Evolution is a Fact

[thaumaturgy]

It is a spiritual thing that I'm sure you'll deny since you've not experienced it. Someone, might have been Thaumartgy(sp?) said he'd been a Christian and could never get to the bottom of it. It's a whole other discussion, but being in church, studying biblical things and having all sorts of biblical knowledge, speaking greek and hebrew......that doesn't make you a Christian.

Hey, thanks for manhandling my spiritual journey! It was all done "wrong"! Whew!

Sorry, Ursie. Religion may bring you many wonderful things. It brought me none of that. Perhaps it is my brain chemistry. But don't for one instant ever think you can make reasoned commentary on someone else's attempts to understand God and faith.

Especially someone you don't know.

That makes you someone who knows alot about God, but it doesn't mean that you KNOW GOD HIMSELF.

When I have a relationship with someone it is a two-way street. That was not my experience with God. I didn't perceive that I was being communicated with, despite my nearly hourly communication with Him.

The fact you had that experience makes me happy for you. It brings you comfort, that's good.

But don't expect to get it taught in the science classes. Which is what the main aspects of the debate are for me.

It might mean that, but it's not assured just because you looked heavily into the things of God. Many people come to God, but they are not willing to be humble and so they never hear from God.

So are you suggesting I didn't do it right? I was insufficiently humble? Like someone who doesn't know a particular science yet critiques it? That kind of humility?

Sorry, but again you fail. I may appear to be rather overt here, but I guarantee you if you read my posts closely you'll see I live in terror that I could be mistaken. My humility is always on display. In just about any case when I make a claim I provide a SOURCE link so others may check it out in case I am wrong.

Moses was described as the most humble man on earth, that is why he was able to hear so clearly from God.

According to those who think Moses wrote the Pentateuch, MOSES described himself as the most humble man on earth, correct?

The things of God are a mystery and foolishness to those who don't believe. It is only as the Spirit of God brings light and understanding that we begin to comprehend the truths found in God's Word. But enough about that, when you're ready, you'll search it out for yourselves.

But clearly if one comes to a different conclusion from you they either weren't sufficiently humble or they didn't get to know God, just know about him, right?

So if one doesn't arrive at your destination they must have done somethign wrong. Is that the kind of humility I'm striving for?

I believe I've demonstated that insults have been made, there are many more that are couched in very careful language throughout the entirety of this post, from the very first page.

It is sad when language gets brusque. That is an unfortunate spin off of web anonymity.

The tone of this post was, from the beginning, meant to be an argument by the original poster.

There are few threads on here that don't work into a debate. It's a place to blow off steam. Some people like to argue this stuff.

Why you want to fight about something you so strongly believe in I don't know.

You need to get out and meet more people. There are people who love to debate. But of course for myself I like to debate technical issues, even vigorously. But that is why I find posts devoid of technical content expressing a love of personal incredulity or ignorance of a subject to be quite needling.

But part of the "value" of debating these things is it keeps the points sharp. Regardless of which side you are on, if you can defend your point you might need a "workout" every-so-often.

That's why I do this. I like to argue. Always have. Since my days in college when my roommate was a philosophy student we debated all manner of stuff from the sacred to the profane from the deep to the pointlessly silly!

It's kind of like "sports" for some folks.

You wonder at why creationists would argue, it is because we want, at the very least, the opportunity to teach an opposing viewpoint in the schools as well.

No one wonders why you argue. Trust me.

But you can't teach anti-science in a science classroom. End of story. As a scientist I will never allow it to occur on my watch. Just as I'm guessing most creationists wouldn't sit sanguinely by seeing their kids being taught Hindu Creation stories as "science".

Creationism isn't science. Not even close.

In addition the "science" creationism has produced needs to stand up to the same scrutiny the rest of science submits itself to daily. It is disrespectful to the hardworking scientists to have some half-baked stuff accepted just to "balance" the scales.

If you wish to see creationism enshrined as science, make it science. DO science.

If you are so open-minded and feel that the evidence you have can be completely supportive of the Theory of Evolution, why are you afraid to allow Creationism equal time as another 'theory'?

In all honesty would you allow your children to be preached to by an Imam in your Sunday school classes? Would you be happy to have Native American Creation Myths taught to your kids in school science class?

Where do you draw the line?

But more importantly why do you need religion in a science class????

If that is true, let it be shown to be so in educational institutions. Let the students choose for themselves.

Again, you need to be careful what you want others to do. Would you do the same with your kids and drugs? What about conservatives and their famous "love" of sex education?

It is a fine precedent to put stuff in front of kids that they have no idea how to process. That is why I suspect Creationists want creationism in schools. They can't make their case to adult non-creationists so they have to peddle it to kids for whom all things are possible. It's called indoctrination.

The very second Creationism does real science that can stand up to scrutiny to the same level as real science, then we can discuss having it in the schools.

No one is stopping Creationists from learning how to do science except creationists it seems. So many seem quite proud of their ignorance of science.

 

[TerranceL]

New fallacy: Argumentum ad martyrdom -- I perceive that they don't like me, therefore I am correct.

Tinker Grey's Law?

 

[hangback]

As an aside, my father believes strongly in evolution and I really don't know what my mother believes on the subject.

If it's any consolation to you, we have never had a creationist on this forum who had parents that were creationists, never, not never, ever, every creationist here found creationism on their own, now don't you think that is absolutely fantastic not to mention completely unbelievable.

I honestly think that creationism has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, nothing whatsoever, why? because it would seem that all creationists tell lies and Christians are not supposed to tell lies, so creationists are either not true Christians or they think that telling lies is a part of being a Christian.

 

[Sanguis]

I walk by faith, not by sight.

Is that why you stumble and trip up so often?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Is that why you stumble and trip up so often?

perhaps if he took off the blindfold?

 

[Cabal]

"Look, no offense, but I'm not going to pander to willful ignorance."

"I'm going to be honest, if you believe that you are flat out ignorant. We know a great deal."

"Because your claim that transitional fossils don't exist is absurd.

It is ignorant and absurd. This isn't an insult, it's the truth.

Wow, our great Christian friend, Laconic Student seems to be the worst offender. Not representing well LS.

And you would know, right? Because if there's one thing that Jesus did it was outright refuse to listen to what people were saying to him and put on the victim complex - oh wait....

I believe I've demonstated that insults have been made, there are many more that are couched in very careful language throughout the entirety of this post, from the very first page. The tone of this post was, from the beginning, meant to be an argument by the original poster. That poster knew that posting "Evolution is a Fact" is an inflamatory statement so clearly his desire was for a fight.

It IS a fact. It's been done, it's been demonstrated in labs.

Is a thread entitled "2+2=4" inflammatory now?

Why you want to fight about something you so strongly believe in I don't know.

Yeah, why have passion for something you're interested in that isn't Hallelujah Jesus, right?

It's already being taught in the vast majority of educational institutions around the world. Why is it necessary to beat that dead horse?

Because empiricism should never succumb to a popular vote, on any level or scale.

You wonder at why creationists would argue, it is because we want, at the very least, the opportunity to teach an opposing viewpoint in the schools as well. If you are so open-minded and feel that the evidence you have can be completely supportive of the Theory of Evolution, why are you afraid to allow Creationism equal time as another 'theory'? Why is it such a threat to you if it is so completely unbelievable and insuportable?

Would you allow Satanism to be demonstrated in a church?

If that is true, let it be shown to be so in educational institutions. Let the students choose for themselves.

No. Science doesn't have to prove anything to you, it's already proven its worth in labs and in practice. You don't have to give any idea that comes along equal time to justify your own position there. Christians don't feel obligated to give other religions equal church time, so do unto others and let the science class be for science.

 

[TheOutsider]

I apologize for saying that Ursie was "acting like a moron". I should have said that she is "purposefully unaware and uninformed" on the subject that she is currently try to discuss with other people. You did admit that you haven't even tried to understand the science side of this and never will.

 

[Ursie]

If it's any consolation to you, we have never had a creationist on this forum who had parents that were creationists, never, not never, ever, every creationist here found creationism on their own, now don't you think that is absolutely fantastic not to mention completely unbelievable.

I honestly think that creationism has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity, nothing whatsoever, why? because it would seem that all creationists tell lies and Christians are not supposed to tell lies, so creationists are either not true Christians or they think that telling lies is a part of being a Christian.

You make heavy assumptions. So what, no one who did not grow up believing in creation would ever become a creationist later in life? Come on, be realistic. People's philosophies change with time quite often. Who knows, next week you might become a creationist yourself! (horror of horrors!)

And FYI, I do not consider myself to be humble. I try to be humble, but it goes against the nature of every human to be so and that certainly comes out in my own nature. However, I am working towards greater humilty.

Thaum, I do like debate, but I find it frustrating when insults become the name of the game. For all the people on the post claiming that I'm trying to be a martyr, they are missing the point. The point is that children on the playground hurl insults because they can't think of anything better to say or have no ability to prove their point. That is what is happening here, as far as I can tell. You can call me a martyr all you want, I have no desire to be one. I simply want to ask honest questions and get understandable answers. I believe there are a thousand loophole in your so called 'fact' of evolution but none of you will admit that there are any. You think if you sew up one hole that the rest of them will all disappear into nothingness. You are misguided.

And yes, I can make a judgement based on what I have learned from the bible about a true seeker of God. I know that Jesus said that His sheep will hear his voice, but many who claim to be His sheep do not.That means they are not His sheep. Or John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If you don't like it, take it up with Scripture, I am not the Author, simply repeating what is in Scripture. There is a great deal more in Scripture about this topic, but I will not share it unless someone asks honestly for me to supply it. You don't have to accept this as truth, but that doesn't change the fact that it is.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Tinker Grey's Law?

Heh. I should be so lucky. Thanks for the good thought.

 

[AV1611VET]

You make heavy assumptions.

I was just kidding, Ursie; honest I was.

 

[laconicstudent]

Someone asked for specific quotes of those slinging mud, this question was asked repeatedly so I suppose it's best to put em down to quiet the questions.

(snipped)

"I seriously doubt anyone has ever made a claim that stupid."

"Look, no offense, but I'm not going to pander to willful ignorance."

"I'm going to be honest, if you believe that you are flat out ignorant. We know a great deal."

"Because your claim that transitional fossils don't exist is absurd.

1. A criticism of your straw man misrepresentation of Evolutionary theory.
2. You asked for photos, I provided them, then you started claiming how they weren't real. What could that be but deliberate ignorance?
3. You claimed we knew nothing about the human body. To say that is most definitely ignorant. It isn't an unqualified insult, its a statement of fact.
4. It is absurd. I mean come on, we have thousands, all dated, all showing clear progression their morphology to our modern form.

Originally Posted by Ursie

Do you truly believe that people are complete idiots who do not agree with you about the THEORY of evolution?
​

Just ignorant."[/quote]

Saying someone is ignorant isn't an insult. I'm ignorant of art history and tax law. Would you rather I lie and say I thought creationists were well educated in the biological sciences? When they clearly aren't?

Wow, our great Christian friend, Laconic Student seems to be the worst offender. Not representing well LS.

Ad hominem. Just because you feel that it is an insult for people to tell you that you clearly don't know what you are talking about, doesn't mean the rest of us consider it as such.

If I went to a discussion of art history, and tried to participate with my limited knowledge, and someone remarked with a pained expression that I really didn't know what I was talking about, I would blush and agree, and shut up and try and learn something. As opposed to throwing a tantrum and claiming that I did and he was being a meanie for saying I didn't.

"When it comes to creationism you should never be shocked, they will say and do anything (no matter how crazy) to defend the beliefs of their parents, absolutely nothing is sacred, denial of everything that tells them that their parents got it wrong is the uppermost thing in their minds, all of which is perfectly understandable. "

As an aside, my father believes strongly in evolution and I really don't know what my mother believes on the subject. I've come to the belief on my own, having reviewed enough evidence to trust what the bible says. Although, even before the evidence, I knew the bible was correct. It is a spiritual thing that I'm sure you'll deny since you've not experienced it. Someone, might have been Thaumartgy(sp?) said he'd been a Christian and could never get to the bottom of it. It's a whole other discussion, but being in church, studying biblical things and having all sorts of biblical knowledge, speaking greek and hebrew......that doesn't make you a Christian. That makes you someone who knows alot about God, but it doesn't mean that you KNOW GOD HIMSELF. It might mean that, but it's not assured just because you looked heavily into the things of God. Many people come to God, but they are not willing to be humble and so they never hear from God. Moses was described as the most humble man on earth, that is why he was able to hear so clearly from God.

The physical origins of the world are by definition not a spiritual matter. So I fail to see the point.

The things of God are a mystery and foolishness to those who don't believe. It is only as the Spirit of God brings light and understanding that we begin to comprehend the truths found in God's Word. But enough about that, when you're ready, you'll search it out for yourselves.

Your arrogance is in assuming you are spiritually superior to those here.

I believe I've demonstated that insults have been made

You've shown a number of examples of me making a factual statement on your level of science education.

, there are many more that are couched in very careful language throughout the entirety of this post, from the very first page. The tone of this post was, from the beginning, meant to be an argument by the original poster. That poster knew that posting "Evolution is a Fact" is an inflamatory statement so clearly his desire was for a fight.

That Evolution is a fact isn't at all inflammatory in scientific circles. It is virtually universally accepted by all of those who are actually educated in the field. That should be an indication of something, and no, it doesn't mean there's a conspiracy of evil atheists.

Why you want to fight about something you so strongly believe in I don't know.

And Creationists like Kent Hovind keep calling us evil atheists and frauds over it.

It's already being taught in the vast majority of educational institutions around the world. Why is it necessary to beat that dead horse?

Because some special interests groups keep trying to smuggle Creationism into schools via intelligent design maybe?

You wonder at why creationists would argue, it is because we want, at the very least, the opportunity to teach an opposing viewpoint in the schools as well.

Alternate viewpoints, maybe. But you don't have the right to teach actual factual error in the science classroom.

If you are so open-minded and feel that the evidence you have can be completely supportive of the Theory of Evolution, why are you afraid to allow Creationism equal time as another 'theory'?

Because it isn't a theory. It is a hypothesis that was refuted 150 years ago. It has no supporting evidence. It has been positively DISPROVEN.

Why is it such a threat to you if it is so completely unbelievable and insuportable?

Because we typically don't like children learning falsehoods in the science classroom?

Why wouldn't we dislike this?

If that is true, let it be shown to be so in educational institutions. Let the students choose for themselves.

Choose between a story and physical reality? Sure, why not? But we're not going to waste valuable teaching hours explaining the hypothesis that was falsified over a century ago in a modern science classroom.

 

[laconicstudent]

You make heavy assumptions. So what, no one who did not grow up believing in creation would ever become a creationist later in life? Come on, be realistic. People's philosophies change with time quite often. Who knows, next week you might become a creationist yourself! (horror of horrors!)

Doubtful, because I'm actually in the sciences. I work every day with all the research and evidence that supports evolution. My school has a library with literally thousands of studies that support Evolution.

Creationism has 0.

Thaum, I do like debate, but I find it frustrating when insults become the name of the game. For all the people on the post claiming that I'm trying to be a martyr, they are missing the point. The point is that children on the playground hurl insults because they can't think of anything better to say or have no ability to prove their point. That is what is happening here, as far as I can tell. You can call me a martyr all you want, I have no desire to be one. I simply want to ask honest questions and get understandable answers.

Alright.....

I believe there are a thousand loophole in your so called 'fact' of evolution but none of you will admit that there are any. You think if you sew up one hole that the rest of them will all disappear into nothingness. You are misguided.

You have yet to actually point out any without having to resort to straw men, red herrings. You think a hole exists where there isn't one. Again, you simply do not understand this because your education did not go into enough depth in the sciences for you to see this.

I doubt you'd argue with an construction engineer over his calculations for the weight a bridge can bear. So why do you argue with thousands of PhD's and a century and a half of research that has proven this theory on the basis of personal incredulity?

And yes, I can make a judgement based on what I have learned from the bible about a true seeker of God. I know that Jesus said that His sheep will hear his voice, but many who claim to be His sheep do not.That means they are not His sheep. Or John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Another irrelevant scriptural argument.

If you don't like it, take it up with Scripture, I am not the Author, simply repeating what is in Scripture. There is a great deal more in Scripture about this topic, but I will not share it unless someone asks honestly for me to supply it. You don't have to accept this as truth, but that doesn't change the fact that it is.

Actually, we won't take it up with the infallible author. We will however criticize your fallible interpretation when it contradicts actual scientific reality.

 

[Ursie]

Because we typically don't like children learning falsehoods in the science classroom?

Precisely why I don't want the theory, or hypothosis or whatever you'd like to label the idea of evolution taught as a fact in school.

 

[Cabal]

You make heavy assumptions. So what, no one who did not grow up believing in creation would ever become a creationist later in life? Come on, be realistic. People's philosophies change with time quite often. Who knows, next week you might become a creationist yourself! (horror of horrors!)

Well, maybe not never, but the conversion rate one way far outdoes the other.

Thaum, I do like debate, but I find it frustrating when insults become the name of the game. For all the people on the post claiming that I'm trying to be a martyr, they are missing the point. The point is that children on the playground hurl insults because they can't think of anything better to say or have no ability to prove their point. That is what is happening here, as far as I can tell. You can call me a martyr all you want, I have no desire to be one. I simply want to ask honest questions and get understandable answers.

See, it's not because the point can't be proven, it's because you threw up your hands and didn't bother trying to debate further, and then when people called you on it, you then played the victim card.

I believe there are a thousand loophole in your so called 'fact' of evolution but none of you will admit that there are any.

Hmmm, yeah, funny that, maybe it's because we don't consider that they are loopholes for one thing?

You can "believe" what you like, doesn't mean it's correct.

You think if you sew up one hole that the rest of them will all disappear into nothingness. You are misguided.

You first need to demonstrate these thousand loopholes and establish that they are loopholes before you can make this kind of statement.

And yes, I can make a judgement based on what I have learned from the bible about a true seeker of God. I know that Jesus said that His sheep will hear his voice, but many who claim to be His sheep do not.That means they are not His sheep. Or John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If you don't like it, take it up with Scripture, I am not the Author, simply repeating what is in Scripture. There is a great deal more in Scripture about this topic, but I will not share it unless someone asks honestly for me to supply it. You don't have to accept this as truth, but that doesn't change the fact that it is.

That most definitely works both ways, ironically.

 

[Cabal]

Precisely why I don't want the theory, or hypothosis or whatever you'd like to label the idea of evolution taught as a fact in school.

Which it is.

And if you want to have in any way a meaningful discussion on WHY, you're going to have to knuckle down and learn the science or at least discuss it with people who do rather than instantly dismiss anything you don't agree with.

 

[laconicstudent]

Precisely why I don't want the theory, or hypothosis or whatever you'd like to label the idea of evolution taught as a fact in school.

Except that Evolution actually has supporting evidence. We see it happen. You seem to be under the impression that Creationism and Evolution are qualititatively equal. They are about as equal as a Viking longship in combat with a U.S. Navy battleship.

Creationism died a long time ago.

 

[Ursie]

You have yet to actually point out any without having to resort to straw men, red herrings. You think a hole exists where there isn't one. Again, you simply do not understand this because your education did not go into enough depth in the sciences for you to see this.

You won't accept the evidence of those who are educated in the field either. You like to sound all high and mighty about education and how no one who is a creationist is educated. Excuse me, but that is so much rubbish. There are plenty of PhD's in the field on the websites previously mentioned as well as others. But you won't listen to them because you don't like what they have to say.

You seem to believe that if the majority believes something then it must be true. If that is the case, then slavery should never have been outlawed, Hitler's Nazi Germany was a great idea and many more things are perfectly great ideas because everyone agrees. Back in the day, the majority believed in Creation.

 

[laconicstudent]

You won't accept the evidence of those who are educated in the field either.

You haven't cited any.

You like to sound all high and mighty about education and how no one who is a creationist is educated.

Ok, thats nice. I never actually said that. I just inferred from the fact that your postings indicated a lack of understanding of the field that you weren't educated in science. You haven't denied it.

Excuse me, but that is so much rubbish. There are plenty of PhD's in the field on the websites previously mentioned as well as others. But you won't listen to them because you don't like what they have to say.

There are fringe lunatics in every field. The fact that they don't do research, and are outnumbered 1,000 to 1 by their peers should be indicative of something.

You seem to believe that if the majority believes something then it must be true. If that is the case, then slavery should never have been outlawed, Hitler's Nazi Germany was a great idea and many more things are perfectly great ideas because everyone agrees. Back in the day, the majority believed in Creation.

I never said that. But I will believe what is supported by the majority of evidence. You'll notice that the majority believed in Creationism..... until more data came along.

 

[Ursie]

I was just kidding, Ursie; honest I was.

I must have missed something. But in any case, I wasn't offended by you AV.

 

[Cabal]

You won't accept the evidence of those who are educated in the field either. You like to sound all high and mighty about education and how no one who is a creationist is educated. Excuse me, but that is so much rubbish. There are plenty of PhD's in the field on the websites previously mentioned as well as others. But you won't listen to them because you don't like what they have to say.

Why are you giving him a hard time over this? You admitted yourself you didn't have the scientific knowledge to comment on this, so why are you getting upset over someone essentially repeating that here?

You seem to believe that if the majority believes something then it must be true. If that is the case, then slavery should never have been outlawed, Hitler's Nazi Germany was a great idea and many more things are perfectly great ideas because everyone agrees.

No, just because the majority believes something doesn't mean it's necessarily true. The corollary of this is something being a majority belief isn't enough to call it into the question the way you are unsubtly doing here.

Back in the day, the majority believed in Creation.

Back in the day, there was no alternative.

And did you know many of the groundbreaking taxonomists and geologists who showed creationism to be false were originally creationists?