Evolution Experiment: Creationists, Choose their Fate!

[PsychoSarah]

Will no creationists participate in this?

 

[Motherofkittens]

Wow, Sarah (I didn't know if I should use your full username or not. I have seen other members just writing it as "Sarah" and I thought maybe that was because you had mentioned you prefer that in a thread I hadn't seen, so I chose to go with that. But of course they could have just shortened it for faster writing. Just tell me what you like better, if you have a preference. )that is quite some dedication you have. Many salutes. Even if no creationist takes up your offer ( but I really hope they do. I think knowing reality is very important) I will go on this wonderful experiment with you and I appreciate you doing this.

I am not a creationist, but if my vote counts, and the voting is still open, I go for 1. more color and 2. longer tail. Because it is pretty. Oh, so pretty.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Wow, Sarah (I didn't know if I should use your full username or not. I have seen other members just writing it as "Sarah" and I thought maybe that was because you had mentioned you prefer that in a thread I hadn't seen, so I chose to go with that. But of course they could have just shortened it for faster writing. Just tell me what you like better, if you have a preference. )that is quite some dedication you have. Many salutes. Even if no creationist takes up your offer ( but I really hope they do. I think knowing reality is very important) I will go on this wonderful experiment with you and I appreciate you doing this.

I am not a creationist, but if my vote counts, and the voting is still open, I go for 1. more color and 2. longer tail. Because it is pretty. Oh, so pretty.

Yeah, I'll let your vote count if no creationists go for it. Also, using Sarah is perfectly fine, though I have no preference for it over my full username. That is, I don't care if people refer to me as Sarah, PsychoSarah, or even Psycho. They all work fine.

You know what? On second thought, I'll open this up to anyone that wants to participate, be they a creationist or an evolution supporter.

 

[Tanj]

Trait 1: Rise up and overthrow their tyrannical eugenical overlord.
Trait 2: Refuse to eat carrots.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Trait 1: Rise up and overthrow their tyrannical eugenical overlord.
Trait 2: Refuse to eat carrots.

Ha, but neither of those were traits that were options. Trait 2 would be very difficult to select for, because Triops are bottom feeders that'll eat just about anything (including each other if food is scarce). Plus, it is really convenient that they'll eat so many different things, so I have no desire to select for that.

A more realistic thing to alter the environment with that I also won't do is salt; that is, I won't gradually put salt into their environment until some generation down the line requires sea water to live. It's not that I couldn't, it's that saltwater tanks are much harder to maintain than freshwater tanks. Especially considering the fact that Triops tanks don't actually need filters.

 

[Motherofkittens]

Yay, my vote matters! Is anyone gonna vote though?

 

[Astrophile]

Are you a creationist? Are you skeptical of the theory of evolution? Do you think it has never been observed and all the experiments and observations are either interpreted incorrectly or are the product of a global conspiracy? Well, now's your chance to be involved in an evolution experiment yourself!

The experimental subjects are Triops, little crustaceans that have generation times of less than a month.

"But Sarah, I don't want to take care of any gross looking vermin". No worries, I'm going to take care of these guys for you.

"But Sarah, I actually do want some Triops and to do the experiment directly with my own hands". No problem, Triops are very easy to care for, and the great part about experiments is that they are repeatable. So, as long as you do what I do, you'll get results!

"So Sarah, exactly how are we involved in the experiment?" An excellent question. What you'll be doing is acting as "natural selection". You decide what traits should "improve survival", and which ones won't. This will be determined by vote: make a post with the 2 traits you want our experimental population to develop, and I'll change the conditions to those which would result in that trait being favored gradually enough that we don't just kill off the whole population.

Here are the traits you can select, and be sure not to pick contradictory ones!
Longer tails
Shorter tails
Wide bodies
Narrow bodies
More color
Less color

"But Sarah, they'll still be Triops, and that's not evolution". I'm not going to argue about what evolution is with anyone in this particular thread; however, this experiment will continue until the experimental population and the control population are recognizably distinct from each other, or when the control population and the experimental population can no longer interbreed. "How long do you think that'd take, Sarah?" Years; I'm prepared to continue this experiment for a decade, posting the current progress every month on this site. This is probably going to be an aspect of my master's thesis.

"Sarah, are any Triops going to be killed because they don't have the traits we asked for?" Nope, the ones that don't exhibit the traits are put into a third tank. They can't be put into the control tank, though, because that'd likely skew the gene pool of that population to favor the opposite qualities of the experimental tank, which would make the results in the experimental tank seem more drastic than they really were. However, in case the control tank does have some genetic anomalies, I am going to carefully measure members of the first 2 generations to make sure the original average bodies are recorded.

So, any creationists want to have some fun with evolution?

I'm not a creationist, but I'll pick more colour and longer tails. Since I'm nearly 70, I don't know whether I shall be still alive in ten years to see the results, but it sounds an interesting experiment.

By the way, are Triops related to trilobites?

 

[Motherofkittens]

I'm not a creationist, but I'll pick more colour and longer tails. Since I'm nearly 70, I don't know whether I shall be still alive in ten years to see the results, but it sounds an interesting experiment.

By the way, are Triops related to trilobites?

I picked both those traits too! Great minds...

When is this gonna start? And where are the creationists?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm not a creationist, but I'll pick more colour and longer tails. Since I'm nearly 70, I don't know whether I shall be still alive in ten years to see the results, but it sounds an interesting experiment.

By the way, are Triops related to trilobites?

Triops are distant relatives to trilobites; they actually are more closely related to water fleas (which happen to be a favorite food). They aren't closely related to horseshoe crabs either, they merely physically resemble them. A case of ancient convergent evolution.

It is interesting to note that among Triops are some of the oldest living species; for example, Triops cancriformis has been around for at least 200 million years.

Don't worry good sir, there will be plenty to see before an entire decade has passed; after all, I'll be updating this site with pictures of each successive generation in the experiment. Although, I might have to do an external link to it, since I am going to be using this experiment as part of a college research project.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I picked both those traits too! Great minds...

When is this gonna start? And where are the creationists?

Don't know where the creationists are, but the tentative date for the start of the experiment is January 1 of 2018. I'm kicking off the new year with this one. And no complaints on that, I have to make 3 tanks have mature, pond like water, acquire some marimo balls, get some eggs, and get three 50 watt tank heaters. Good thing I already have some suitable sand thanks to it being a growing media for some of the carnivorous plants I cultivate, and they can share lights with my plants.

Uh, not to scare away any people that might have considered raising a couple Triops as pets. I only need this sort of set up due to the long term experiment, the large populations of critters, and the fact that I'm not waiting for the correct season to occur before each new generation hatches.

 

[Occams Barber]

Don't know where the creationists are, but the tentative date for the start of the experiment is January 1 of 2018. I'm kicking off the new year with this one. And no complaints on that, I have to make 3 tanks have mature, pond like water, acquire some marimo balls, get some eggs, and get three 50 watt tank heaters. Good thing I already have some suitable sand thanks to it being a growing media for some of the carnivorous plants I cultivate, and they can share lights with my plants.

Uh, not to scare away any people that might have considered raising a couple Triops as pets. I only need this sort of set up due to the long term experiment, the large populations of critters, and the fact that I'm not waiting for the correct season to occur before each new generation hatches.

Hi Sara

I think this is a really interesting project. Pity our creationist friends are unwilling to participate.

I vote for a longer tail and wider body.

I have an ulterior motive. Given the family resemblance, I'm hoping we can push Triops evolution in this direction:

You might need a bigger tank.
OB

 

[Ophiolite]

Will no creationists participate in this?

Unfortunately they believe, from their perspective, that the experiment is doomed from the start. Even if your descendants or designated heirs were to take over the experiment the creationists would say in one thousand years time, "but they are still Triops. None of them have turned into a fish, or a dog. That's adaptation, not evolution."

Still, it's a great experiment and I applaud you for the effort.

I'll vote for Shorter Tails; Wider Bodies; More Colour.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Unfortunately they believe, from their perspective, that the experiment is doomed from the start. Even if your descendants or designated heirs were to take over the experiment the creationists would say in one thousand years time, "but they are still Triops. None of them have turned into a fish, or a dog. That's adaptation, not evolution."

Still, it's a great experiment and I applaud you for the effort.

I'll vote for Shorter Tails; Wider Bodies; More Colour.

you're only supposed to pick 2, so I'll count that as voting for shorter tails and wider bodies.

Also, for any creationist that claims "adaptation, not evolution", that straight up tells me you don't know what adaptation refers to. Adaptation is any alteration in the structure or function of an organism or any of its parts that results from natural selection and by which the organism becomes better fitted to survive and multiply in its environment. That is, adaptation is part of evolution; an indicator that evolution has occurred.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Due to researching the care needs of various Triops species, I have decided that the species that will take part in this experiment is Triops cancriformis. It's the most widely available species that tolerates cooler temperatures (18-22 degrees Celsius, which is about 65-72 degrees Fahrenheit). They are at the slower growing end of the Triops spectrum, but this way, I won't need to get any tank heaters.

 

[Ophiolite]

you're only supposed to pick 2, so I'll count that as voting for shorter tails and wider bodies.

I'm Scottish. I'm always looking for more (for free)!

Also, for any creationist that claims "adaptation, not evolution", that straight up tells me you don't know what adaptation refers to. Adaptation is any alteration in the structure or function of an organism or any of its parts that results from natural selection and by which the organism becomes better fitted to survive and multiply in its environment. That is, adaptation is part of evolution; an indicator that evolution has occurred.

When have you ever known YECs to be swayed by facts?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm Scottish. I'm always looking for more (for free)!

Must be a reference to a stereotype I am not aware of.

When have you ever known YECs to be swayed by facts?

Over the course of me being on this site, I recall being able to make YECs entirely question their position at least twice via evidence. Not exactly many, considering I have been a member for over 4 years, but it does happen.

Plus, I've been shown to be wrong on a few aspects of my position as well, with the most recent example being about how I thought Origin of Species was on the Nazi book burning list. It's actually not, a debate with a creationist prompted me to look up the list. I have a personal policy against my intrinsic stubbornness; if I or someone else presents a reliable source that sufficiently provides evidence against an idea I hold, or if something I have not personally fact checked is questioned, I will investigate on my own and admit fault when necessary. I gain nothing from denying the truth.

 

[pshun2404]

Are you a creationist? Are you skeptical of the theory of evolution? Do you think it has never been observed and all the experiments and observations are either interpreted incorrectly or are the product of a global conspiracy? Well, now's your chance to be involved in an evolution experiment yourself!

The experimental subjects are Triops, little crustaceans that have generation times of less than a month.

"But Sarah, I don't want to take care of any gross looking vermin". No worries, I'm going to take care of these guys for you.

"But Sarah, I actually do want some Triops and to do the experiment directly with my own hands". No problem, Triops are very easy to care for, and the great part about experiments is that they are repeatable. So, as long as you do what I do, you'll get results!

"So Sarah, exactly how are we involved in the experiment?" An excellent question. What you'll be doing is acting as "natural selection". You decide what traits should "improve survival", and which ones won't. This will be determined by vote: make a post with the 2 traits you want our experimental population to develop, and I'll change the conditions to those which would result in that trait being favored gradually enough that we don't just kill off the whole population.

Here are the traits you can select, and be sure not to pick contradictory ones!
Longer tails
Shorter tails
Wide bodies
Narrow bodies
More color
Less color

"But Sarah, they'll still be Triops, and that's not evolution". I'm not going to argue about what evolution is with anyone in this particular thread; however, this experiment will continue until the experimental population and the control population are recognizably distinct from each other, or when the control population and the experimental population can no longer interbreed. "How long do you think that'd take, Sarah?" Years; I'm prepared to continue this experiment for a decade, posting the current progress every month on this site. This is probably going to be an aspect of my master's thesis.

"Sarah, are any Triops going to be killed because they don't have the traits we asked for?" Nope, the ones that don't exhibit the traits are put into a third tank. They can't be put into the control tank, though, because that'd likely skew the gene pool of that population to favor the opposite qualities of the experimental tank, which would make the results in the experimental tank seem more drastic than they really were. However, in case the control tank does have some genetic anomalies, I am going to carefully measure members of the first 2 generations to make sure the original average bodies are recorded.

So, any creationists want to have some fun with evolution?

a) all you are describing is the production of variety of the same creature and
b) this is a bad choice to demonstrate evolution because...Triops in over 300 million years is still Triops (it never became something new).

 

[pitabread]

Triops in over 300 million years is still Triops (it never became something new).

*sigh*

 

[PsychoSarah]

a) all you are describing is the production of variety of the same creature and
b) this is a bad choice to demonstrate evolution because...Triops in over 300 million years is still Triops (it never became something new).

What did I say? No addressing complaints or criticisms from non-participants before the experiment starts. Pick 2 traits or hold your typing fingers until the experiment has started.

 

[Ophiolite]

Must be a reference to a stereotype I am not aware of.

Scots are said to be mean, looking to pay as little as possible ofr anything - preferably nothing. This of course, is false. It arose because we pretended to be mean to avoid having to buy a round.

Over the course of me being on this site, I recall being able to make YECs entirely question their position at least twice via evidence. Not exactly many, considering I have been a member for over 4 years, but it does happen.

I have had a couple of complete "conversions" on other forums in a ten year period. I aim my arguments more at the lurker than the active participant. Who knows how many of those, if any, have been influenced.