Evolution of whales

[rjw]

Gidday Dad,



Thanks for your reply.

Good question. But, assuming a creation and the kind of growing conditions, and things then, with the merge, would it really matter?

Yes it does matter. In science, it is the answers to questions such as this which determine which theories are fruitful and which are not.

Your method of using your god can literally “explain” everything – not just macro evolution but also micro evolution on the finest scale. It can also “explain” how the sun shines, how the weather occurs, how chemicals interact, how we get sick etc. etc.

But this is not science – unless you can provide evidence for the existence of your god and evidence for how your god behaves.

Everything you have said to date shows that you cannot do this.

Certainly this god and how he/she behaves are all a part of your faith. However just as your god is not used in explaining the weather, chemical interactions, adaptation, stellar energy generation, sickness etc – so he/she is not used to explain the broad patterns in life e.g. macroevolution.

Problem is, this is against the bible, (God made us and them) and science does not lead us there either. So what's left? Someone's opinion. I must admit, I think there were a few tidbits in there (if this was the guy I'm thinking of) where there were drawings in south america seen only from the sky, that make for interesting speculation, as to flight in the old world.

Do you reject all of modern meteorology because it is against the Bible (read Job 37)?

Or do you argue that the author of Job really meant something different to a literal meaning? If so, then why change in your standard/method of interpretation across two books of the bible?



Regards, Roland

 

[dad]

Your method of using your god can literally “explain” everything – not just macro evolution but also micro evolution on the finest scale. It can also “explain” how the sun shines, how the weather occurs, how chemicals interact, how we get sick etc. etc.

But this is not science – unless you can provide evidence for the existence of your god and evidence for how your god behaves.
[You mean physical evidence, of course. What about all these people who get healed? There is a physical body that got well. You say that the spiritual is not science, but that doesn't make it so. It is not part of the micky mouse part of science you know, perhaps, namely, physical only based science. But it is science.]

Everything you have said to date shows that you cannot do this.

Certainly this god and how he/she behaves are all a part of your faith. However just as your god is not used in explaining the weather, chemical interactions, adaptation, stellar energy generation, sickness etc – so he/she is not used to explain the broad patterns in life e.g. macroevolution.
[What are you on about now man? What do you want God to explain about the weather? Since the flood, we have settled in to our present patterns. Sickness? Soon, there will be no more, in heaven. Even now, we can be healed. And the mess we are in is a result of sin. Chemical reactions? Physical ones we know a bit about. Merged ones we will have opportunity to learn about, in due course. Evolution? God created all things, not evolution at all. Any changes subsequent to creation are built in. Stellar generation? What is it we now need to know about it? The furthest man can go is close planets to earth!]



Do you reject all of modern meteorology because it is against the Bible (read Job 37)?
[Ha. What I read in there does not seem to be what you see]

Or do you argue that the author of Job really meant something different to a literal meaning? If so, then why change in your standard/method of interpretation across two books of the bible?
[Well, I really don't know. Interesting angle. I glanced at it, and thought I noticed both in that chapter.
"17 How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind? " this seems to be about a normal warm wind.
"15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine" This seems to me to refer to something else?
". 10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened. 11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud: 12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth." This seems to speak to me about a time pre split, yet post flood, when nature was more in line with His will!?
"5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. " This seems to be the name of the game in this chapter.
"18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? " And this sounds to me, like it's talking about the crystal sea which surrounds New Jerusalem?!
But what do I know? I do not doubt His bible, or it's hidden wonders, in the least, however.]

Regards, Roland

.

 

[rjw]

Hi dad,

Sorry – a long one.

Also I appreciate your honesty. Many other posters, just disappear when questions are asked.

You mean physical evidence, of course.

Of course.

How can you have evidence that is not physical? Evidence is an observation, a collection of a datum, a measurement. How can evidence be otherwise?

What about all these people who get healed? There is a physical body that got well. You say that the spiritual is not science, but that doesn't make it so.

Well, unless you can provide some evidence that all can agree on as to the existence of the spiritual and the rules by which it operates as well as some of the methods by which it operates then your explanations are little more than just your faith.

I do not mean to knock it. You seem to be a nice person. You have answered me honestly (and not avoided me as some do.).

But it is “ just” your faith.

That is why I do not get drawn in on the existence of God in these arguments. I do not think that God or the supernatural exists but I cannot prove it. However, until someone can come up with evidence for its existence as well as the rules and principles by which it operates then frankly there is nothing we can do with the supernatural in a scientific sense – as a mode of explanation.

You might just as well argue that God causes the rain (and abandon meteorological theory) simply because you cannot say that he does not.

…. physical only based science. But it is science.

Well it is about the only thing we have at the moment that seems to work. I refer you back to my earlier question about micro evolution. If you wish to invoke God for macro evolution, then why not micro? You cannot exclude him from there either.

What are you on about now man? What do you want God to explain about the weather?

Yes! If you are serious about your use of God wrt macro evolution then I come back to my question re micro evolution. Why not use him there as well? Ditto the weather. Ditto the sun. Ditto sickness. (It is irrelevant to our current explanations of sickness that one day we will be in heaven!).

If you know enough about the supernatural to be able to use him for some things then why have you excluded him from other things?

This exclusion is, as far as I can see, an arbitrary choice that you make.

Since the flood,…

Where is your evidence for this?

For both of us to be able to talk about this, you need to provide me with good physical evidence for the Flood. “The Bible says so” is not good physical evidence – any more than is The Epic of Gilgamesh saying that the gods caused the earth to be created as an outcome of their heavenly and supernatural battles in which their blood was spilt.

…we have settled in to our present patterns.

Where is your evidence for this?

Chemical reactions? Physical ones we know a bit about.

Do we? It is easy to argue that we have the wrong explanation – quantum mechanics, electron bonding etc. be damned - “God does it”. That is 2H2 + O2 = 2H2O because “the spirit separates out from hydrogen and oxygen atoms causing them to decay and fall apart. The spirit then rejoins but in the process allows the oxygen to merge with the hydrogen – causing water”.

But we know about quantum mechanics and electron bonding. We do not know about spirit, let alone spirit separating out from matter. The first set of ideas are demonstrable and scientific. The second lot are not. They belong to faith.

Merged ones we will have opportunity to learn about, in due course.

Then when you have, come back and convince us. Until then you know nothing about it. None of us do. Other than yourself, we do not even know if spirit exists or whether it can separate from matter or remerge with it. This is all faith.

Evolution? God created all things, not evolution at all.

Where is your evidence that “God created all things”?

Any changes subsequent to creation are built in.

Sorry dad. But evidence please?

Stellar generation? What is it we now need to know about it?

We want to know how it occurs. We have a scientific theory. Do you think that the theory is correct?

The furthest man can go is close planets to earth!

I am not sure as to what the relevance of this is. We can see stars, measure radiation from them, measure particles coming from them etc.

Do you reject all of modern meteorology because it is against the Bible (read Job 37)?

Ha. What I read in there does not seem to be what you see

J 37:2-4 “Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth. He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth. After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency …”

J 37:6 “For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain …”

J 37:10 “By the breath of God frost is given, and the breadth of the waters is straightened.”

Or do you argue that the author of Job really meant something different to a literal meaning? If so, then why change in your standard/method of interpretation across two books of the bible?

Well, I really don't know. Interesting angle.

Thankyou.

I glanced at it, and thought I noticed both in that chapter.
"17 How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind? " this seems to be about a normal warm wind.

Yes, but unlike the verses I quoted above, here no mention is made of process or mechanism. Certainly it says “he quieteth the earth”. If you were to take the verses above as any guide then he would do so using a warm counter wind which derives from his breath.

With regard to macro evolution you use this kind of unsubstantiated reasoning. So why not run with Job’s ideas as expressed in the first few verses of chapter 37 and argue as I have just indicated?

This is the point I am trying to make.

"15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine" This seems to me to refer to something else?

I agree so I do not see how it is relevant as a counter to my argument.

". 10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened. 11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud: 12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth." This seems to speak to me about a time pre split, yet post flood, when nature was more in line with His will!?

Could be, but this is speculation on your part.

"5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. " This seems to be the name of the game in this chapter.

No matter what the game is, Job still makes the claim.

"18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass? " And this sounds to me, like it's talking about the crystal sea which surrounds New Jerusalem?!

Sorry dad, but this is pure speculation again.

But what do I know? I do not doubt His bible, or….

I do not doubt the fact that your faith is genuine. And I accept that you do not doubt your own interpretations. However I doubt the conclusions you derive from your interpretations.

I think that the Bible is a very complex set of books ranging from information which is totally irrelevant to us today, through to ideas which are still very relevant. Parts of it are badly written. Other parts are beautiful. Like so many good books, parts of it contain wisdom which were, are and always will be, most relevant to the human condition.

… it's hidden wonders, in the least, however

.

I doubt if you can claim that hidden things are “wonders”. On revelation, they could give you a nasty surprise.


Regards, Roland

 

[dad]

How can you have evidence that is not physical?

When Jesus rose from the dead, they had the physical evidence, as we often do, say, in healings. We, being not scientists, but witnesses. Other times we have dreams that come true, or touch us in a way we know is from God. No physical evidence here, unless you get some later when the thing is fulfilled, but this won't be in a lab. Seeing ghosts or angels, usually none either, but sometimes there is there as well, as when Mary had a baby as a result! Salvation of our souls requires no physical evidence, and it is spiritual, but we have evidence so often something has happened. etc

However, until someone can come up with evidence for its existence as well as the rules and principles by which it operates then frankly there is nothing we can do with the supernatural in a scientific sense

The rules and principles govern everything, except this little temporary prison of the physical only, and even here, to some extent. The spiritual can be locally applied anywhere, at any time, and change everything. But the wind blows where it wants, and we hear the sound, but can't say if it will change direction. It does not fit into a lab, or the physical only based principles that would like to predict it. At least the wind of the spiritual doesn't, even if we can somewhat predict the winds on earth.

You might just as well argue that God causes the rain (and abandon meteorological theory) simply because you cannot say that he does not.

Well, the physical system was set up here, and we can study the rules! The big thing is, He breaks those rules at leisure, as it suits Him. He could withold rain, for example, in response to someones fervent prayers. He can open the heavens, and have one hec of a flood, if needed as well! He can move a mountain, or continents! He can prolong life, shorten our days here, or even raise up the dead! He can have us walk on water even, or be transported physically to the other side of a sea somewhere! Etc. No, man's labs, and tests are so cavemanish to Him, it is called foolishness!

If you wish to invoke God for macro evolution, then why not micro? You cannot exclude him from there either.

I don't believe in any Godless old age evolution of any kind. I don't really know what the micro is, actually. Sounds small?

Yes! If you are serious about your use of God wrt macro evolution then I come back to my question re micro evolution. Why not use him there as well? Ditto the weather. Ditto the sun. Ditto sickness.

He can affect all these things (I don't know about the micro stuff, as I forget what it is supposed to be-all fairy tales to me, remember). But, normally, they just go their merry way, as He set it up.

Since the flood,





Where is your evidence for this?

The bible I accept as evidence, because it's God is alive and well and working. Also, I consider the seperation of the continents, water in our solar system, parts of the fossil record, population of earth now, and some things like this evidence. The so called evidence against it, has all been based on the physical only, and the belief this is all there was.

But we know about quantum mechanics and electron bonding. We do not know about spirit, let alone spirit separating out from matter. The first set of ideas are demonstrable and scientific. The second lot are not. They belong to faith

We know about a lot of things and how it was set up. We also know that His exceptions are the rule.

.. we do not even know if spirit exists or whether it can separate from matter or remerge with it

I agree, you do not know this. But you can't dispeove it, since it is true. Jesus raised from the dead and witnesses saw, handled, and touched Him. We know there is more.

Where is your evidence that God created all things?

We're here! And there is no other explanation of consequence, and He works, heals, answers prayer, gives dreams, spiritual trips. sends angels, and has a heaven that untold millions have had some dream of, or vision, etc.

We want to know how it occurs. We have a scientific theory. Do you think that the theory is correct?

You'd have to be more specific. I think it's safe to say you are missing a lot!

I am not sure as to what the relevance of this is. We can see stars, measure radiation from them, measure particles coming from them etc.

Only the physical only state they are now in, and even then, lets face it, they are too far away for man to really say much about.

If you were to take the verses above as any guide then he would do so using a warm counter wind which derives from his breath

You say you do not believe in the spiritual. I'm afraid we need God's help on things like this. I would suggest trying the born again prayer. Some things are beyond the mere mind of physical man.

So why not run with Job’s ideas as expressed in the first few verses of chapter 37 and argue as I have just indicated?

Because I don't read in there what you read. I think there is more than the weather being discussed.

15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine" This seems to me to refer to something else?





I agree so I do not see how it is relevant as a counter to my argument.

I don't assume it is the weather channel here. All we need to do is figure out what He is refering to in each different verse, and the spirit of it.

No matter what the game is, Job still makes the claim.

Of course he made the claim. But when did this happen? At the beginning of the world? In heaven? After the flood, during, or before? Or is it prophetic, and hasn't even happened yet. Time is no limitation at all for God, you know. Perhaps why, in the very verse you mention, it says "great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. "! [/quote]

Sorry dad, but this is pure speculation again

Actually, some deduction in here as well. Nowhere else I understand Him to talk about a crystal sea.

I think that the Bible is a very complex set of books ranging from information which is totally irrelevant to us today, through to ideas which are still very relevant. Parts of it are badly written. Other parts are beautiful. Like so many good books, parts of it contain wisdom which were, are and always will be, most relevant to the human condition.

Fair enough opinion, from someone who does not yet believe in the spiritual. Again, I suggest try it, you might like it, and the way to do this is by getting saved or born again. I have pasted the prayer, but in case you missed it, something like this one will do it.
" "DEAR JESUS, THANK YOU FOR DYING FOR ME! PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR ALL MY SINS, AND COME IN TO MY HEART NOW. TAKE ME TO HEAVEN WHEN I DIE, AND HELP ME TO SHARE YOUR LOVE WITH OTHERS. IN JESUS' NAME, I PRAY, AMEN"! "

I doubt if you can claim that hidden things are 'wonders'. On revelation, they could give you a nasty surprise.

Mt 13:52 - Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

 

[Nathan Poe]

When Jesus rose from the dead, they had the physical evidence, as we often do, say, in healings.

When David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty dissappear, we had physical evidence.

Other times we have dreams that come true, or touch us in a way we know is from God. No physical evidence here, unless you get some later when the thing is fulfilled, but this won't be in a lab.

I guess it would be a waste of time to explain the meaning of the word "coincidence."

Seeing ghosts or angels, usually none either, but sometimes there is there as well, as when Mary had a baby as a result!

1: Seeing ghosts or angels does not necessarily mean they are actually there. Ask anyone who's been to Woodstock.

2: As for mary having a baby, well, women can only pray for a husband that trusting...

Salvation of our souls requires no physical evidence, and it is spiritual, but we have evidence so often something has happened. etc

what sort of evidence?

The rules and principles govern everything, except this little temporary prison of the physical only, and even here, to some extent. The spiritual can be locally applied anywhere, at any time, and change everything.

Kind of like Aunt Tilly's nightdress; covers everything.

dad, how many creative ways can you answer a question with "Goddidit"?

But the wind blows where it wants, and we hear the sound, but can't say if it will change direction. It does not fit into a lab, or the physical only based principles that would like to predict it. At least the wind of the spiritual doesn't, even if we can somewhat predict the winds on earth.

So basically, the "Spiritual Winds" are utterly useless not onlyto physical only "Box" science, but to whatever brand of science you're advocating.

Well, the physical system was set up here, and we can study the rules! The big thing is, He breaks those rules at leisure, as it suits Him.

So there's absolutely no point in experimentations or in making predictions of any sort, since He can change the rules on a whim without warning.

How exactly is your science supposed to work under these conditions?

He could withold rain, for example, in response to someones fervent prayers. He can open the heavens, and have one hec of a flood, if needed as well! He can move a mountain, or continents! He can prolong life, shorten our days here, or even raise up the dead! He can have us walk on water even, or be transported physically to the other side of a sea somewhere! Etc. No, man's labs, and tests are so cavemanish to Him, it is called foolishness!

So when we see somethign happen which we cannot explain, how do we know if it's Him or just something normal we haven't figured out yet?

He can affect all these things (I don't know about the micro stuff, as I forget what it is supposed to be-all fairy tales to me, remember). But, normally, they just go their merry way, as He set it up.

But by your own admission, He could be grinding the gears right now for His own reasons.

The bible I accept as evidence, because it's God is alive and well and working.

Grammar note: ITS= possessive form; IT'S = IT IS
Your sentence actually reads: ". . .because it is God. . ."
I'm assuming this is unintentional, but you can't be sure...

Also, I consider the seperation of the continents, water in our solar system, parts of the fossil record, population of earth now, and some things like this evidence. The so called evidence against it, has all been based on the physical only, and the belief this is all there was.

So you counter it, you claim that God is intervening in any discovery which would otherwise falsify your claim.

We know about a lot of things and how it was set up. We also know that His exceptions are the rule.

So Goddidit, Goddoneit, Godisgonnakeepondoingit.
Does your version of science ever get beyond this?

I agree, you do not know this. But you can't dispeove it, since it is true.

Unless God's cooking the books to make you think it's true.

Or do you actually believe that He only bends the rules in your favor?

Jesus raised from the dead and witnesses saw, handled, and touched Him. We know there is more.

Jesus died? I wasn't aware of that. I only heard rumors...

We're here! And there is no other explanation of consequence, and He works, heals, answers prayer, gives dreams, spiritual trips. sends angels, and has a heaven that untold millions have had some dream of, or vision, etc.

But you've already provided another explation: God is bending the rules. The whole thing could be a massive fraud, and you'd have no way of testing it.

I have to stop here; it's just too depressing.

 

[rjw]

When Jesus rose from the dead, they had the physical evidence, as we often do, say, in healings. We, being not scientists, but witnesses. Other times we have dreams that come true, or touch us in a way we know is from God. No physical evidence here, unless you get some later when the thing is fulfilled, but this won't be in a lab. Seeing ghosts or angels, usually none either, but sometimes there is there as well, as when Mary had a baby as a result! Salvation of our souls requires no physical evidence, and it is spiritual, but we have evidence so often something has happened. etc

The rules and principles govern everything, except this little temporary prison of the physical only, and even here, to some extent. The spiritual can be locally applied anywhere, at any time, and change everything. But the wind blows where it wants, and we hear the sound, but can't say if it will change direction. It does not fit into a lab, or the physical only based principles that would like to predict it. At least the wind of the spiritual doesn't, even if we can somewhat predict the winds on earth.
Well, the physical system was set up here, and we can study the rules! The big thing is, He breaks those rules at leisure, as it suits Him. He could withold rain, for example, in response to someones fervent prayers. He can open the heavens, and have one hec of a flood, if needed as well! He can move a mountain, or continents! He can prolong life, shorten our days here, or even raise up the dead! He can have us walk on water even, or be transported physically to the other side of a sea somewhere! Etc. No, man's labs, and tests are so cavemanish to Him, it is called foolishness!
I don't believe in any Godless old age evolution of any kind. I don't really know what the micro is, actually. Sounds small?

He can affect all these things (I don't know about the micro stuff, as I forget what it is supposed to be-all fairy tales to me, remember). But, normally, they just go their merry way, as He set it up.

The bible I accept as evidence, because it's God is alive and well and working. Also, I consider the seperation of the continents, water in our solar system, parts of the fossil record, population of earth now, and some things like this evidence. The so called evidence against it, has all been based on the physical only, and the belief this is all there was.
We know about a lot of things and how it was set up. We also know that His exceptions are the rule.
I agree, you do not know this. But you can't dispeove it, since it is true. Jesus raised from the dead and witnesses saw, handled, and touched Him. We know there is more.

We're here! And there is no other explanation of consequence, and He works, heals, answers prayer, gives dreams, spiritual trips. sends angels, and has a heaven that untold millions have had some dream of, or vision, etc.

You'd have to be more specific. I think it's safe to say you are missing a lot!
Only the physical only state they are now in, and even then, lets face it, they are too far away for man to really say much about.

You say you do not believe in the spiritual. I'm afraid we need God's help on things like this. I would suggest trying the born again prayer. Some things are beyond the mere mind of physical man.
Because I don't read in there what you read. I think there is more than the weather being discussed.
I don't assume it is the weather channel here. All we need to do is figure out what He is refering to in each different verse, and the spirit of it.
Of course he made the claim. But when did this happen? At the beginning of the world? In heaven? After the flood, during, or before? Or is it prophetic, and hasn't even happened yet. Time is no limitation at all for God, you know. Perhaps why, in the very verse you mention, it says "great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend. "!

Actually, some deduction in here as well. Nowhere else I understand Him to talk about a crystal sea.

Fair enough opinion, from someone who does not yet believe in the spiritual. Again, I suggest try it, you might like it, and the way to do this is by getting saved or born again. I have pasted the prayer, but in case you missed it, something like this one will do it.
" "DEAR JESUS, THANK YOU FOR DYING FOR ME! PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR ALL MY SINS, AND COME IN TO MY HEART NOW. TAKE ME TO HEAVEN WHEN I DIE, AND HELP ME TO SHARE YOUR LOVE WITH OTHERS. IN JESUS' NAME, I PRAY, AMEN"! "

Mt 13:52 - Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
[/QUOTE]



Gidday dad,


But dad, it ain’t good science – that wot you say!

Sure you have the bible saying that Jesus rose and people saw him after he supposedly died. Certainly this must be given some currency. But how much?

If you accept the Bible based on how you interpret it then why not the sacred books of every other religious tradition for exactly the same reasons? Why not accept every other tradition within Christendom for exactly the same reason that you accept your own interpretation?

It is not good enough in science to say “I believe” and base that belief on flimsy evidence. Your evidence would be more credible if:-

a) Christendom was more united,

b) There was a unified view at the beginning of the Christian church - both biblical and extra-biblical evidence suggests that this was not so, and

c) All theists could agree on their supernatural world views

In science, it is not good enough to argue - “I believe it because someone wrote it down”. Independent evidence becomes the key for myself and others in determining whether you have reason for your claims or whether you are just accepting what someone else once claimed.

Consider this:-

1) Darwin said evolution is true. He wrote that claim down. Therefore evolution is true.

2) Other religious traditions claim that God/gods behaved in a certain manner. These claims were written down. Therefore the claims are true.

3) You claim that God behaved in a certain manner, based on what was written down. Therefore what was written down is true.

You accept 3) but, I suspect, reject 1) and 2). Why?

If I adopt your methodology in this argument, then whales certainly did evolve. All I need is for someone to make the claim and write it down. Not overly much evidence is required to support the claim.

Given that there is no evidence for the existence of whales 60 million years or more ago whereas by 45 million years ago they existed, and that between those times there existed animals which had a mixture of characteristics that went from fully adapted to land with some whale through to fully whale but with some land based characteristics – then what do you think happened? What evidence can you bring to support your argument?

I don't assume it [Job] is the weather channel here. All we need to do is figure out what He is refering to in each different verse, and the spirit of it.

But you can only figure it out from the point of view of your faith. You cannot figure it out in any scientific sense. To do so from some scientific sense would require you to have some evidence for the psyche of your god. Other than what is written down in the Bible as well as the subjective experiences of some believers, you have none.

I say this simply because another group of believers can also have a set of sacred books and subjective experiences which do not match those you claim. That is, it all depends on the faith of the believer. (See below for a further expansion of this.)

My reason for turning Job into a “weather channel” is that you have turned Genesis into a “biology channel”.
Why one but not the other?

If you can dismiss what I say and argue that I need to figure out what is being said as well as the spirit of it, then ditto to you for Genesis.


Thank you for your prayer too. I mean it although from what I am about to write, my thanks may appear sarcastic. It is not.

As a child, youth and young man I was very active in the church – Sunday School, Christian Endeavor, some lay preaching, choir etc. I believed that God existed, that Jesus was my Savior, that I was saved, that I lived in the light. I accepted that heaven and hell were real places. I also believed that many/most of my friends were unsaved and lived something of a “dark” life. I thought that atheism was an abhorrent belief. At around the age of 20 I attended a meeting put on by a sizeable Christian sect. There I met people who, like myself, accepted that the Bible was God’s inspired and inerrant word. However, they held many beliefs that were opposed to mine and each of us supported our ideas mostly from the Bible!

Although my faith had been under strain since mid teenage years – that experience caused my belief system to essentially collapse overnight.

I am telling you this to let you know that my formative years were spent in the very environment you believe I have not experienced.

I have.


Regards, Roland

 

[dad]

Actually, some deduction in here as well. Nowhere else I understand Him to talk about a crystal sea.
[
Re 4:6 - And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: ]!
Sure you have the bible saying that Jesus rose and people saw him after he supposedly died. Certainly this must be given some currency. But how much? [Enough to try it, and see if it's true]

If you accept the Bible based on how you interpret it then why not the sacred books of every other religious tradition for exactly the same reasons? Why not accept every other tradition within Christendom for exactly the same reason that you accept your own interpretation?
[And what is that reason?]

It is not good enough in science to say “I believe” and base that belief on flimsy evidence. [Well, in the case of granny, and the speck, it is] Your evidence would be more credible if:-

a) Christendom was more united,
[If believers or claimed believers were united, why would they have killed Jesus? He says they will kill His followers in the end times, and 'think that he doeth God a service'!]

b) There was a unified view at the beginning of the Christian church - both biblical and extra-biblical evidence suggests that this was not so, and
[People are people, even, to some extent saved people, no one said they were perfect, just forgiven]

c) All theists could agree on their supernatural world views
[Not if there are good and bad spirits!]

1) Darwin said evolution is true. He wrote that claim down. Therefore evolution is true.
[He's dead as a doornail. God is still alive and well]

2) Other religious traditions claim that God/gods behaved in a certain manner. These claims were written down. Therefore the claims are true.
[Many of them are! But gods are not God. Many are mere demons, or perhaps derived from some actual spiritual experience]

3) You claim that God behaved in a certain manner, based on what was written down. Therefore what was written down is true.
[All depends Who wrote it]

If I adopt your methodology in this argument, then whales certainly did evolve. All I need is for someone to make the claim and write it down. Not overly much evidence is required to support the claim.
[Opposite is true, granny and the speck have zero evidence, except for assumptions. The spiritual and bible are proven every day by folks touching heaven, and answered prayers, etc]

Given that there is no evidence for the existence of whales 60 million years or more ago whereas by 45 million years ago they existed, and that between those times there existed animals which had a mixture of characteristics that went from fully adapted to land with some whale through to fully whale but with some land based characteristics – then what do you think happened? What evidence can you bring to support your argument?
[ Given the millions of years, perhaps. They are not given. In fact, the bible says it was created some thousands of years ago, by the ages of Adam, and others, up to recorded history, within a fairly small window of room for interpretation. They appeared in the record, yes. But they lived a long time, and by the time they were spread over the earth's seas, died, and were fossilized, with the merge, a lot of layers were already laid down, I would think!]

But you can only figure it out from the point of view of your faith. You cannot figure it out in any scientific sense. [Faith in the physical only] To do so from some scientific sense would require you to have some evidence for the psyche of your god. Other than what is written down in the Bible as well as the subjective experiences of some believers, you have none.
[" psyche
<LI>soul; self; mind; the sensorium of transcendence
www.salamander.com/~wmcclain/ev-glossary.html

[size=-1](Greek) [from psycho breathe, blow; cf Greek pneuma from pneo to breathe, blow; Latin anima, spiritus all connected with breath, wind, spirit, life, soul] Used in classic Greek as vaguely as is our word soul.."
So the mind, and heart and soul of God we do know. God is Love. Sounds simple, but it is a real key to understanding the bible, to read it, knowing it was from the stsndpoint of lovem despite what it may sound like]
[/size]
My reason for turning Job into a &#8220;weather channel&#8221; is that you have turned Genesis into a &#8220;biology channel&#8221;.
Why one but not the other? [Have you heard the phrase Job's comforters? These were the guys basically saying, curse God and die. Your chapter, apparently was written by one of these guys! (Elihu) No wonder I hadn't heard of it as something important! Some out to lunch would be wise man! What did God think of the little rant? Just look at the first verse in the next chapter!
"1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? "
Ho ho ho! That's why!!!!!!!!]

If you can dismiss what I say and argue that I need to figure out what is being said as well as the spirit of it, then ditto to you for Genesis. [Ha, already answered!]


Thank you for your prayer too. I mean it although from what I am about to write, my thanks may appear sarcastic. It is not.

As a child, youth and young man I was very active in the church &#8211; Sunday School, Christian Endeavor, some lay preaching, choir etc. I believed that God existed, that Jesus was my Savior, that I was saved, that I lived in the light. I accepted that heaven and hell were real places. I also believed that many/most of my friends were unsaved and lived something of a &#8220;dark&#8221; life. I thought that atheism was an abhorrent belief. At around the age of 20 I attended a meeting put on by a sizeable Christian sect. There I met people who, like myself, accepted that the Bible was God&#8217;s inspired and inerrant word. However, they held many beliefs that were opposed to mine and each of us supported our ideas mostly from the Bible!

Although my faith had been under strain since mid teenage years &#8211; that experience caused my belief system to essentially collapse overnight.

I am telling you this to let you know that my formative years were spent in the very environment you believe I have not experienced.

I have.
[OK fair enough. Soory some were able to overthrow what faith you did have. No doubt it is all for a reason, and if you ever regain it, I doubt any would be able to steal it again.]


Regards, Roland

.

 

[dad]

So there's absolutely no point in experimentations or in making predictions of any sort, since He can change the rules on a whim without warning.

Well, we can find out how our soon to fade away physical only universe now operates! (Normally, unless some local intervention is needed!) I would reccomend more studying things of the spiritual, as they will never pass away, and are more important!

 

[Nathan Poe]

Well, we can find out how our soon to fade away physical only universe now operates! (Normally, unless some local intervention is needed!)

What would be the point?
The problem is, and I think you will agree, that God intervenes when He wants to, not when we think He needs to.
So, whatever we study in the physical universe could at this very moment be tampered with by His intervention, which He may stop or alter at any given moment for reasons known only to Him.

I would reccomend more studying things of the spiritual, as they will never pass away, and are more important!

Why assume that the spiritual would never pass away? God makes the rules, not you. What makes the spiritual realm, which, you must agree, is also under God's control and subject to His whim, any more stable than the physical?

 

[dad]

What would be the point?
The problem is, and I think you will agree, that God intervenes when He wants to, not when we think He needs to.
[We may think something, but He love us, and see the big picture, and really does know what is really best for us.]
So, whatever we study in the physical universe could at this very moment be tampered with by His intervention, which He may stop or alter at any given moment for reasons known only to Him.
[Well, it certainly is tampered with. Man did that, and forced a seperation, temporarily. But all will be made right in the not so distant future]




Why assume that the spiritual would never pass away? God makes the rules, not you.
[Yes, and they are in His rule book. Thats how we know. ] What makes the spiritual realm, which, you must agree, is also under God's control and subject to His whim, any more stable than the physical?
[The physical was designed to pass away, not to last forever. Thats what]

.

 

[Nathan Poe]

We may think something, but He love us, and see the big picture, and really does know what is really best for us.

So we've been told. Now, what does this have to do with His influence on the physical world?

Well, it certainly is tampered with. Man did that, and forced a seperation, temporarily. But all will be made right in the not so distant future

But tyou're missing the point: God is tampering with it all right now as we speak. So any study of the physical world is tainted. What's the point of studying any type of science?

Yes, and they are in His rule book. Thats how we know.

So God is bound by the magical Rule Book. And here I thought He was all-powerful. That's useful to know.

The physical was designed to pass away, not to last forever. Thats what.

That doesn't preclude God from doing as He pleases with the spiritual... including, if He so chooses, obliterating it.

 

[dad]

So we've been told. Now, what does this have to do with His influence on the physical world?
[I don't know, what is it you want to know?]



But tyou're missing the point: God is tampering with it all right now as we speak. So any study of the physical world is tainted. What's the point of studying any type of science?
[He does interact, yes, but most of that is just How we ask Him to, or force Him to]




So God is bound by the magical Rule Book. And here I thought He was all-powerful. That's useful to know.
[You bet, these are the limitations He imosed on Himself, or limited Himself with, for our sakes]



That doesn't preclude God from doing as He pleases with the spiritual... including, if He so chooses, obliterating it.
[He is a spirit, so that kind of stuff, is just inspired fear of the enemy. If we understood the key of love, we would have no such fear.]

.

 

[Nathan Poe]

He does interact, yes, but most of that is just How we ask Him to, or force Him to

WE force GOD to act? dad, I think you need to seriously consider the theology of what you're saying here...

You bet, these are the limitations He imosed on Himself, or limited Himself with, for our sakes

Limitations he can do away with any time He chooses, correct?

He is a spirit, so that kind of stuff, is just inspired fear of the enemy. If we understood the key of love, we would have no such fear.

I'm not talking fear, I'm talking your science -- God has as much control over the Spiritual as he does over the physical, does He not?

Anything He can do to one, He can do to the other.

 

[Sphere]

and dad continues his crusade to spread lies and false information. Nothing new here, let's get back on topic, and not let this thread get to a level that is beneath this community. Some people are best ignored.

 

[rjw]

Gidday dad,

Actually, some deduction in here as well. Nowhere else I understand Him to talk about a crystal sea.

Re 4:6 - And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:

Dad!!! How do you know Job 37:18 and Rev 4:6 have any connection at all? Again this is pure speculation on your part. Your initial comment about Job referring to the “crystal sea which surrounds New Jerusalem” was pure speculation – given that God was merely challenging Job on his abilities to control/ordain nature, in this case the sky. Now you link Job with Revelations – without any evidence for the link. It becomes more problematical for you in that the interpretation of the relevant word can either be “glass” or “mirror”. Thus the A.V writes “glass” the R.V. writes “mirror”.

Sure you have the bible saying that Jesus rose and people saw him after he supposedly died. Certainly this must be given some currency. But how much?

Enough to try it, and see if it's true

How do I “try it to see if it is true”?

If you accept the Bible based on how you interpret it then why not the sacred books of every other religious tradition for exactly the same reasons? Why not accept every other tradition within Christendom for exactly the same reason that you accept your own interpretation?

And what is that reason?

Because the Bible claims it; the Bible is God’s word; you have evidence from the testimony of other people – these are things you have explicitly or implicitly claimed throughout our conversation.

It is not good enough in science to say “I believe” and base that belief on flimsy evidence.

Well, in the case of granny, and the speck, it is

I do not know what you are saying here dad!

Your evidence would be more credible if:-

a) Christendom was more united,

If believers or claimed believers were united, why would they have killed Jesus? He says they will kill His followers in the end times, and 'think that he doeth God a service'!

I have no idea what you mean here dad. The point I am making is that your faith would be more credible to outsiders if Christians could agree.

b) There was a unified view at the beginning of the Christian church - both biblical and extra-biblical evidence suggests that this was not so, and

People are people, even, to some extent saved people, …

I would have thought that saved people were still people.

… no one said they were perfect, just forgiven

My point is that, at the origin of Christianity there was much disunity. Hence, from then to now, it all kind of looks like a belief with little evidence to support it rather than a belief with much supporting evidence.

c) All theists could agree on their supernatural world views

Not if there are good and bad spirits!

Why not? All theists could agree that there are good and bad spirits. That all theists do not agree suggests to me that there is very little evidence for this thing called faith. I am not attempting to knock it. It is just that, in the scientific realm, religious faith is impractical as a theoretical basis.

1) Darwin said evolution is true. He wrote that claim down. Therefore evolution is true.

He's dead as a doornail. God is still alive and well

Snappy comeback but entirely irrelevant to my point. Stick to the point!

2) Other religious traditions claim that God/gods behaved in a certain manner. These claims were written down. Therefore the claims are true

Many of them are! But gods are not God. Many are mere demons, or perhaps derived from some actual spiritual experience

That is only your opinion. They would beg to differ.

Since you refuse to argue on the basis of evidence dad, who is to decide? Is it the one who shouts the loudest; first grabs the gun; talks the longest – or what?

3) You claim that God behaved in a certain manner, based on what was written down. Therefore what was written down is true.

All depends Who wrote it

God did not write yours. God wrote theirs. Or gods wrote theirs. God wrote yours. God did not write theirs.

Since you (and presumably they) refuse to argue from evidence, then take your pick!

If I adopt your methodology in this argument, then whales certainly did evolve. All I need is for someone to make the claim and write it down. Not overly much evidence is required to support the claim.

[Opposite is true, granny and the speck have zero evidence, except for assumptions. The spiritual and bible are proven every day by folks touching heaven, and answered prayers, etc

What would you count as satisfactory evidence then?

Given that there is no evidence for the existence of whales 60 million years or more ago whereas by 45 million years ago they existed, and that between those times there existed animals which had a mixture of characteristics that went from fully adapted to land with some whale through to fully whale but with some land based characteristics – then what do you think happened? What evidence can you bring to support your argument?

Given the millions of years, perhaps. They are not given. In fact, the bible says it was created some thousands of years ago, by the ages of Adam, and others, up to recorded history, within a fairly small window of room for interpretation. They appeared in the record, yes. But they lived a long time, and by the time they were spread over the earth's seas, died, and were fossilized, with the merge, a lot of layers were already laid down, I would think!

Dad, they were given millions of years. Physical evidence tells us so.

If you do not wish to argue physical evidence with respect to the whales then you are not doing science.

But you can only figure it out from the point of view of your faith. You cannot figure it out in any scientific sense.

Faith in the physical only

Do you know of any science that is done by faith in the supernatural? I come back you my question re micro evolution, chemical reactions, stellar energy sources etc if you answer “yes” to this question.

To do so from some scientific sense would require you to have some evidence for the psyche of your god. Other than what is written down in the Bible as well as the subjective experiences of some believers, you have none.

[" psyche
<LI>soul; self; mind; the sensorium of transcendence
www.salamander.com/~wmcclain/ev-glossary.html

(Greek) [from psycho breathe, blow; cf Greek pneuma from pneo to breathe, blow; Latin anima, spiritus all connected with breath, wind, spirit, life, soul] Used in classic Greek as vaguely as is our word soul.."
So the mind, and heart and soul of God we do know. God is Love. Sounds simple, but it is a real key to understanding the bible, to read it, knowing it was from the stsndpoint of lovem despite what it may sound like

Dad this has nothing to do with the evolution or otherwise of whales; It has nothing to do with how reliable the Bible is as a source to argue from concerning the evolution of whales etc.

My reason for turning Job into a “weather channel” is that you have turned Genesis into a “biology channel”.
Why one but not the other?

Have you heard the phrase Job's comforters? These were the guys basically saying, curse God and die.

Yes I have heard of them.

Your chapter, apparently was written by one of these guys! (Elihu) No wonder I hadn't heard of it as something important!

But they were reminding Job about how God acts. In both Genesis and Job the verses are written as someone telling the reader about how God acts. Quite obviously, just as they “knew” God created, so they also “knew” he controlled. Yet you accept the first but not the second.

Some out to lunch would be wise man! What did God think of the little rant? Just look at the first verse in the next chapter!

"1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? "

Ho ho ho! That's why!!!!!!!!

Good point! But exactly what was God complaining about? Their scientific viewpoint (hardly) or the fact that they were turning Job against God’s wishes (most likely)! God reinforces their ideas in the next chapter – do you believe that he closes the seas behind doors when a storm quells, or that he laid down a foundation stone at the beginning of the world? Yes? Then why accept Job 38 but not Job 37? No? Then why accept Genesis but not Job?

If you can dismiss what I say and argue that I need to figure out what is being said as well as the spirit of it, then ditto to you for Genesis.

Ha, already answered!

Ha! Not exactly. See above.

Thank you for your prayer too. I mean it although from what I am about to write, my thanks may appear sarcastic. It is not.

As a child, youth and young man I was very active in the church – Sunday School, Christian Endeavor, some lay preaching, choir etc. I believed that God existed, that Jesus was my Savior, that I was saved, that I lived in the light. I accepted that heaven and hell were real places. I also believed that many/most of my friends were unsaved and lived something of a “dark” life. I thought that atheism was an abhorrent belief. At around the age of 20 I attended a meeting put on by a sizeable Christian sect. There I met people who, like myself, accepted that the Bible was God’s inspired and inerrant word. However, they held many beliefs that were opposed to mine and each of us supported our ideas mostly from the Bible!

Although my faith had been under strain since mid teenage years – that experience caused my belief system to essentially collapse overnight.

I am telling you this to let you know that my formative years were spent in the very environment you believe I have not experienced.

I have.

OK fair enough. Soory some were able to overthrow what faith you did have. No doubt it is all for a reason, and if you ever regain it, I doubt any would be able to steal it again.

Don’t be sorry. We all take on theologies/world views that make sense to us. When it did happen, I was very relieved. At age 16, the thought of living as a non-believer was anathema. At age 20 it became a sensible thing.


Regards, Roland

 

[dad]

Dad, they were given millions of years. Physical evidence tells us so.

If you do not wish to argue physical evidence with respect to the whales then you are not doing science

Of course, just not limited to only physical science, as all that ever was, which there can be no evidence for, since it was not all that there was.

Do you know of any science that is done by faith in the supernatural? I come back you my question re micro evolution, chemical reactions, stellar energy sources etc if you answer “yes” to this question

Let's not get on a high horse here. We know what is the issue, is the projection of the physical only -on the futeur or far past. This we cannot do, if we are christians, or believers in some other faiths, because we have hard biblical evidence the spiritual was also at work with the physical!
Now if you have no other beliefs save that of the physical only, the only thing left to discuss, would be the best way to live equal and seperate, such as with schools not just funded mostly for the one belief!
Many on this forum however, are also christians, and in the scientific community (also jews, etc.) -which is where I might hope they will see the point of a biblically impossible physical only future, or past.

Dad this has nothing to do with the evolution or otherwise of whales; It has nothing to do with how reliable the Bible is as a source to argue from concerning the evolution of whales etc.

..Nor the price of tea in China. but it does your post it responded to "To do so from some scientific sense would require you to have some evidence for the psyche of your god. .."

But they were reminding Job about how God acts..

No, their opinion, and eloquent language, whic the Almighty Himself really brushed off quite nicely, I thought, for the foolishness it was!
Job 38:2 - Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

!!!!!!

 

[dad]

WE force GOD to act? dad, I think you need to seriously consider the theology of what you're saying here...
[Our decisions, sometimes force His Hand, yes, what about it?]


I'm not talking fear, I'm talking your science -- God has as much control over the Spiritual as he does over the physical, does He not?

Anything He can do to one, He can do to the other.
This is talking "my science?" Don't think so, sounds like fear to me, that the God of Love is some prankster]

.

 

[dad]

and dad continues his crusade to spread lies and false information. Nothing new here, let's get back on topic, and not let this thread get to a level that is beneath this community. Some people are best ignored.

Exposing your false lies.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Our decisions, sometimes force His Hand, yes, what about it?

Do we all have such power over God to "force" Him to do what He otherwise wouldn't?

This is talking "my science?" Don't think so, sounds like fear to me, that the God of Love is some prankster

I'm just curious about how you intend to incorporate the spiritual into your mythical "outside-the-box" science.

 

[JesusQuest]

Let's say you have a bus, and one day it decided to turn into a submarine one part at a time, when it lost it's wheels, it couldn't move and before it could grow fins it died of need of gasoline. Even if the bus got into water before it got fins, how could the bus swim? It would drown!! Same with the evolution of a whale.