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Evolution is the Great Apostasy

Reply to Jack...

So you had a personal experience that convinced you God exists. Fine. However, why can't you understand that people who have not had your experience might doubt it?

Now, why in the world did you think the NDE involved a wormhole? It's not your experience that gives us problems, Elijah, it's the illogical jumping to conclusions from that experience

Jack. I didn't have a personal experience "that convinced me..." And you have every right in the world to doubt it... But when they pulled me up from the water and revived me, the next thing they were doing was jumping back in trying to see if there was an air pocket and a little cave or something down there, where I had maybe been breathing! There wasn't any... but I had been "gone" that long! And when you "go through the judgement" you don't come away with an "evolution like theory" of what it is you've encountered. It is such an encounter that it stamps a permanent awareness on your brain that sticks with you for the remainder of your life! He takes you back, day by day, through your entire life time. Every single thing you ever did or ever said, or ever dared, is right out there in the open! There is no place to run and hide - you FACE IT and He goes over the whole thing with you from one end to the other! "You might have tried this..." "You could have perhaps been kinder and it would have helped had you said..." This is the imput you are receiving, all the while everything that you have ever ploted, done, loved, spoke, acted, or purposed comes up in an absolutely full and stunning, technicolor, streaming review!

Five years AFTER all this happened to me, we moved to Florida. It was just at the time when "spinning reels" were coming on the market. My day went and bought one. We went out about waist deep in the water off of Seista Key, and he started throwing that line, trying to catch a fish. The very first time my eyes caught it, I immediately went back into the beach and ran along the shore, back to where we were staying just to find my brother and sister. Then I took the two of them back out to where my dad was fishing. "Just watch what happens to the fishing line," I said, "when he casts out the lure!" They watched as the bale wire dropped down, and suddenly, the fishing line was absolutely spilling off the spool of the new reel, as it went flying and straightening out across the waters a great distance. "That's exactly what happens to you when you die!" I said. "Everything that's in your mind, everything that you have ever said or done, is recorded inside your brain, and one day it is all going to come out, in front of God the Father, just like you see it happening right there. That's exactly what it's all about to die," I told them. Now do you "have to" believe it? Not for a flat moment! That's completely, your choice! Completely! Just don't get it in your mind that it doesn't happen, because there are thousands of NDE's who will tell you percisely, that this is exactly what happens - when you reach the next dimension, paradise, heaven, or whatever.

If you get on a plane and fly to London... come back... and you say "London was like this, and this, and this." What is it to you if someone says, "this guy had an expeience which caused him to think London is real! Just because 'he thinks London is real' doesn't mean everybody beleives it!" OK fine. Now here's the rub... what if there were 5000 people who could stand up and say, "Yea... been there, done that. London's real! I didn't get to stay there too long, however, and I came back too, and it's real." My point is - this is reality of the NDE books and organizations, and the voice of many thousands of persons who have had an NDE experience. So, now are you convinced? Heck no! And the answer is simply because you do not want to "let go" of being 100%, "who you are!" IF YOU DOUBT IT SO MUCH, I WOULD CHALLENGE YOU TO SIMPLY PRAY AND ASK GOD IF HE IS REAL OR NOT! Just tell him him, if he is real, and if Jesus is real, and if all this stuff is real, "please show me!" Don't make it namby pamby, tell Him you want Him to show you in some absolutely concrecret way, if He is real, so that you will be absolutely sure of it, and so you will never forget it.

Nor was I "jumping to conclusions!" If you were pulled up into a whirl wind and carried half way across whatever state you live in, and happened to be able to live through the experience, what whould you be saying? You would no doubt be quite ready to tell everything that YOU SAW and what WAS EXPERIENCED, and if I was an evolutinist, I would say definitely say, nan nah nahhh! That didn't happen to you! You might say, it was just like a worm hole, that picked me up at point x, and it put me down at y. Nah Nah Nah.

What ever the tunnel was that picked me up, I can absolutely guarantee you that there are many many hundreds of others who have suffered a 'NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCE " and a great majority of those NDE's have also done a little "time travel" as a result of being carried out of here, by the same sort of thing. It is a feature of reality you don't deal with on a regular basis - yet it certainly exists - and it moves you along from this dimension to the next, just as surely as you are breathing air, in and out, in and out, right now.

You can say it is "jumping to conclusuions" when I call it a "worm hole experience," but it bridges from this dimension to the next, which is the reality of it. Most people never live to tell about it . . . when their SOUL or their SPIRIT BODY gets SUCKED UP into a tunnel, which carries them off and they get jettsoned out at the other end - IN PARADISE OR HEAVEN! So I am not telling you that you must believe in God. Take your choice - it is up to you what happens when you leave this world. All I can tell you is, there IS DEFINITELY LIFE and people, trees, grass, water, sky, clouds and all that IN THE NEXT DIMENSION. And if you don't want to believe me, you can line up as many NDE's as you can find and ask them! Almost everyone of them will tell you about "existing" adter "LEAVING THE BODY" and being taken away, out of this world, often transported by a great tunnel of pure light.

In that regard, to put it bluntly, the earth is full of "theories" of evolutionists who are surely in for a rude awakening - when they cross from this world into the next. Your schooling and the entire school system has always had it's nose up in the air, and everyone denies even the most megar possibility that they are each and every one headed for a FINAL JUDGEMENT upon leaving this earth. I know that. But you do need to know that even while it was not taught to you from grade one up... it is nevertheless the absolute truth of the matter. Not jumping to conclusions, when I say, I EXPERIENCED IT. Not dreaming it up when I say, I was not brought up in a "Christian Home" or otherwise taught one tiny single thing, about any of this, prior to my actually NDE encounter. Not telling you someone put it into my mind - as I was not in any way precondition to expect, or anticipate, or otherwise pre forcast what I encountered. YOU WILL experience it for yourself, and I dare say it is going to be the most absolutely thrilling thing you have ever encountered! The outcome will obviously, not be anything along what I have experienced, but that will just be getting your "just deserts" I suppose. Hey. That's the way you want it - obviously. On the other hand, I may be way off base!

So - just to be absolutely sure that you're right... Let me suggest one more time that you just take a time out, get off by yourself somewhere, and pray and ask God to show you if He is real or not! Tell Him, if he's real, to show you in a "big way," so that you will know one way or another for absolute sure. As a person who has already been to Paradise, and went through the judgement, I think it would be good for you to give this a try, just to make sure you want to remain in the same camp that you're in now.

Sincerely, Elijah
 
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armed2010

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bsshutup.jpg
 
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Dear Armed2010.

I dare you to do it! Just take a little time out, get off by yourself somewhere, and pray and ask God to show you if He is real or not! Tell Him, if he's real, to show you in a "big way," so that you will know one way or another for absolute sure.

Elijah
 
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Mistermystery

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Bruce D McKay said:
Dear Armed2010.

I dare you to do it! Just take a little time out, get off by yourself somewhere, and pray and ask God to show you if He is real or not! Tell Him, if he's real, to show you in a "big way," so that you will know one way or another for absolute sure.

Elijah
These 2 previous posts had absolutly very little to do with evolution.
 
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Data

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Bruce D McKay said:
Dear Armed2010.

I dare you to do it! Just take a little time out, get off by yourself somewhere, and pray and ask God to show you if He is real or not! Tell Him, if he's real, to show you in a "big way," so that you will know one way or another for absolute sure.

Elijah
Hey, I did that for around 14 years! Yea!.. Turned out nothing ever happened.

Now - Back to evolution!
 
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Sopharos

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I've been reading this thread since 7:21PM and it is now 8:28PM. Can someone please calculated how many brain cells I lost for me? I saw this ad:

http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/ad_hoc.jpg

Called the number and found myself in this thread. I can't do it myself at the moment, my head hurts. I can see Greenland dancing around my head.

Man, I used to debate creationist looneys regularly in my days, but now my enthusiasm to debate waned by the day, accelerated by my cousin's "stop debating or you'll die of adernalin overload" warnings. And now, this. That's it, I've lost all faith in humanity.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Sopharos said:
I've been reading this thread since 7:21PM and it is now 8:28PM. Can someone please calculated how many brain cells I lost for me?
"You've damaged your brain, but no more than a weekend of binge drinking or five minutes on a cell phone..."

-- Worm King, Futurama, "Parasites Lost."
 
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Sopharos

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Bruce D McKay said:
I dare you to do it! Just take a little time out, get off by yourself somewhere, and pray and ask God to show you if He is real or not! Tell Him, if he's real, to show you in a "big way," so that you will know one way or another for absolute sure.

I did asked God to reveal himself to me in a "big way". I asked God to come and have a beer and watch rugby with me at the Holy Grail sports bar, repeatedly for the last 3 years. And God did not come.

Or did he? It was after I asked again sometime earlier this year that I met this lovely young Samoan chap named "Sam". Could he be the personification of God? Signs were very strong; he was very religious (like most Pacific Islanders), we talked extensively about rugby, a game "played in heaven", and he even dexcribed his home in Samoa; a tiny little fishing village where life is slow and fish are aplenty - sounds just like heaven.

Spooky.
 
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armed2010

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Bruce D McKay said:
Dear Armed2010.

I dare you to do it! Just take a little time out, get off by yourself somewhere, and pray and ask God to show you if He is real or not! Tell Him, if he's real, to show you in a "big way," so that you will know one way or another for absolute sure.

Elijah
Ive done so many times before, no effect. My image macro still stands :D
 
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lucaspa

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Bruce D McKay said:
Reply to Jack...



Jack. I didn't have a personal experience "that convinced me..." And you have every right in the world to doubt it... But when they pulled me up from the water and revived me, the next thing they were doing was jumping back in trying to see if there was an air pocket and a little cave or something down there, where I had maybe been breathing! There wasn't any... but I had been "gone" that long!
1. My name isn't "Jack".
2. So you had an experience that your rescuers couldn't explain. How did that convince you God exists?

And when you "go through the judgement" you don't come away with an "evolution like theory" of what it is you've encountered. It is such an encounter that it stamps a permanent awareness on your brain that sticks with you for the remainder of your life! He takes you back, day by day, through your entire life time. Every single thing you ever did or ever said, or ever dared, is right out there in the open! There is no place to run and hide - you FACE IT and He goes over the whole thing with you from one end to the other!
Now you are talking about a personal experience! Bruce, I would appreciate it if you got your stories straight.

Now you are talking a "near death experience". That's a personal experience, isn't it? So, you've had one and most people haven't. The problem I have is that most people with NDEs don't react like you.

I told them. Now do you "have to" believe it? Not for a flat moment! That's completely, your choice! Completely! Just don't get it in your mind that it doesn't happen, because there are thousands of NDE's who will tell you percisely, that this is exactly what happens - when you reach the next dimension, paradise, heaven, or whatever.
Most NDEs don't tell you this.

If you get on a plane and fly to London... come back... and you say "London was like this, and this, and this." What is it to you if someone says, "this guy had an expeience which caused him to think London is real! Just because 'he thinks London is real' doesn't mean everybody beleives it!" OK fine. Now here's the rub... what if there were 5000 people who could stand up and say, "Yea... been there, done that. London's real! I didn't get to stay there too long, however, and I came back too, and it's real." My point is - this is reality of the NDE books and organizations, and the voice of many thousands of persons who have had an NDE experience.
There are several differences:
1. Many people in the same situation of death do not have NDEs! So, even if I were near death, there is no guarantee I will have an NDE.
2. However, I can go to London. That I don't is my choice or to other circumstances.

So there is the difference, everyone can go to London, but not everyone can have or does have NDEs. Even under approximately the same circumstances, most people do not have NDEs. That's one of the major points of the Lancetstudy.

So, now are you convinced? Heck no! And the answer is simply because you do not want to "let go" of being 100%, "who you are!"
That's jumping to conclusions. As I showed above, there are other reasons.

IF YOU DOUBT IT SO MUCH, I WOULD CHALLENGE YOU TO SIMPLY PRAY AND ASK GOD IF HE IS REAL OR NOT! Just tell him him, if he is real, and if Jesus is real, and if all this stuff is real, "please show me!" Don't make it namby pamby, tell Him you want Him to show you in some absolutely concrecret way, if He is real, so that you will be absolutely sure of it, and so you will never forget it.
Not all people who do this get a response. And that's something you have to accept. Many do, but not all.

You would no doubt be quite ready to tell everything that YOU SAW and what WAS EXPERIENCED, and if I was an evolutinist, I would say definitely say, nan nah nahhh!
You are confusing "evolutionist" with "atheist" again. Not all evolutionists are atheists. In fact, only a minority of evolutionists are atheists.

You might say, it was just like a worm hole, that picked me up at point x, and it put me down at y. Nah Nah Nah.
But you didn't claim is was like a wormhole, did you? You claimed it was a wormhole! Don't you see the difference? If you had said "the experience was like I imagine a wormhole to be" then we would have had no problems with the claim. Read carefully what you write and what others are writing. Be sure you are saying precisely what you want to say and be careful not to read things into what other people write.

It is a feature of reality you don't deal with on a regular basis - yet it certainly exists - and it moves you along from this dimension to the next, just as surely as you are breathing air, in and out, in and out, right now.
NDEs exist. But again you are jumpipng to conclusions. You are assuming that this is moving "from this dimension to the next". That may not be what is happening at all. It's your hypothesis of what happened. However, an alternative hypothesis is that it is your imagination at work. Just like dreams are your imagination and do not correspond to objective reality.

All I can tell you is, there IS DEFINITELY LIFE and people, trees, grass, water, sky, clouds and all that IN THE NEXT DIMENSION.
Let's be precise. What you can tell me definitely is that you saw life, people, trees, grass, water, sky, clouds in your NDE. If I take other NDEs, I don't get any of that, only an out-of-body experience and sometimes a tunnel of light.

And if you don't want to believe me, you can line up as many NDE's as you can find and ask them! Almost everyone of them will tell you about "existing" adter "LEAVING THE BODY" and being taken away, out of this world, often transported by a great tunnel of pure light.
See? :) But many of those NDEs never get beyond the tunnel. Of those that do, many report a realm of light without the entities you report.

In that regard, to put it bluntly, the earth is full of "theories" of evolutionists who are surely in for a rude awakening - when they cross from this world into the next.
Again the mistake of thinking that "evolutionists" are only those who don't believe in deity or an afterlife. Not true. At least half of all evolutionary biologists have been believers. So they won't get any "rude awakening", will they?

Your schooling and the entire school system has always had it's nose up in the air, and everyone denies even the most megar possibility that they are each and every one headed for a FINAL JUDGEMENT upon leaving this earth. I know that.
My schooling and the entire school system doesn't talk about final judgement at all. That's a particular religious view and is neither advocated nor denied in public school.
 
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lucaspa

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Mistermystery

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lucaspa said:
Not the scientific theory. But if you look, the link is that Bruce thinks that evolution = atheism. So, as soon as someone believes in God, they stop being an evolutionist. He's never been to: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/religion/faith/statement_01.html
I still fail to see how these posts had anything to do with evolution or the topic at hand. Also: I fully endorse the macro at hand.
 
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lucaspa

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Mistermystery said:
I still fail to see how these posts had anything to do with evolution or the topic at hand. Also: I fully endorse the macro at hand.
(sigh) You are not looking at it from Bruce's side. I said the posts had nothing to do with evolution the scientific theory that we are talking about.

What you need to understand is the transformation that has taken place inside Bruce's head. In Bruce's world, evolution = atheism and creationism = Christianity. Therefore any evidence that indicates the existence of deity becomes evidence for creationism and evidence against evolution. In Bruce's world. Not in the real world, because in the real world evolution is not atheism and creationism is not Christianity.

However, in a discussion the point is to understand and accurately know the other person's points. This isn't a debate where the object is to "win" and beat up an "opponent". So, we are discussing evolution and whether it is apostasy. Now, if you make the transformation Bruce does, then indeed evolution becomes apostasy. Evolution becomes deity and replaces it. The counter is not to say Bruce's posts are irrelevant, but rather to understand his link and show that the premise that he is basing his argument on -- evolution is atheism -- is wrong. If that is wrong, then all his arguments of NDE and his personal experience become void for this discussion.

Of course, I took it a bit further and used his examples of NDE to discuss how science works. But that is the professor in me. :)
 
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Mistermystery

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lucaspa said:
(sigh) You are not looking at it from Bruce's side. I said the posts had nothing to do with evolution the scientific theory that we are talking about.

What you need to understand is the transformation that has taken place inside Bruce's head. In Bruce's world, evolution = atheism and creationism = Christianity. Therefore any evidence that indicates the existence of deity becomes evidence for creationism and evidence against evolution. In Bruce's world. Not in the real world, because in the real world evolution is not atheism and creationism is not Christianity.

However, in a discussion the point is to understand and accurately know the other person's points. This isn't a debate where the object is to "win" and beat up an "opponent". So, we are discussing evolution and whether it is apostasy. Now, if you make the transformation Bruce does, then indeed evolution becomes apostasy. Evolution becomes deity and replaces it. The counter is not to say Bruce's posts are irrelevant, but rather to understand his link and show that the premise that he is basing his argument on -- evolution is atheism -- is wrong. If that is wrong, then all his arguments of NDE and his personal experience become void for this discussion.

Of course, I took it a bit further and used his examples of NDE to discuss how science works. But that is the professor in me. :)
Myeah I suppose.
 
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Thank you for the explanation of how I supposedly think. I've known persons who were the head of the whole Wica for most of the State of Florida, and they attended Church, every Sunday. They said they truly believed in God, moved among the very top leaders in a popular Baptist Church, and were fully ready to sacrifice their own daughter's virginity to a craven demon, with an anticipated "great night of joy and delight," on the occasion of their fair daughter's 18th birtday! In other words, I don't think that everyone who claims to be a Christian, is a Christian, even if they "think" they are and say they are. If they've dedicated themselves to somehow fulfilling what the Lord would have them do with their life, then that's what they need to be doing. If they are engaged in a philosophical scheme - that presses every issue in terms that deny not only the scriptures in the Bible - while openly or secretly wishing to go counter against every ancient text on this planet, then they are surely unaware of the "fig tree signs" that are now coming upon the whole world. While they mostly wish or appear to want to thumb their nose at any and every form of religion or religious believe, I find them to be "Christians" in name only, and hardly that.

I do not mix up things such as evolutionists=atheists; nor does any other who is opposed to "seducing spirits," I Tim 4:1.
We have seen the great "falling away" that was to come first! We have seen All Israel restored to Palestine, and no more 'pulled up out of their own land.' Amos 9:15 The title they hold is clear - in hundreds of millions of Bibles now extant in more than 5,000 languages of the earth, but the nations are soon to be plunged into that mighty whirl wind of events, "Jacob's trouble," Jer 30:6,7, and it is going to be a time like which there has been no other, in the past, nor shall there ever be, in the future. Mat 23:21 Behold, I show you a mystery! I Cor 15:51

So I say unto you! Why waste your words trying to "explain me away," were it not that I have presented the truth unto you and all others as to the past history of this earth! Have you not heard how even one of your own, by the name of Vogel has even made models of an expanding earth! And he was not even a little aware of the "Greenland Basin" or there being a time when Greenland obviously popped up on end, and then turned as it dropped to it's present position. Nor were the polar ice caps melting at the time. But you or anyone else in this forum can go to the web page, GLOBAL EXPANSION TECTONICS, A MORE RATIONAL EXPLANATION, by James Maxlow, and see for yourself how Maxlow states that "Vogel (1983, 1984, 1990): to date has produced the most comprehensive set of models, or "terrella" as he referred to them, at diameters of 40%, 60%, 66% and 75% of the present sized Earth (Click on URL below to see... Figures 7) plus a unique representation of a 55% reassembled globe inside a transparent plastic sphere of the present diameter."

Moreover, "Vogel's models again confirmed the greater dispersion of the southern continents, and he noted also a marked westward movement of all the northern continents relative to the southern continents, along what is now referred to as the "Tethyan shear", described by Carey (1976). These models, based on mid-oceanic ridge systems and sea floor spreading zones, demonstrated to Vogel that, in general, the continents tended to move out radially from their Precambrian positions to reach their modern positions. Vogel commented that this is an "odd coincidence for any theory except that of expansion of the Earth". To see the Vogel models click on the following URL, and scroll down to figure #7.

Click to see Vogel's (1983) Models - With Many other models at various stages of expansion.


I don't know if he was a Christian or not! But, "From his extensive modeling Vogel (1990) gave a comprehensive outline of the fit of continental fragments under the headings of Gondwanaland and Laurasia. Development of the oceans, with increasing Earth radius, was considered to have commenced during the Mesozoic, after final dislocation of the continental fragments, due to widening of the main mid-oceanic fracture zones. Vogel went on to consider the two hemispheres as complementary counterparts, with no Tethys Ocean or other "sphenochasms" required.

Click the URL above, and see! "Vogel concluded from his modeling that: at a reduced Earth radius of 55% to 60%
of the present,
the continental outlines can be fitted together to form a closed crust; the positions of the different continents with respect to each other remain generally constant, with their separation caused by a "radial expansion of the Earth" and; the cause of the movements of continents resulted from an accelerating increase in radius with time, in accordance with sea-floor spreading."

"Vogel commented that 'an accordance of these three phenomena cannot be accidental', but due to "processes operating from within the interior of the Earth resulting in Earth expansion."

Have you ever read 'There are many who are NOT to be reconed among the nations...' 'Behold...'

Submitted by, Bruce D. McKay Elijah

"Let us hold fast the confession... without wavering... for He is faithful that promised; ... and so much the more as ye see the day approaching." Heb 10:23, 25​
 
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