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Evolution False? Absolute proof inside.

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46AND2

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I understand the concept. The specific quote in context here is not an example of a quote mine. It really doesn't change the jist of what was said. (Nor the gist, if you prefer)

What quote are you talking about? The Gould quote? I wasn't even addressing that, but I could...

Yes, it was a quote mine. Punctuations (the topic of his discussion) happen at the species level, but since the fossil record is incomplete, we have very little, if any, transitions AT THE SPECIES LEVEL.

Creationists have used his comments to say that he claimed there are no transitions AT ALL. Which is clearly not the case. We have an abundance of transitions between groups at higher levels (family, order, etc.)

If you don't see the distinction, then you don't understand the position. It really is quite clear that Gould's comments were misrepresented.

You have a rich treasure trove of hilarity by responding directly to the OP. If anyone has done that, I missed it.

I have no idea what you mean by this.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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I am surprised you didn't say quote mine!

quote mines don't exist and are a fabrication of the classic "misquote or quote out of context."

I wonder what color the sky is in Creationistopia.

{snip lengthy attempt to excuse quote mining and more attacks on Gould who cannot respond from the dead}

What does any of that have to do with the fact that the Julian Huxley quote is fabricated from aether and the citation for the other quote is some unnamed professor at some unnamed university?

Why do Creationists have such a hard time remembering what they themselves are talking about? :scratch:
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Why is it, the people that have the most knowledge regarding these matters, are the most comfortable with the theory and the people who know least about it, are not comfortable?

Is it a giant conspiracy, driven by the PHD biologists?
Why is it that there are people who in the process of acquiring their PhD in micro biology, convert to Christianity from atheism? IOW, your postulation here doesn't hold, even though the general trend is observable and to an extent you do have a point. Namely, that a lot of the resistance is just flak due to ignorance.

I like how you use "people" when I suspect you're referring to "a person", but that aside, bhsmte never once mentioned atheism or Christianity so your response is a non-sequitur.

The fact remains that those most familiar with evolution tend to be the most comfortable with it, while those who are most agitated by it tend to be the most ignorant of it.

eta - he beat me to the point:
What does being a Christian have to do with whether a biologist agrees strongly with the TOE?

I don't see the relation. Science is science, whether someone is a believer or not, like a guy like Francis Collins, who is a devout Christian and former head of the human genome project. He states, the evidence to support Darwin's theory is so strong, doing biology without evolution, is like doing physics without math.
 
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lasthero

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I like how you use "people" when I suspect you're referring to "a person"

Weasel_words.svg
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by beck12
Ehh alot of things, so I recommend watch it later when you have time, or watch it in the background. :p
Just pick one or two things the guy said that you find compelling, and we can discuss that.
Ehh,
Okay, so he says carbon dating and many other ways proves a young earth, the carbon dating way is, that after so many years the carbon splits in half, so if a dinasour bone was found it could not have any carbon if it was billions of years old, sense all of the carbon would be gone from splitting in half, sense it splits in half after a few years, so therefor, it can not be that old, because scientists find carbon inside disasour bones, around as big as a finger nail, which if it was that old, would be litterly impossible.

Shall we go in debate of this one? theres many other ones too.
such as evidence of the flood, sea shells on mount everest found in the 1950's.
Did he present a dinosaur bone with carbon in it? Because I'm not aware of any dinosaur bones with carbon in them.

Edit: Come to think of it, I'm not aware of any dinosaur bones that anyone claimed were BILLIONS of years old.

One More Edit: Also, that wouldn't be evidence against evolution, it would be evidence against an old earth. Which isn't quite the same thing.

How is that evidence of a global flood?
Scientists use carbon dating to find out if somethings billions of years old.
and that proves the flood, because how could seashells get on top of the mountain and so called turn in to fossils? which only takes around 4000 or so years to do so, in all truth, but scientists say it takes much longer, but it does not, so back to the question, how could sea shells get 25,000 feet above sea level?
No.

They use radiometric dating. Carbon dating can't be used to age anything beyond 20,000 years or so, I think. But it's not the only dating method we have.

Well, it's not 'so called' fossil, they are fossils. And it's quite simple. The mountain we see were always mountains. A long time ago, some of them were quite lower and in a marine environment. Organisms die. They fossil.

When the mountains rise, they bring the fossils with them.
Hmmm, that makes sense. Though there are other theories:

http://www.christianforums.com/t4203064/

Originally Posted by TasManOfGod
mmm lets see on the one hand we have evidence of a flood with fish and shell fossils all over the earths surface including the high mountains.
On the other hand we have the proposition of mountains forming right in the middle of a continent pushing themselves 9000 feet in the air, all the while preserving shells and sea creatures exposed to sunlight for hundreds of millions of years while they fossilised.
mmmm now what shall I believe???
Originally Posted by BandyOne
The seashells were not sitting on top of the mountain they were part of the rocks, how did they get in the rocks?
This is why we cannot understand the Creationists, they will not question anything and they will not answer anything, they don't have the answers so they mumble rubbish and convince themselves they have answered.

Originally Posted by Mocca
The great cataclysm shot the shells into the air with such force that when the shells landed on the tips of the highest mountains the shells smashed into the rocks so hard that they became part of the rock. Fully intact. Wondering how this is possible?

Well, when the shells hit the rocks, a normal impact didn't occur. What happened was a Biblical Falling Impact™! Guided by God.

Yup.

.
 
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Strathos

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I am surprised you didn't say quote mine!

quote mines don't exist and are a fabrication of the classic "misquote or quote out of context."

misquotes are often easy to prove, but you haven't with your above.

quoting out of context on the other hand is much harder to prove. Let me illustrate.

Say someone talks about oranges for 10 minutes and at the five minute mark speaks on bananas for 15 seconds. Now if you quote the banana section, you have quote mined according to the definition because it was out of context of oranges. But this is very very hard to prove. The fact that the internet is full of these allegations of mining, shows that they are fabrications. Yours is case and point, it proves nothing about the grandfather of Julian huxley (read about half).

let me quote again from Wikipedia on the fallacy of quoting out of context (quote mining)

"Both Answers in Genesis (AiG) and Henry M. Morris (founder of ICR) have been accused of producing books of mined quotes. TalkOrigins Archive (TOA) states that "entire books of these quotes have been published" and lists prominent creationist Henry M. Morris' That Their Words May Be Used Against Them and The Revised Quote Book as examples, in addition to a number of online creationist lists of quote-mines.[19] Both AiG and ICR use the following quote from Stephen Jay Gould on intermediate forms.[20]

The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change. All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt.
— Stephen Jay Gould[20][21]
[non-primary source needed]

Context shows that Gould rejected the gradualists' explanation for the lack of support for gradual change in favor of his own interpretation. He continues:

... Gradualists usually extract themselves from this dilemma by invoking the extreme imperfection of the fossil record. Although I reject this argument (for reasons discussed in ["The Episodic Nature of Evolutionary Change"]), let us grant the traditional escape and ask a different question.[21]

Knowing that creationists are quoting him as if he were saying there were no transitional forms, Gould responded:

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists -- whether through design or stupidity, I do not know -- as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.[22]"


but gould did say those things, it wasn't a misquote or a quote out of context. He said that some evolutionists wiggle out of that observation, but that he in fact disagreed. I like how after all of this gould then states his opinion. "there are transitions". After saying there wasnt'! I like How he speaks out of both sides of his mouth, at least the prior was a fact. and we all recongnize it as such. There are no transitions yet today. So it's not a misquote or out of context. He simply spoke on oranges, then on bananas, and then on oranges. But we caught him in the act of doubt! If it was a mistake He should be inclined to retract it and not maintain that dishonest sentence.

I am... very very... full of... stupidity

No such thing as a quote mine, huh?

(No offense intended, just demonstrating the concept).
 
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TasManOfGod

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Why is it, the people that have the most knowledge regarding these matters, are the most comfortable with the theory and the people who know least about it, are not comfortable?

Is it a giant conspiracy, driven by the PHD biologists?
Exactly. It is a conspiracy that keeps them in a job.
 
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46AND2

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Clearly you don't. Everyone is off on a tangent that has no bearing on the OP, and yet attempts to make a point that is of no consequence. If you instead addressed the OP, you would have a rich treasure trove of hilarity, AND be able to make points that are substantive.

I watched the video, replied to several points, marked by timestamps, and got zero responses to that post.

Not my fault other people can't stay on topic. But, I choose to make the best of it, and enjoy the tangential conversations.

As for making points that are substantive; there is not going to be much of that discussing a video that is full of PRATTs, anyway.
 
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theophilus777

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I watched the video, replied to several points, marked by timestamps

Well good on you but isn't that against the rules? ^_^

and got zero responses to that post.

Ok now I have to wonder about this forum (as I have attempted to indicate via the "my mood" part of my presence here) If nobody cares about a topic, why is it active instead of dying a dignified death? Almost seems as if warring factions are itching for a fight?

Not my fault other people can't stay on topic. But, I choose to make the best of it, and enjoy the tangential conversations.

As for making points that are substantive; there is not going to be much of that discussing a video that is full of PRATTs, anyway.

I look hoping to find good info, and stay for the humor
 
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AV1611VET

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I wonder what color the sky is in Creationistopia.
I don't know.

The sun may have been red at the time of the Creation.

But for the record, I believe you guys think it is depicted as a copper or brass color?
 
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createdtoworship

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No such thing as a quote mine, huh?

(No offense intended, just demonstrating the concept).

that would be both a misquote and a quote out of context, but nonetheless a quote mine it is not.

the etymology of the words "quote mine" are such that they exist in forums, online etc. but truly don't exist in the real world. They were birthed on the internet, and debating Creationists. Look it up. I simply refuse to adopt a term that is so redundant when we have "quoting out of context" and "misquoting" already coined.
 
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createdtoworship

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The Bible teaches that:

"There is no God."

Quite a few times, actually.

Still think there is no such thing as a quote mine?

your quote is a misquote if your quoting psalm 14:1, psalm 53:1. Because thats not the whole verse.

below as you can see is also a verse that indicates the words "there is no God" but again this is a misquote as the whole verse indicates context of a God.

1 Kings 8:23
and he said: “Lord God of Israel, there is no God in heaven above or on earth below like You, who keep Your covenant and mercy with Your servants who walk before You with all their hearts.

2ndly it could be a quote out of context. Though harder to prove that. Because it is difficult to not beg the question as to what the context truly is, as it relates to skeptical inquiry.

but note I still do not believe in the evolutionists coinage of the phrase "quote mine" when the above answers your allegations quite succinctly.
 
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createdtoworship

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No, you just don't understand the context. Nevertheless, transitional fossils are not necessary to demonstrate evolution. Explain the fossil record without evolution. How did they get where they are without evolution?

so because I don't understand the context, it's not false? When he specifically states "no transitions exist" then states that "they do."

I would beg to differ.
 
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bhsmte

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Well good on you but isn't that against the rules? ^_^



Ok now I have to wonder about this forum (as I have attempted to indicate via the "my mood" part of my presence here) If nobody cares about a topic, why is it active instead of dying a dignified death? Almost seems as if warring factions are itching for a fight?



I look hoping to find good info, and stay for the humor

Oh, there is plenty of humor and entertainment on CF.
 
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Strathos

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that would be both a misquote and a quote out of context, but nonetheless a quote mine it is not.

the etymology of the words "quote mine" are such that they exist in forums, online etc. but truly don't exist in the real world. They were birthed on the internet, and debating Creationists. Look it up. I simply refuse to adopt a term that is so redundant when we have "quoting out of context" and "misquoting" already coined.

It means "quoting out of context with a deliberate intention to deceive".
 
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