Evolution of God

[Clare73]

I am influenced by real and genuine soul-winners who go out into the worst areas of their cities, mix with the lowliest people, dressing the same way as them, and suffering the same discomforts in order to reach them for Christ. A missionary I know who went to Haiti, lived in a tin shack along with those he came to reach for Christ and showed that he was not superior to them, but had a message that would give them a whole new outlook on life. I don't know about you, but when i read and hear of such people, it makes me feel ashamed of my comfortable middle-class life where I go to church every Sunday, and have the odd conversation with the neighbors but never really put myself out to go and seek out the lost in order to present Christ to them.

When we all line up at the judgment, I wouldn't want to appear before Christ after people who have done much more than I have to seek and save the lost for Christ.

Are not those who give the gospel to princes, kings and presidents doing the same?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I dunno man. I reckon this is the only life one gets and I’m happy and content most of the time. I’m nowhere near miserable.

It’s off topic but I find it very strange that the thought that we get one life might make anyone miserable.

It makes me wonder how miserable would one need to be to cleave to the idea that it’s gets better after we are dead. If that’s the only way to not be miserable it’s more so a judgement on the quality of one’s own life.

Does that make any sense?

95% of people have a fear of death in some form. The other 5% are liars. During an active day, most people don't think about it because they involve themselves in the activities of living. But it is that last few minutes at the end of the day when one turns out the light and prepares to sleep that some of the deepest, suppressed fears can arise. Actually, the graveyard is filled with people of all ages, so many buried there didn't expect to die when they did. One moment they are full of life going about their business and the next, nothing. This can happen to anyone, including you and me. The unknown is what is there after the lights go out.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And I can say the same at 65. I can also name atheists that never seemed to feel that way when they died. It is after all impossible to read one's mind.

The problem is that they can't come back and tell us what is there. As I said in my last post (forgive the pun), death comes when we would least expect it. I heard the story of a fellow who had a cardiac arrest while participating in a bicycle race. One moment he was cycling along, the next he woke up in hospital. He had no idea what happened to him and why he suddenly awoke to find himself in a hospital bed.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It is the nature of Christian faith to be certain, lack of certainty is not Christian faith.

"Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1)

"We know that. . .we know what. . .we know that. . ."(1 John 3:14, 16, 19)

Hebrews 11:1 doesn't speak of epistemological certainty. The author of Hebrews writes that faith is the substance (hypostasis) of our hope--of all that we have hope in--and the evidence or conviction (elegchos) of what is unseen.

It is through faith that we are brought into confidence of Gods promises, even though they remain unseen. That we walk by faith rather than sight; trusting in God's promises even when our senses and sense of reason are at odds with them. That we, as Paul says, "see through the glass dimly, but then face to face, knowing even as I am known".

If by "certainty" you mean the strength of confidence, no problem. But that's not what Subdivision means by "certainty"; the discussion of "certainty" is about epistemological certainty.

Epistemologically no, I am not "certain" of the truth of what I believe. I could be wrong. But nevertheless I have confidence in Jesus Christ, confidence in God's promises. I have a confidence in the Gospel that goes beyond reason and and espistemological arguments; a confidence from faith. A faith that I did not give myself, but a faith that comes from outside of myself from God, who gives me faith through the very Gospel in which I now hope, trust, believe, and commit my whole self to in faith.

If epistemological certainty were a requirement, and the one who does not have it does not have Christian faith, this reckons the man's prayer to Jesus in the Gospels, "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!" as nonsense.

"Lord I believe, help my unbelief" is the prayer only the Faithful can make.

Doubts, struggles, temptations, all the many nuances and stresses and existential crises of human existence in this world are part of our carrying our cross of discipleship in faith.

Of course we continue with unbelief(s). We are sinful human beings for whom faith is seemingly "unnatural", at least according to the natural wisdom of man. That's why the Apostle says that the things of God are foolishness to the wisdom of the wise, and that the things of God can only be apprehended to us by the Spirit; saying they are "Spiritually discerned". The Apostle speaks of faith by the power of the Spirit.

This is why we are dependent upon Word and Sacrament. Through Word and Sacrament the Spirit is always at work, creating in us faith; faith in the faithful promises of God in Jesus Christ. Though we do not see, though we do not know; we believe, we hope, we trust, we are confident in the God who shows Himself to us in Jesus Christ. So that we know the Father through knowing His Son. And we know God's Son through the Spirit and by the Spirit in Word and Sacrament.

So, again, I hope you're not trying to say that being a Christian means having some kind of absolute epistemological certainty; because to teach and suggest this is to preach and teach against faith. It is from teaching like this that thorns and thistles grow which the Lord warns can choke out faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Because you don't understand the certainty of Christian faith.

They claim it because they know what the Scriptures reveal.

You misunderstand as much as you claim believers do.

Agreed. . .man has a natural conscience.

The certainty of faith exists because the Holy Spirit is the only Person who gives it. This is more than just a mental belief in the theology of Christianity. There are many who sincerely believe that Christianity is absolutely true, but they are not genuinely converted to Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe that Christianity is totally true. The demonized girl who went around announcing "These men [Paul and Barnabas] are servants of the most high God who have come to show us the way of salvation", spoke the truth. But she was not a genuine Christian, and Paul cast the demon out of her, much to the annoyance of her masters.

So, there are many who attend church, walk the walk and talk the talk, live moral lives, become deacons and elders, go into the ministry - all on a belief that Christianity is true. But unless the Holy Spirit gives them 'saving' faith in order to have them put their full trust and confidence in Christ, they are still unconverted religious people. It is the Holy Spirit who gives genuine believers the absolute knowledge and certainty that God is really there, and that Jesus is alive in them through the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is how a genuine Christian believer can know it without a single doubt and have an absolute certainty about it.

One of our friends on the forum asks for tests to prove that Christianity is true. But who on earth is authorised to conduct the test? Why does a Christian believer have to justify his faith to another mortal person? Who has the authority to judge whether a Christian believer's faith is genuine or not? No one. A Christian believer does not have to prove to an atheist that his faith is genuine. His only responsibility is to tell others of his faith in Christ and what Christ has done in order that we might be saved. Whether the others choose to believe what is being told to them is up to them. The telling of the others about Christ takes the responsibility off the teller and on to the listener. If there is a judgment, and the atheist and unbeliever find themselves in a state of eternal condemnation, they cannot blame the Christian believer, because they were told but did not listen. Therefore their blood is on their own heads and they cannot blame anyone but themselves.

As for me, even it there were no judgment, heaven or eternal life, I would not change the 53 years of my Christian life, because the alternative has no attraction for me at all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hebrews 11:1 doesn't speak of epistemological certainty. The author of Hebrews writes that faith is the substance (hypostasis) of our hope--of all that we have hope in--and the evidence or conviction (elegchos) of what is unseen.

It is through faith that we are brought into confidence of Gods promises, even though they remain unseen. That we walk by faith rather than sight; trusting in God's promises even when our senses and sense of reason are at odds with them. That we, as Paul says, "see through the glass dimly, but then face to face, knowing even as I am known".

If by "certainty" you mean the strength of confidence, no problem. But that's not what Subdivision means by "certainty"; the discussion of "certainty" is about epistemological certainty.

Epistemologically no, I am not "certain" of the truth of what I believe. I could be wrong. But nevertheless I have confidence in Jesus Christ, confidence in God's promises. I have a confidence in the Gospel that goes beyond reason and and espistemological arguments; a confidence from faith. A faith that I did not give myself, but a faith that comes from outside of myself from God, who gives me faith through the very Gospel in which I now hope, trust, believe, and commit my whole self to in faith.

If epistemological certainty were a requirement, and the one who does not have it does not have Christian faith, this reckons the man's prayer to Jesus in the Gospels, "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!" as nonsense.

"Lord I believe, help my unbelief" is the prayer only the Faithful can make.

Doubts, struggles, temptations, all the many nuances and stresses and existential crises of human existence in this world are part of our carrying our cross of discipleship in faith.

Of course we continue with unbelief(s). We are sinful human beings for whom faith is seemingly "unnatural", at least according to the natural wisdom of man. That's why the Apostle says that the things of God are foolishness to the wisdom of the wise, and that the things of God can only be apprehended to us by the Spirit; saying they are "Spiritually discerned". The Apostle speaks of faith by the power of the Spirit.

This is why we are dependent upon Word and Sacrament. Through Word and Sacrament the Spirit is always at work, creating in us faith; faith in the faithful promises of God in Jesus Christ. Though we do not see, though we do not know; we believe, we hope, we trust, we are confident in the God who shows Himself to us in Jesus Christ. So that we know the Father through knowing His Son. And we know God's Son through the Spirit and by the Spirit in Word and Sacrament.

So, again, I hope you're not trying to say that being a Christian means having some kind of absolute epistemological certainty; because to teach and suggest this is to preach and teach against faith. It is from teaching like this that thorns and thistles grow which the Lord warns can choke out faith.

-CryptoLutheran

Well said!

 

[Clare73]

Hebrews 11:1 doesn't speak of epistemological certainty.

He speaks of the only certainty that matters.
Everything else is window dressing.
It matters not whether my certainty is "epistemological" or not, if I have the certainty (conviction) of Hebrews 11:1.
When did epistemology become the governor of the word of God?

The author of Hebrews writes that faith is the substance (hypostasis) of our hope--of all that we have hope in--and the evidence or conviction (elegchos) of what is unseen.

Conviction = certainty.

It is through faith that we are brought into confidence of Gods promises, even though they remain unseen. That we walk by faith rather than sight; trusting in God's promises even when our senses and sense of reason are at odds with them. That we, as Paul says, "see through the glass dimly, but then face to face, knowing even as I am known".

If by "certainty" you mean the strength of confidence, no problem. But that's not what Subdivision means by "certainty"; the discussion of "certainty" is about epistemological certainty.

Epistemologically no, I am not "certain" of the truth of what I believe. I could be wrong. But nevertheless I have confidence in Jesus Christ, confidence in God's promises. I have a confidence in the Gospel that goes beyond reason and and espistemological arguments; a confidence from faith. A faith that I did not give myself, but a faith that comes from outside of myself from God, who gives me faith through the very Gospel in which I now hope, trust, believe, and commit my whole self to in faith.

If epistemological certainty were a requirement, and the one who does not have it does not have Christian faith, this reckons the man's prayer to Jesus in the Gospels, "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!" as nonsense.

"Lord I believe, help my unbelief" is the prayer only the Faithful can make.

Doubts, struggles, temptations, all the many nuances and stresses and existential crises of human existence in this world are part of our carrying our cross of discipleship in faith.

Of course we continue with unbelief(s). We are sinful human beings for whom faith is seemingly "unnatural", at least according to the natural wisdom of man. That's why the Apostle says that the things of God are foolishness to the wisdom of the wise, and that the things of God can only be apprehended to us by the Spirit; saying they are "Spiritually discerned". The Apostle speaks of faith by the power of the Spirit.

This is why we are dependent upon Word and Sacrament. Through Word and Sacrament the Spirit is always at work, creating in us faith; faith in the faithful promises of God in Jesus Christ. Though we do not see, though we do not know; we believe, we hope, we trust, we are confident in the God who shows Himself to us in Jesus Christ. So that we know the Father through knowing His Son. And we know God's Son through the Spirit and by the Spirit in Word and Sacrament.

So, again, I hope you're not trying to say that being a Christian means having some kind of absolute epistemological certainty; because to teach and suggest this is to preach and teach against faith. It is from teaching like this that thorns and thistles grow which the Lord warns can choke out faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

When did epistemology become the governor of the word of God?

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm merely suggesting that we understand that Hebrews 11:1 isn't about epistemology.

In a dialogue between Christians and non-Christians I think it's important that there is good communication; and that means understanding where the other person is coming from.

I believe it, therefore, honest when speaking with those outside of the faith to recognize that we are using a different kind of language when we, as people of faith, speak of our "certainty" in Christ.

But what we mean by the "certainty" of faith--i.e. the confidence and conviction that comes from faith--isn't what is meant by those such as our friend Subduction Zone here are speaking when they speak of certainty as an epistemological category.

Hence why I believe it is dangerous to conflate the two. For reasons I outlined in my above post.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ldonjohn]

If he did it was because he was not who Christians think that he was. That is my opinion, but then I am no longer a Christian. As an atheist his suffering was rather pointless. I know that Christians are going to believe otherwise, but to me he was just a man.

Many will disagree with your OPINION.

Regards,
John

 

[ldonjohn]

Or it

Or we might not. If it is the end then we will never know.

It could be the beginning of eternity!

John

 

[Clare73]

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I am simply stating the import of your words, which it seems you do not realize.

I'm merely suggesting that we understand that Hebrews 11:1 isn't about epistemology.

You and I know that. And you and I know that faith likewise is not about epistemology.

In a dialogue between Christians and non-Christians I think it's important that there is good communication; and that means understanding where the other person is coming from.

I believe it, therefore, honest when speaking with those outside of the faith to recognize that we are using a different kind of language when we, as people of faith, speak of our "certainty" in Christ.

But what we mean by the "certainty" of faith--i.e. the confidence and conviction that comes from faith--isn't what is meant by those such as our friend Subduction Zone here are speaking when they speak of certainty as an epistemological category.

Hence why I believe it is dangerous to conflate the two. For reasons I outlined in my above post.

But somewhere along the line it has to be addressed that faith is not about epistemology and that you can't get there from epistemology, and it may as well be up front as far as I'm concerned, because you are talking past each other until you do.

And it's a waste of time to explain your position from an epistemological view, when faith is not based in epistemology.

 

[Clare73]

That they believed that is rather insulting. I could come up with a situation where I claimed that there were no Christians. I would be wrong and it would be equally insulting to Christians.

Only one non-Christian is allowed on this thread, and you make two.

 

[Clare73]

If you want answers

I'm not looking for answers. . .and when I am, I know where to find them.

you need to apologize for your poor debating techniques. Whenever you say "Nonresponsive" that is both a falsehood and an attempt to insult.

Get much exercise jumping to conclusions?

 

[Clare73]

Okay, I can see that you do not want a productive discussion. That is again not a good sign when it comes to belief. You can keep commenting, but I am going to take the very rare step of putting you on ignore.

You can still pretend to refute that which you do not appear to understand. Have fun.

"Productive discussion" with one who denies God and requires "epistemological" demonstration is a contradiction of terms.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Only one non-Christian is allowed on this thread, and you make two.

Makes me think of the story by G. F. Dempster who told of a homeless man who went to a church to find out if Christ really cared about him, but when he got to the door, he was turned away by one of the deacons who told him, "You are not the type we want here." He went away and decided to commit suicide, but by God's providence met a true Christian soul winner who was able to show him that Christ had no "select" people suitable to welcome into His kingdom, but His invitation was for all who came to Him. He said, "He who comes to Me, I will in no wise cast him out."

I think deep down our friend is seeking honest answers and is being put off mostly by the old worn out jargon which he is used to hearing and has ready made answers. If you want to enforce the conditions of the thread, go ahead. As for me, I am not going to reject him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are atheists that have.

I know we are getting off topic, and our OP has been very tolerant to allow us to go this far, and it is up to him whether he wants to put a stop to it or not.

But my brother, five years younger than me used to attend a Bible study group in his teenage years. But something happened which got on his wick and turned him right against anything to do with Christian churches. I think it was because he learned the bass guitar and joined a local rock music group. Since then he has had a long career in popular rock music after winning the New Zealand "Loxene Golden Disk" award in 1972. Perhaps one of the zealots in the Bible group berated him about being part of the "devil's music". He has never told me and I have never asked. However, he says that every time he goes past a church he feels very angry.

I became a Christian when I was 19, and we didn't have much contact for the next ten years. I had moved to a provincial city, and he travelled around the country with his music group, then spent some time in Australia. We met up again when I was in my early 30s, and over the last 40 years we have had many conversations and debates concerning Christianity. I don't think he really respected me much at first, but just a couple of years ago he remarked that because I have maintained my Christian faith for over 40 years, there must be something in it and he respects me for it. But to date, he will not change his position, and I doubt that he ever will unless something happens to change his mind.

So, if I have been debating with my brother over the last 40 years, I have heard all the objections that an atheist might put forward. Therefore, if I can't convince my own brother after over 40 years of trying, I doubt that I am going to convince you, am I?

This is why I am determined not to trot out the usual jargon, because I have tried it all before with my brother and none of it worked with him. So, whatever it is that could convince an atheist to change his mind about Christ is quite out of my knowledge and control.

So I have come to the conclusion that all one can do is to tell you what Christianity is all about and why Christ died on the Cross and how one can be converted to Christ. One cannot make another believe with debate and persuasion. I believe there is only One who can successfully answer your questions and until He does I can give you all the arguments I know, and you will have a ready made answer to them.

I am not putting you down because of that. It is just the way you are. Don't stop debating and challenging because if you give up, there is no hope for you.

 

[Clare73]

Makes me think of the story by G. F. Dempster who told of a homeless man who went to a church to find out if Christ really cared about him, but when he got to the door, he was turned away by one of the deacons who told him, "You are not the type we want here." He went away and decided to commit suicide, but by God's providence met a true Christian soul winner who was able to show him that Christ had no "select" people suitable to welcome into His kingdom, but His invitation was for all who came to Him. He said,
"He who comes to Me, I will in no wise cast him out."

Not the case here.

I think deep down our friend is seeking honest answers and is being put off mostly by the old worn out jargon which he is used to hearing and has ready made answers.

Then he should open his own thread in this forum, and let Christians answer his questions about Christianity.

If you want to enforce the conditions of the thread, go ahead. As for me, I am not going to reject him.

The non-Christian inquirer on this thread is James Lai.

This forum is set up so that only Christians respond to his inquiries. . .to avoid any dissing of Christianity.
You have a Christianity-rejecting poster responding to one who is inquiring about Christianity.
He is in no postion to give Christian answers to the questions of James Lai.

Fortunately for James, he doesn't need anyone to protect him from disparagers of Christianity.
So in this case, no harm, no foul.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not the case here.

Then he should open his own thread in this forum, and let Christians answer his questions about Christianity.

The non-Christian inquirer on this thread is James Lai.

This forum is set up so that only Christians respond to his inquiries. . .to avoid any dissing of Christianity.
You have a Christianity-rejecting poster responding to one who is inquiring about Christianity.
He is in no postion to give Christian answers to the questions of James Lai.

Fortunately for James, he doesn't need anyone to protect him from disparagers of Christianity.
So in this case, no harm, no foul.

If the OP decides to object to him posting on his thread, then he is the one to say it. Also, if our friend is really a total dyed in the wool atheist, then he wouldn't be posting on threads in a Christian forum. So, if there is a spark of hope there, and Jesus said that He would quench a smoking flax, then I wouldn't want to go against the Lord and stamp that spark out.