• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

"Evolution is a theory, not a fact..."

Status
Not open for further replies.

tryptophan

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2004
485
23
41
Missouri
✟15,741.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Others
I'm not sure if this has been posted here yet.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041108/sfm123_1.html

I don't care what you feel about the evolution debate. This sticker is teaching ignorance to students. By saying that evolution is just a theory, it is implying that a theory is not a very well established principle. But it is.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that I believe that the theory of evolution has some very severe flaws. My argument should not be that it is just a theory. My argument should be that it does not have enough evidence to be considered a theory.

By the way, I have no problem with telling students to address issues with an open mind. But I have no idea why a sticker would be necessary to get that point across.
 

homewardbound

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2004
605
42
Sweet Home Alabama
✟25,469.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I don't see anything about that sticker that implies evolution is not well-established. The fact of the matter is it IS a theory...whether it is well-established and supported by scientific research or not is not even the issue here. The reason this sticker is being used is because most educators present evolution as fact, not theory. That was the case when I was in school, and my kids have had the exact same experience. Informing students that evolution is a theory is doing them a service in my opinion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mhess13
Upvote 0

daveleau

In all you do, do it for Christ and w/ Him in mind
Apr 12, 2004
8,984
703
50
Bossier City, LA (removed from his native South C
✟30,474.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Please read "Darwin On Trial". This is the first book I have read that treats the science behind evolution with scientific evidence. There are too many holes for it to be fact. Ask someone well versed in evolution about 2 things: 1- where did the first matter that formed life come from (they'll say either primordial ooze, or big bang or comets...or even spaceships like Stephen Hawking, but where did each of these come from?) 2- How do the small mutations (natural selection is the only fact in evolution, but evolution has twisted this observation into a creationary theory called fact) create new complex organism, organs and tissues?

They will claim either saltation or punctuated equilibrium depending on their stance in evolution. But, there is zero evidence to support it. There are no transitional forms in any fossil record. Darwin stated plainly that if natural selection was the driving force in evolution (as scientists stand by), then the fossil record would be filled with these transitional forms. There are more frauds than transitional forms (Piltdown man, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny to reference two such frauds(recognized as frauds by evolutionists)) They (Gould and Darwin both) even plainly stated that these are not based on scientific evidence, but logic.

I invite you to read the above book since it is a superb treatment of the subject of evolution from a strictly scientific argument. Johnsen is a Christian, but he does not use his theological standing in his arguing.

Evolution is not a fact in scientific terms. It is a theory and the only reason it is being defended so fervently is because there is no other plausible theory that has been proposed (according to scientists). A fact has evidence behind it, and there is none other than small mutations and natural selection that could not create new complex organs without being driven by something, which evolutionists strictly deny.

Evolution is a religion more than it is a fact. Evolution takes much greater faith to believe in than God.

(note to the theistic evolutionists, all references to evolution are exclusively meant for atheistic evolution. I am not a theistic evolutionist.)

Two notes about my background as well 1- I've been a Christian for over 20 years. 2- I was a biology major and took a class on evolution from the Citadel and am a published former endocrinologist that worked in gene expression of endocrine cells. I am not bragging, but merely stating the fact (not theory, like evolution :D) that I am not a layman when it comes to evolution as the majority here are.
 
Upvote 0

statrei

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2004
2,649
30
Indiana/Virginia
✟3,125.00
Faith
SDA
tryptophan said:
By the way, I have no problem with telling students to address issues with an open mind. But I have no idea why a sticker would be necessary to get that point across.
It demonstrates that those who believe in creation are convinced that they are losing the battle for the minds of our young people. This is interesting if we agree that Creation is the explanation for the complexity of life. Why has evolution become such a powerful force if it is just a johhny-come-lately? This is the question that the church needs to answer before engaging in this battle.
 
Upvote 0

homewardbound

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2004
605
42
Sweet Home Alabama
✟25,469.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
statrei said:
It demonstrates that those who believe in creation are convinced that they are losing the battle for the minds of our young people. This is interesting if we agree that Creation is the explanation for the complexity of life. Why has evolution become such a powerful force if it is just a johhny-come-lately? This is the question that the church needs to answer before engaging in this battle.
It could be argued that this demonstrates that there are still people out there who are concerned enough about the battle for young people's minds that they want to make sure the battlefield remains even.

Evolution is a powerful force because it is based on human endeavor (scientific research) rather than divine revelation, and thus is quite attractive to the masses. Besides, our public education systems aren't allowed to bring God into the classroom. They can, however, bring science to the classroom, and evolution is the de facto scientific explanation for the origins of life.
 
Upvote 0

daveleau

In all you do, do it for Christ and w/ Him in mind
Apr 12, 2004
8,984
703
50
Bossier City, LA (removed from his native South C
✟30,474.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, the textbooks teach it as fact. And, they still teach refuted ideas (refuted as fraud by Gould) like ontogeny recapitulates ontogeny. Evolution has not been regarded as fact by scientists and portrayed as such in the textbooks until recently. The reason they are putting these stickers on is because of this teaching of evolution as fact. Teaching evolution as fact undermines the main teaching of science, the scientific method. In looking at the practice of scientists and the teachings of evolution next to the method, it can confuse the thoughtful student who understand the scientific method.
 
Upvote 0

statrei

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2004
2,649
30
Indiana/Virginia
✟3,125.00
Faith
SDA
homewardbound said:
It could be argued that this demonstrates that there are still people out there who are concerned enough about the battle for young people's minds that they want to make sure the battlefield remains even.

Evolution is a powerful force because it is based on human endeavor (scientific research) rather than divine revelation, and thus is quite attractive to the masses. Besides, our public education systems aren't allowed to bring God into the classroom. They can, however, bring science to the classroom, and evolution is the de facto scientific explanation for the origins of life.
The idea expressed here is popular but flawed. Human endeavor cannot discover anything that has not been divinely revealed. When we make a difference between human endeavor and divine revelation we have immediately denounced the very concept of Creation we claim to advocate. This is a major source of our problem.
 
Upvote 0

daveleau

In all you do, do it for Christ and w/ Him in mind
Apr 12, 2004
8,984
703
50
Bossier City, LA (removed from his native South C
✟30,474.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:) Humans discovered communism. Humans discovered torture. Humans discovered murder. Evolution is a man-made theory based on God's revelation of natural selection and mutation. These are fact, but the ideas laid on top of these facts are flawed and based on human logic. There is no evidence for speciation through natural selection or mutation or sexual passing of traits as scientists purport.
 
Upvote 0

statrei

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2004
2,649
30
Indiana/Virginia
✟3,125.00
Faith
SDA
daveleau said:
:) Humans discovered communism. Humans discovered torture. Humans discovered murder. Evolution is a man-made theory based on God's revelation of natural selection and mutation. These are fact, but the ideas laid on top of these facts are flawed and based on human logic. There is no evidence for speciation through natural selection or mutation or sexual passing of traits as scientists purport.
All you have shown is that humans are apt to make conclusory errors. This is true in theology as well as in other areas of science. The reason why religion has not influence in science is because religion has taken a position that it is in possession of absolute truth when this is demonstrably not true. Theologians make mistakes in interpreting what God has revealed in the same way that scientists do. Until theologians are humble enough to come down from their lofty towers the conflicts will continue.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here is the best explanation I have seen of this topic:

Evolution is both a Theory and a Fact

When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was." Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:
Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms. - Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun. The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution. - Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Also:
Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs. - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972

One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:
A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century. - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

There are readers of these newsgroups who reject evolution for religious reasons. In general these readers oppose both the fact of evolution and theories of mechanisms, although some anti-evolutionists have come to realize that there is a difference between the two concepts. That is why we see some leading anti-evolutionists admitting to the fact of "microevolution"--they know that evolution can be demonstrated. These readers will not be convinced of the "facthood" of (macro)evolution by any logical argument and it is a waste of time to make the attempt. The best that we can hope for is that they understand the argument that they oppose. Even this simple hope is rarely fulfilled. There are some readers who are not anti-evolutionist but still claim that evolution is "only" a theory which can't be proven. This group needs to distinguish between the fact that evolution occurs and the theory of the mechanism of evolution.

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."

In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.

Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists.

The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing. Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact. For the evidence in favor of it is as voluminous, diverse, and convincing as in the case of any other well established fact of science concerning the existence of things that cannot be directly seen, such as atoms, neutrons, or solar gravitation .... So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.

- H. J. Muller, "One Hundred Years Without Darwin Are Enough" School Science and Mathematics 59, 304-305. (1959) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism op cit.

In any meaningful sense evolution is a fact, but there are various theories concerning the mechanism of evolution.
 
Upvote 0

daveleau

In all you do, do it for Christ and w/ Him in mind
Apr 12, 2004
8,984
703
50
Bossier City, LA (removed from his native South C
✟30,474.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
tryptophan said:
You are missing my point. A theory by its definition is fact. The debate should be whether evolution has enough supporting evidence for it to be considered a theory.

What???

Theory: 4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>

Fact: 4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality
- in fact : in truth

Theory is a conglomeration of facts used to describe a process. Evolution is a taking the facts of Nat Sel and mutation to explain the origins of life. They base their theory on two facts, but is not itself fact.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, it is NOT a conglomeration of facts. The theory of evolution fits under definition number 5 from your dictionary: a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena.

You really need to read what I posted above entitled "Evolution is both a Fact and a Theory"

Facts and Theories are very different things. Facts are data, theories just explain the data. Theories are NEVER proven, btw, so the phrase "an unproven theory" is nonsensical. Just as the phrase "it is a theory, not a fact" is a nonsensical statement.
 
Upvote 0

tryptophan

Well-Known Member
May 28, 2004
485
23
41
Missouri
✟15,741.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Others
mhess13 said:
The sticker is a great idea. The problem is that it doesn't go FAR ENOUGH. It should mention that evolution isn't even a good theory, must be taken entirely on faith and that evolution is religious in nature.
http://www.evolutionfantasy.org/
There's tons of evidence for evolution as both a fact and a theory. I have no idea why the author of the web site feels there is no evidence to support it.
 
Upvote 0

daveleau

In all you do, do it for Christ and w/ Him in mind
Apr 12, 2004
8,984
703
50
Bossier City, LA (removed from his native South C
✟30,474.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Theories are simply hypothesis with some evidence. Facts (in this context) are theories that are proven. Evolution is not fact. That would mean that everything within it is not up for debate. This is far far far from the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Kripost

Senior Veteran
Mar 23, 2004
2,085
84
45
✟2,681.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
tryptophan said:
I'm not sure if this has been posted here yet.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041108/sfm123_1.html

I don't care what you feel about the evolution debate. This sticker is teaching ignorance to students. By saying that evolution is just a theory, it is implying that a theory is not a very well established principle. But it is.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that I believe that the theory of evolution has some very severe flaws. My argument should not be that it is just a theory. My argument should be that it does not have enough evidence to be considered a theory.

By the way, I have no problem with telling students to address issues with an open mind. But I have no idea why a sticker would be necessary to get that point across.

So, what do they exactly mean by "just a theory"? If what they mean is something which has unsolved gaps, why not do the same for others? Astronomy and nuclear physics are choke-full of them.

On the other hand, if fact are indisputable explainatory statements, then very few of them do exist in terms of science, since proofs (in he positive sense) can only be given in mathematics, and almost all ideas in biology, chemistry and physics has the possibility that it can be disproven some day.

In other words, usage of labels is to misunderstand the framework used in science.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.