Evolution of whales

[Uphill Battle]

It was not until 1979 that paleontologists had their first indisputable evidence about whale transition. Pakicetus was discovered by Philip Gingerich in Pakistan. Later, in 1995, Hans Thewissen found Ambulocetus. Whales with legs are now known from Pakistan, India, Egypt and the U.S.A.

I'm sorry, I fail to see from that picture the "indisputable evidence" that connects pakicetus to ambulocetus. (aptly named, of course, to fall in the same line)

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Well because it is just a simple drawing. The actual fossils, as studied by people who make a living doing comparative anatomy, are where the evidence comes from.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

I'm sorry, I fail to see from that picture the "indisputable evidence" that connects pakicetus to ambulocetus. (aptly named, of course, to fall in the same line)

I know you can’t be so obtuse that you don’t understand that the picture is a graphical representation of actual findings that have been researched by experts and classified accordingly. You obviously just want to ignore the facts in order to maintain your fragile belief system. So be it.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I know you can’t be so obtuse that you don’t understand that the picture is a graphical representation of actual findings that have been researched by experts and classified accordingly. You obviously just want to ignore the facts in order to maintain your fragile belief system. So be it.

no, no, what I mean is, if the changes are so drastic as shown in the graphical representation, that what connects them? Similarities? That isn't enough.

 

[rjw]

no, no, what I mean is, if the changes are so drastic as shown in the graphical representation, that what connects them? Similarities? That isn't enough.

Hello Uphill Battle,


What else would you like to see used to connect the bones with and why?


Regards, Roland

 

[Jet Black]

Ok, but what about the steps required? Going from a quadropedal land animal to a whale, would take more than just minor changes, it's a complete overhaul. At what point do the legs fuse to a single rear fin? At what point does the spinal column go from having the legs hinged perpendicular to what you observe in a whale today, with the horizontal tail, in line with the spine?

incorrect description of whale anatomy. the whale fluke (the one at the back is a fluke) is actually a modification of the mammalian tail. the legs remained on the sides and steadily shrank awa and more or less disappeared altogether. there are a few bits of the hip left, and occasionally you even find a whale with a complete leg or two.

 

[Jet Black]

I'm sorry, I fail to see from that picture the "indisputable evidence" that connects pakicetus to ambulocetus. (aptly named, of course, to fall in the same line)

of course you do. this isn't however saying alot, because yesterday you weren't even aware of basic whale anatomy. You aren't exactly in a position to judge what is good evidence now are you?

 

[dad]

incorrect description of whale anatomy. the whale fluke (the one at the back is a fluke) is actually a modification of the mammalian tail. the legs remained on the sides and steadily shrank awa and more or less disappeared altogether. there are a few bits of the hip left, and occasionally you even find a whale with a complete leg or two.

Where do we keep the whales with complete legs? I wouldn't mind having a look, maybe getting a picture? Are they still alive? Do they still swim, or would I better look on land, where they are having a nice stroll? Maybe we could have a whale special olympics, where they see which one is faster on land? Since some apparently only have the one leg, I guess we would have to have catagories, to be fair. Thanks for the info, always nice to learn things.

 

[Jet Black]

no, no, what I mean is, if the changes are so drastic as shown in the graphical representation, that what connects them? Similarities? That isn't enough.

order, similarities, location. actually read up, because we all know already that you don't know what you are talking about. look, yesterday you didn't even know that the whale tail comes from the mammalian tail - you thought they were fused legs like a mermaid or something. you are barely in a position to judge on the quality of evidence.

 

[dad]

...It took less than 15 million years for the whale lineage to move from land, through shallow bays and coastal waters, to deep marine environments. By 40 million years ago whales had become essentially the animals we know today.

The evolution of whales involved much more than legs becoming flippers or vestigial organs. The fossil series demonstrates how their breathing apparatus changed, their ears changed and other body parts changed. ....

It demonstrates nothing of the kind. There are different whales, is about all. Whales were made in creation week according to the bible. Assumptions to the contrary, because of imagined long time periods and legs on whales prove nothing but one's dedication to a fluke old age belief.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

That's a load of dingos' kidneys, dad, and you know it. We've posted what is barely the scratchings of the tip of the iceberg of material on whale evolution, and already it stands up incredibly well against the whining and whinging from the creationist side.

 

[Tenka]

That is why I all capped PHYSICAL. we are weaker, slower, worse senses, more fragile, less resistant to heat, cold, etc...

But we get a +5 to our dexterity and intelligence modifiers..

Our mental abilities made up for our physical sacrifices way back when we made use of caves and crude stone tools.

Also, we managed to harness fire, a massive factor in assuring our survival.

 

[Uphill Battle]

order, similarities, location. actually read up, because we all know already that you don't know what you are talking about. look, yesterday you didn't even know that the whale tail comes from the mammalian tail - you thought they were fused legs like a mermaid or something. you are barely in a position to judge on the quality of evidence.

Fused legs, tail, whatever. What I said is, there isn't any real evidence that they moved from one form to another, is there. A series of skeletal remains, some with legs, some not. woohoo. And, for some reason, the whale evolution took WAY less time then other evolutionary processes. they were in a hurry it would seem.

And lastly, if there were some born without legs, the first fully aquatic whales, they would have nothing to mate with, as theire ancestors would still be restricted to shore areas. or did the fully aquatic whale restrict itself to shore areas too? Why?

 

[Tomk80]

Fused legs, tail, whatever. What I said is, there isn't any real evidence that they moved from one form to another, is there. A series of skeletal remains, some with legs, some not. woohoo. And, for some reason, the whale evolution took WAY less time then other evolutionary processes. they were in a hurry it would seem.

Yeah, fused legs or tails, whatever. Crazy anatomy, who cares.
You seem to be missing out on a lot of the details here. I would suggest study. You apparantly also completely missed evidence like whales being occsionally born with legs, and the fact that whales still have a pelvis, despite having not use for it. Again, I would suggest that before you woowoo things away, you actually study them in full and not in the casual 'I took a peek at it for a few minuts and I don't like it'-way that you are adopting now.

And lastly, if there were some born without legs, the first fully aquatic whales, they would have nothing to mate with, as theire ancestors would still be restricted to shore areas. or did the fully aquatic whale restrict itself to shore areas too? Why?

Strawman, and not just a little bit. Why would legs suddenly have to disappear? Why can't they have non-functional legs that get shorter and shorter for a while? Like the legs some whales are nowadays born with? Why do you propose a sudden 'jump', when that is not what the theory of evolution proposes? Seems a bit dishonest, does it not?

 

[Uphill Battle]

all graphical representation or fossil evidence that I have seen that proposes the evolution of whales jumps from a legged whale to a non legged one.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

You didn't google Basilosaurus, like I suggested, did you?

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

all graphical representation or fossil evidence that I have seen that proposes the evolution of whales jumps from a legged whale to a non legged one.

If it helps you visualize, think back upon the post where seals were brought up.

Seals, sea lions & walruses:
· Pachycynodon (early Oligocene) -- A bearlike terrestrial carnivore with several sea-lion traits.

· Enaliarctos (late Oligocene, California) -- Still had many features of bear-like terrestrial carnivores: bear- like tympanic bulla, carnassials, etc. But, had flippers instead of toes (though could still walk and run on the flippers) and somewhat simplified dentition. Gave rise to several more advanced families, including:

· Odobenidae: the walrus family. Started with Neotherium 14 my, then Imagotaria, which is probably ancestral to modern species.

· Otariidae: the sea lion family. First was Pithanotaria (mid- Miocene, 11 Ma) -- small and primitive in many respects, then Thalassoleon (late Miocene) and finally modern sea lions (Pleistocene, about 2 Ma).

· Phocidae: the seal family. First known are the primitive and somewhat weasel-like mid-Miocene seals Leptophoca and Montherium. Modern seals first appear in the Pliocene, about 4 Ma.

SOURCE: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional/part2a.html

Modern Seals, sea lions & walruses are great examples of a living transitional. They can still survive and breed on land, but are better suited for aquatic life. An early whale or dolphin ancestor would have been very similar.

 

[Uphill Battle]

yep. and I read arguments about both sides. Again, there is no direct evidence that connects this "sea serpent" to a modern whale.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Where do we keep the whales with complete legs? I wouldn't mind having a look, maybe getting a picture? Are they still alive? Do they still swim, or would I better look on land, where they are having a nice stroll? Maybe we could have a whale special olympics, where they see which one is faster on land? Since some apparently only have the one leg, I guess we would have to have catagories, to be fair. Thanks for the info, always nice to learn things.

I am just about ready to put this guy on ignore.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

yep. and I read arguments about both sides. Again, there is no direct evidence that connects this "sea serpent" to a modern whale.

There is.

It has particular features that only whales have. The ear. The shape of the teeth. Position of the nostrils. Probably others, but I'm no anatomist. There is plenty that screams "this is a whale!"