to hint; imply; suggest.

As a neutral reader will clearly see, "inference" can indeed be based on evidence.

 

[sfs]

No, it's actually like telling you that top, well respected evolutionists like Dr. Stephen J. Gould admit the atheistic scientific community's conclusion of the existence of an "evolutionary tree of life" is based solely on inference, not the fossil record:

"The family trees that adorn our textbooks are based on inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of the fossils."

Well, that's what you're trying to tell me, but what you're actually conveying is that you're getting your information from creationist misrepresentation of Gould. Tell me, in your own words, what point Gould was making when he wrote that. (Hint: if you think Gould believed or said that common descent was not based on evidence, you have no clue at all about this subject.)

No, my vocabulary is fine.

You don't know what the word 'inference' means. When presented with clear evidence that your understanding of the word is wrong, you just plow ahead anyway. Do you have any concern for truth and accuracy at all?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Again, you are misrepresenting the meaning of the word "inferred". Its meaning most certainly does not necessarily indicate the absence of evidence:

to derive by reasoning; conclude or judge from premises or evidence:They inferred his displeasure from his cool tone of voice.
(of facts, circumstances, statements, etc.) to indicate or involve as a conclusion; lead to.
to guess; speculate; surmise.
to hint; imply; suggest.

As a neutral reader will clearly see, "inference" can indeed be based on evidence.

Where did I say that inference necessarily is the absence of evidence?

I can infer English is your first language by evidence of your word choice and sentence structure.
I can infer you're a dog owner by evidence of your avatar picture.
I can infer you've been educated by evidence of your ability to use reference materials.

I'm saying in this case their inferences about the fossil record are not based on the evidence of the fossil record, OK? IN THIS CASE.

Now, can we dispense with this bulldookey and focus on the topic? I know why they can't point to the fossil record evidence for such a tree, and I know why many evolutionists like JY Chen believe in an "evolutionary lawn" instead of an "evolutionary tree". Would you like learn why, or do you want continue distracting from far more weightier matters?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well, that's what you're trying to tell me, but what you're actually conveying is that you're getting your information from creationist misrepresentation of Gould.

No, I quoted the man's own words, and he's definitely not making any "creationist misrepresentations".

Tell me, in your own words, what point Gould was making when he wrote that. (Hint: if you think Gould believed or said that common descent was not based on evidence, you have no clue at all about this subject.)

It's not my job to defend Gould or evolutionists, only to accurately state their positions, which I've done so that you and anyone else who may be pointing to the fossil record as "evidence" for Phyletic Gradualism may stop doing so at once, understand?

You don't know what the word 'inference' means.

Yes I do.

When presented with clear evidence that your understanding of the word is wrong, you just plow ahead anyway.

When presented with testimony of top evolutionists that the fossil record is not evidence for Phyletic Gradualism, but is based solely on inference, you should accept that and plan to never point to the fossil record as evidence for Phyletic Gradualism, got it?

Do you have any concern for truth and accuracy at all?

Of course, which is why I'm a Creationist who hasn't fallen victim to the satanic deception of evolution.

*****ATTENTION MODERATORS: PLEASE READ THIS DISCLAIMER*****​

I call it "satanic evolution" based on the evidence testimony of Christian author and speaker Roger Morneau, a former demon worshiper who was present as a demon worship society meeting and heard his satanic High Priest reveal that Satan called a General Council in the 18th century and formulated a plan to, among other things, "destroy the Bible without burning it" by introducing into the world evolutionary science as a means to undermine the Creation and Redemption story of Scripture:

 

[expos4ever]

I call it "satanic evolution" based on the evidence testimony of Christian author and speaker Roger Morneau, a former demon worshiper who was present as a demon worship society meeting and heard his satanic High Priest reveal that Satan called a General Council in the 18th century and formulated a plan to, among other things, "destroy the Bible without burning it" by introducing into the world evolutionary science as a means to undermine the Creation and Redemption story of Scripture:

Consider what you are asking readers to believe: you are asking them to believe that the testimony of one man - a former demon worshipper at that - trumps the findings of (probably) tens of thousands of trained scientific experts.

Even more astonishing is that you are expecting readers to ascribe credibility to the claims of, yes, a satanic high priest.

In summary, you have arrived at your position (that evolution is a satanic plot) based on the say-so of a former demon worshipper (Morneau) testifying to a claim he heard from the lips of a satanic high priest.

Talk about low-hanging fruit......

 

[Phoneman-777]

Consider what you are asking readers to believe: you are asking them to believe that the testimony of one man - a former demon worshipper at that - trumps the findings of (probably) tens of thousands of trained scientific experts.

Even more astonishing is that you are expecting readers to ascribe credibility to the claims of, yes, a satanic high priest.

In summary, you have arrived at your position (that evolution is a satanic plot) based on the say-so of a former demon worshipper (Morneau) testifying to a claim he heard from the lips of a satanic high priest.

Talk about low-hanging fruit......

Words cannot express how deeply I believe and trust Roger Morneau's testimony as truth. The man went on to join the Christian church and wrote several powerful books on prayer and his devotion to God in his worldwide prayer ministry brought about inexplicable health and relationship miracles in the lives of many people around the world.

From what I've seen, all you've done is try to convince Christians to doubt the Bible's plain, literal account of a six day creation and a seventh day rest to commemorate it.

 

[sfs]

No, I quoted the man's own words, and he's definitely not making any "creationist misrepresentations".

You quoted some of his words (you did know that words were missing from the middle of the sentence, right?) and didn't quote any of the context.

It's not my job to defend Gould or evolutionists, only to accurately state their positions, which I've done so that you and anyone else who may be pointing to the fossil record as "evidence" for Phyletic Gradualism may stop doing so at once, understand?

Quoting Gould to attack phyletic gradualism is fine. Quoting Gould to attack the existence of the tree of life (i.e. to attack common descent) is thoroughly wrong. Gould never questioned the overwhelming evidence for common descent; what he did question was our knowledge of the precise evolutionary relationships between specific species. Do you agree?

 

[Phoneman-777]

You quoted some of his words (you did know that words were missing from the middle of the sentence, right?) and didn't quote any of the context.

The quote I included is sufficient to express Gould's belief the fossil record is no evidence for evolutionary trees of life, but are merely based o inference, and you need to stop with the butthurtness and just accept the fact that a major player on your evolutionary team can't be counted on when it's 4th down and 20 to go.

Quoting Gould to attack phyletic gradualism is fine. Quoting Gould to attack the existence of the tree of life (i.e. to attack common descent) is thoroughly wrong.

Do you even hear what your saying? Of course I'm firmly within the right to attack the popular claim that "evolutionary trees of life are supported by the evidence of the fossil record" with quotes from top evolutionists like Gould that argue the exact opposite!

Gould never questioned the overwhelming evidence for common descent;

I NEVER SAID HE DID. Let's try to keep up, shall we?

 

[Job 33:6]

Dome is the result of a bad translation

Too bad the context remains the same, even if you change the words.

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

 

[Job 33:6]

Too bad the context remains the same, even if you change the words.

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

thefirmament

Below the firmament, who's grounding I have made firm, a house I shall build, let it be the abode of my pleasure. Within it I shall establish It's holy place, I shall appoint my holy chambers, I shall establish my kingship.

Your chamber shall be our stopping place, we shall find rest therein

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Job 26:10

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!
Psalms 148:4

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the expanse that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:27‭-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

he will wind a winding tightly around you like a ball, to a wide land. There you shall die, and there the chariots of your splendor will be, disgrace to your master’s house!
Isaiah 22:18
(notice that the word "ball" is used here, so when the Bible talks about the circle upon the face of the deep (Isaiah 40:22 or Job 26:10, if could have described earth as a ball if the author intended such meaning, but they didnt).

He raises up the poor from the dust. From the ash heap he lifts up the needy, to cause them to sit with noble people and to cause them to inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth belong to Yahweh and he has set the inhabited world on them.
1 Samuel 2:8

“Where were you at my laying the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you possess understanding. Who determined its measurement? Yes, you do know. Or who stretched the measuring line upon it? On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:4‭-‬6

The earth and all its inhabitants are shaking; I steady its columns. Selah
Psalms 75:3 LEB

To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His faithfulness is everlasting;
Psalms 136:6 NAS

“For the waves of death encompassed me; The floods of destruction terrified me; The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted m
2 Samuel 22:5‭-‬6 NAS

¶The ropes of death encompassed me, And the torrents of destruction terrified me. The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted m
Psalms 18:4‭-‬5 NAS

“They spend their days in prosperity, And suddenly they go down to Sheo
Job 21:13 NAS

“He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the garbage heap To seat them with nobles, And He gives them a seat of honor as an inheritance; For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, And He set the world on the
1 Samuel 2:8 NAS

¶“The departed spirits are made to tremble Under the waters and their inhabitant
Job 26:5 NAS

“The pillars of heaven tremble And are amazed at His rebuk
Job 26:11 NAS

The ropes of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me. “Then the earth shook and quaked, The foundations of heaven were trembling And were shaken, because He was angr
2 Samuel 22:6‭, ‬8 NAS

“Sheol below is excited about you, to meet you when you come; It stirs the spirits of the dead for you, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their throne
Isaiah 14:9 NAS

Then all his sons and all his daughters got up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. And he said, “Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son.” So his father wept for hi
Genesis 37:35 NASB202

Yet He commanded the clouds above And opened the doors of heave
Psalms 78:23 NAS

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the measuring line over it? “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerston
Job 38:4‭-‬6 NAS

¶He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not move forever and ever and ever
Psalms 104:5 NASB

 

[sfs]

The quote I included is sufficient to express Gould's belief the fossil record is no evidence for evolutionary trees of life, but are merely based o inference, and you need to stop with the butthurtness and just accept the fact that a major player on your evolutionary team can't be counted on when it's 4th down and 20 to go.

Do you even hear what your saying? Of course I'm firmly within the right to attack the popular claim that "evolutionary trees of life are supported by the evidence of the fossil record" with quotes from top evolutionists like Gould that argue the exact opposite!

So no, you don't know what the context was, what Gould was actually arguing, and (more importantly) you don't care. I'll just leave you with Gould's own comments about this issue:

[T]ransitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common -- and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim.

Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am -- for I have become a major target of these practices.

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.

 

[IoanC]

When you invoke anything other than God's will, authority and power, God might dislike it. It's not just that God knows that He is the only reality that is self-existent and can generate other existences, but He also has certain attributes such as being Persons, Living, Holy. So, you have to ask yourself whether you want to risk being judged by God, and waste your time generating an infinite progression (or so). Just how an infinite progression of events is a problem intended for the Christian, a Righteous and Personal God is a problem for the atheist or even creationist. God would like to know, firstly, if you simply comply with Him; your line of reasoning is not important to God because it glorifies yourself.