Evolution Experiment: Creationists, Choose their Fate!

[PsychoSarah]

It wasn't saltwater, but the only thing she tersted was PH. (Oh I know what I'm doing...) she bought the whole schebang at once and come home with it and put the fish in it within a couple hours, lol. Just dumped 'em in...



It's a 50 gal tank.



I'm going down there soon to get the rest of my stuff. I'm going to ask about it.

I'm curious, how did it go with that tank?

 

[Divide]

I'm curious, how did it go with that tank?

The tank? The tank setup is fine. I think everything's still there. In fact I think there's a pocostamus in it. I haven't been there yet to see.

 

[Jimmy D]

Pfft, so help me if people accuse me of airbrushing, I'll send them some eggs to hatch if they think I am enhancing the color. Funnily enough, the pictures taken by my garbage camera have their color somewhat muted, so the images are going to err in the less colorful direction.

Purple and black would be less likely, because the Triops don't produce any purple or black pigments, in the case of the species I am using for "attempting to hatch, take two". Red is a color mutation that has appeared in at least 2 different species before, so there is a decent chance that the mutation that causes it is rather simple and on a shared gene between all members of the genus. Same goes with green, albeit with just a specific population of a different species. Triops do produce a blue pigment... in their muscles, so it is possible for a mutation to cause that to be expressed in their exoskeletons.

Basically, purple would be an entirely new color for which there isn't any precedent in this species of Triops, so the presence of this color would have to be caused by a unique mutation, and black contrasts the most with the color they start out as.


I don't blame you on that; while Triops aren't demanding to take care of, they must be fed at least 3 times a day to avoid a notable risk of cannibalism. Unless you use Triops cancriformis, like I tried to do originally (eggs wouldn't hatch). I really wish those eggs had hatched, because using a gendered species makes me very stressed about their potential to eat each other.


I will do that later; unfortunately for me, two of the tanks I bought have bad seals and leak, so I have to fix them. However, this image is representative of a bare-bones Triops tank (no filter, no heater) https://fotoalbum.dds.nl/vagevuur/aquarium/medium/IMG_2858.JPG . If one keeps it under 70 degrees in their house at any point, they should use a heater, because I found out the hard way that Triops eggs, even of the most cold tolerant species easily available, will not hatch at 65 degrees. That's 21 and 18 degrees Celsius, respectively. I'm going to be using distilled water, even though adults can tolerate tap water that's treated to remove the chlorine and other stuff they don't like, since that's actually cheaper than treating the water is and babies won't hatch in tap water with as high of a ppm as I have. I use baking soda to control the pH (distilled water is acidic), and you can buy pH strips at any pet store. As long as the pH is greater than 6 and less than 10, it's all good (though, they prefer it if it is 7-9). A ridiculously generous range for an aquatic organism.

My tanks will look more like this, since I decided to have heaters and filters, and I am not huge on decorations for the tank (aside from a marimo or two) http://i.imgur.com/AFGEbKQ.jpg . For organisms like this, I highly recommend double sponge filters like the one in the picture. It's the same as the one I am going to use, and the benefit of having two sponges is that you can clean one at a time to prevent the tank from cycling again, and they're fairly cheap.


I hope I get to watch evolution in action, I suppose. Though, I would be fine with there being absolutely no change in the Triops. The purpose was more to design an evolution experiment anyone could do which didn't involve bacteria than to want a specific outcome. No high-end, expensive equipment. No high maintenance organisms. No waiting a lifetime for results, and no need for a huge amount of space. Would it be awesome to have three 100 gallon tanks dedicated to this, and would it make for better results? Absolutely, but who has the time and money to throw around for that? I certainly don't. Heck, I'll lay out the costs of all the stuff I got right now, in USD:
eggs: $5-20, depends on species and number of eggs. $5 will get you 50 eggs of the most common species. I spent about $13 for 150 Triops granarius eggs, which also included enough food for 2 months. Do note that only 1/4 Triops eggs usually hatch, so it's a bad idea to just buy 10 eggs, which is what the kits for kids usually come with.
tanks: about $36 for three 10 gallon tanks. If I went through yard sales, I'd probably find bigger ones cheaper, because the resale value of tanks is garbage.
filter: $10 for the filter parts, about $20 for the air pumps and tubes needed to get the filters to work (DX argggh, why aren't they sold together?!)
50 watt tank heaters: $21 for three adjustable ones with a range of 65-88 degrees F, 18-31 degrees C.
sand: $15 for enough to last years, possibly the duration of the experiment.

So, that makes my personal total about $115 for the whole set up, but I am going above and beyond. Considering that heaters aren't inherently necessary for everyone to get the eggs to hatch, and considering that filters are never an absolute necessity, it could have been as low as $64. That, and plenty of people probably have some leftover tank stuff from pets they've had before.


I have no idea why they don't want to vote for traits. Yes, 10 years is a long time, I doubt most of them will still be active by the time the experiment is completed, but based on some basic math, it's likely that the experimental population will be noticeably different from the control group in less than 2 years. That's a pretty short amount of time for an evolution experiment, honestly. Especially for a multicellular organism; most of those span multiple decades and are indefinitely ongoing.

This reminds me of the time I tried to keep German Blue rams which are very sensitive to water conditions, I even bought a reverse osmosis filter to get the PPM down - they still died. So I got some tetras.....

Have you considered buying RO water from your local pet store? It's quite cheap, as are PPM meters. I'd definately recommend testing it.

It sounds like you know about cycling your tank, have you tried "seeding" your filter media with bacteria from an established one, that tends to speed up the process I find, but as long as your initial animal stock is fairly low and you're doing plenty of water changes I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Anyway, I digress, good luck with your experiment, and no, I don't want any filthy triops in my lovely tank!

 

[Jimmy D]

Forgot to say, if you can collect clean rainwater I'd definately recommend using that. (For fish anyway, I don't really know what conditions triops prefer).

And for Pete's sake chuck a couple of nice rocks in there, have you scientists got no sense of aesthetics!

(My old set up)

 

[PsychoSarah]

Pfft, this is an experiment, not a decoration. Besides, Triops like open, unobstructed ground to bury their eggs in, and less decorations make it easier to clean the tanks. However, there is a limestone chunk in the tank, for the purposes of helping to keep the pH more basic and because it helps them develop their shells properly.

The winning traits are longer tails and more color. No one is shocked by that one. Thanks to the people that voted, though, and anyone can feel free to perform the experiment for themselves if they want to see different traits.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Trying to get some of the new eggs to hatch, wish me luck! Keeping most of them aside to be sure I don't waste them all on an ineffective hatching method.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I have hatched some Triops successfully! They are rather small, but should be a good size to take pictures of by the end of the week.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I made a critical mistake and lost all the Triops that were early to hatch. Since directions that I used assumed a small number of eggs (10) recommended using 2 liters of water, I assumed it would be proportional, and so for 150 eggs, my 10 gallon tank would be fine as long as I didn't fill it to the top (by proportion, 10 eggs in 2 liters of water would amount to 150 eggs in 30 liters of water, which is about 8 gallons). DON'T DO THAT! The tiny creatures are extremely bad at finding food, so they need the small space so they don't end up swimming in circles until they starve to death.

I only noticed the mistake after 3 days following the first hatching, as I noticed that the Triops didn't seem to be getting as big as they were supposed to be. So, I filled a clean glass jar with water from the tank, crushed up some food for them, and transferred every single one I could find in the 10 gallon tank into the jar, which contains a little over 2 liters of water. This seems to have saved them, as I now am seeing some exponential growth. This leaves the final population of the F1 generation to be... about 8. That is, 8 big ones, there are quite a few smaller ones in there, but I'm not counting on the big ones not eating them. I hope that doesn't bite me in the butt, considering that the species I am using has discrete males and females.

"Sarah, how could you possibly make this mistake? Shouldn't their fast growth rate have alerted you within a day?" No, I actually think I caught it fairly quickly. I used pond water in the tank, so there were tons of microbes for them to eat for the first day. So, they did grow bigger from hatching to part of the way through day 2. However, near the end of day 2, I began to notice that there weren't any bigger than a certain size, but I thought little of it, assuming that these largest ones were the ones that hatched first. But, on day 3, there weren't any ones bigger than that again, which tipped me off that something was wrong. I did manage to save most of them, considering I counted around 26 in the jar, and with a 1/4 egg hatch rate, that means about 40 eggs should hatch out of 150. I'm keeping them as well fed as humanly possible to reduce cannibalism, but this makes me glad the things lay over 100 eggs a day from maturity to death.

But, people, at least I have some pictures to show you, as promised:
This is the frantic mess I have made of my set up, what an ugly sight it is now, and it isn't going to get any better until the Triops are big enough for that tank.

I managed to get an okay picture of one of the larger critters as well; it's difficult to do, since they are always moving and Triops granarius happens to be the fastest species in the genus.

 

[Occams Barber]

I made a critical mistake and lost all the Triops that were early to hatch. Since directions that assumed a small number of eggs (10) recommended using 2 liters of water, I assumed it would be proportional, and so for 150 eggs, my 10 gallon tank would be fine as long as I didn't fill it to the top (by proportion, 10 eggs in 2 liters of water would amount to 150 eggs in 30 liters of water, which is about 8 gallons). DON'T DO THAT! The tiny creatures are extremely bad at finding food, so they need the small space so they don't end up swimming in circles until they starve to death.

I only noticed the mistake after 3 days following the first hatching, as I noticed that the Triops didn't seem to be getting as big as they were supposed to be. So, I filled a clean glass jar with water from the tank, crushed up some food for them, and transferred every single one I could find in the 10 gallon tank into the jar, which contains a little over 2 liters of water. This seems to have saved them, as I now am seeing some exponential growth. This leaves the final population of the F1 generation to be... about 8. That is, 8 big ones, there are quite a few smaller ones in there, but I'm not counting on the big ones not eating them. I hope that doesn't bite me in the butt, considering that the species I am using has discrete males and females.

"Sarah, how could you possibly make this mistake? Shouldn't their fast growth rate have alerted you within a day?" No, I actually think I caught it fairly quickly. I used pond water in the tank, so there were tons of microbes for them to eat for the first day. So, they did grow bigger from hatching to part of the way through day 2. However, near the end of day 2, I began to notice that there weren't any bigger than a certain size, but I thought little of it, assuming that these largest ones were the ones that hatched first. But, on day 3, there weren't any ones bigger than that again, which tipped me off that something was wrong. I did manage to save most of them, considering I counted around 26 in the jar, and with a 1/4 egg hatch rate, that means about 40 eggs should hatch out of 150. I'm keeping them as well fed as humanly possible to reduce cannibalism, but this makes me glad the things lay over 100 eggs a day from maturity to death.

But, people, at least I have some pictures to show you, as promised:
This is the frantic mess I have made of my set up, what an ugly sight it is now, and it isn't going to get any better until the Triops are big enough for that tank.

I managed to get an okay picture of one of the larger critters as well; it's difficult to do, since they are always moving and Triops granarius happens to be the fastest species in the genus.

Thanks for the update Sarah.

Keep notes - with all the dramas I can see a Disney movie coming out of this.
OB

 

[PsychoSarah]

Thanks for the update Sarah.

Keep notes - with all the dramas I can see a Disney movie coming out of this.
OB

Nah, I'm too critical for Disney:
Observation 1: I have put food in the jar for the Triops, and was greatly amused at watching them all chase after the pieces as they slowly floated down... and the Triops continued to race to the top and swim around in circles for 15 minutes looking for the food that was now at the bottom of the jar. Imbeciles.

Observation 2: The creatures never stop moving, even as they eat. Rather than grab pieces of food to eat on the move, they pass over it at top speeds, biting out a chunk as they continue to zoom around the jar. Unless it is wiggling, then they opt to try and carry their victim away as they munch. Why?

Observation 3: After days of using a turkey baster to clean up excess food, the older Triops are no longer afraid of it. On the contrary, they try to be sucked up by it to gorge themselves on the old food. Now I have to carefully scan the contents of the turkey baster, least I end up throwing the greedy fools away.

 

[Occams Barber]

Nah, I'm too critical for Disney:
Observation 1: I have put food in the jar for the Triops, and was greatly amused at watching them all chase after the pieces as they slowly floated down... and the Triops continued to race to the top and swim around in circles for 15 minutes looking for the food that was now at the bottom of the jar. Imbeciles.

Observation 2: The creatures never stop moving, even as they eat. Rather than grab pieces of food to eat on the move, they pass over it at top speeds, biting out a chunk as they continue to zoom around the jar. Unless it is wiggling, then they opt to try and carry their victim away as they munch. Why?

Observation 3: After days of using a turkey baster to clean up excess food, the older Triops are no longer afraid of it. On the contrary, they try to be sucked up by it to gorge themselves on the old food. Now I have to carefully scan the contents of the turkey baster, least I end up throwing the greedy fools away.

It would be interesting to see if any behavioural traits are passed on to Gen#2, #3 etc. For instance those Triops who are least put off by the turkey baster would presumably get a little more food thereby improving their survival rate. Perhaps the next Gen will be a race of bolder Triops or Triops who are more adept at learning (or perhaps not).
OB

 

[PsychoSarah]

It would be interesting to see if any behavioural traits are passed on to Gen#2, #3 etc. For instance those Triops who are least put off by the turkey baster would presumably get a little more food thereby improving their survival rate. Perhaps the next Gen will be a race of bolder Triops or Triops who are more adept at learning (or perhaps not).
OB

All the Triops that have been accidentally sucked a few times are doing it. Makes it a huge pain to clean up after them. I think they are just adapting their behavior to it, though, so I doubt it'd be something that passes down genetically.

 

[Occams Barber]

All the Triops that have been accidentally sucked a few times are doing it. Makes it a huge pain to clean up after them. I think they are just adapting their behavior to it, though, so I doubt it'd be something that passes down genetically.

There's a classic photo of BF Skinner being followed around by a little herd of ducklings who've imprinted on him as a pseudo Mother Duck.

Given time, and enough operant conditioning, you may well become the Mother God of the Turkey Baster to the more susceptible Triops.
OB

 

[pitabread]

Given time, and enough operant conditioning, you may well become the Mother God of the Turkey Baster to the more susceptible Triops.

Do I foresee a Sandkings-esque outcome brewing?

Sarah, if they start building tiny shrines in the image of a turkey baster, I'd start to worry.

 

[PsychoSarah]

There's a classic photo of BF Skinner being followed around by a little herd of ducklings who've imprinted on him as a pseudo Mother Duck.

Given time, and enough operant conditioning, you may well become the Mother God of the Turkey Baster to the more susceptible Triops.
OB

Ha, no, the ducks did that because they have imprinting as an instinct. They think whatever large enough living thing they first see is their mom, and follow it around. Crustaceans don't imprint. Besides, all Triops can do with their eyes is discern light from dark, so it'd be impossible for them to actually recognize me; they'd only end up associating a large shadow with the arrival of food. They also don't hear so much as sense vibrations as an extension of touch, so they probably won't recognize my voice (not that I talk to them).

 

[PsychoSarah]

Do I foresee a Sandkings-esque outcome brewing?

Sarah, if they start building tiny shrines in the image of a turkey baster, I'd start to worry.

Lol, "praise the sucky tube". In all seriousness, I don't think that they can actually see the turkey baster, because it is clear so light shines through it. They only frantically go in it if they are close enough to feel the suction somewhat, which is why it isn't entirely impossible for me to clean up after them.

 

[Occams Barber]

Ha, no, the ducks did that because they have imprinting as an instinct. They think whatever large enough living thing they first see is their mom, and follow it around. Crustaceans don't imprint. Besides, all Triops can do with their eyes is discern light from dark, so it'd be impossible for them to actually recognize me; they'd only end up associating a large shadow with the arrival of food. They also don't hear so much as sense vibrations as an extension of touch, so they probably won't recognize my voice (not that I talk to them).

I think you underestimate your own Divine Powers as the Vibrating Shadow of Plenitude.
OB

 

[PsychoSarah]

I think you underestimate your own Divine Powers as the Vibrating Shadow of Plenitude.
OB

Lol, I think you overestimate the intelligence of crustaceans so stupid that they can't easily track food that drifts downward towards them and, rather than actually search for food, swim in the same area until they die if food is never brought near them.

The most "intelligent" behavior Triops have is that if the water they live in is running low on oxygen (as temporary ponds are liable to do), they go up to the surface of the water and "catch" some air to oxygenate the water near them so that they don't suffocate. And I am 100% certain that's an instinctual thing.

 

[Occams Barber]

Lol, I think you overestimate the intelligence of crustaceans so stupid that they can't easily track food that drifts downward towards them and, rather than actually search for food, swim in the same area until they die if food is never brought near them.

The most "intelligent" behavior Triops have is that if the water they live in is running low on oxygen (as temporary ponds are liable to do), they go up to the surface of the water and "catch" some air to oxygenate the water near them so that they don't suffocate. And I am 100% certain that's an instinctual thing.

I'm not a fan of truisms but, if I were, one of my favourites would be;

"Never ruin a good story with the truth"

Somewhere in here there is a (H G) Wellsian epic.

I'll look out for your next update.
OB

 

[PsychoSarah]

I'm not a fan of truisms but, if I were, one of my favourites would be;

"Never ruin a good story with the truth"

Somewhere in here there is a (H G) Wellsian epic.

I'll look out for your next update.
OB

Because the 10 year evolution experiment being performed purely out of spite and frustration with debating creationists is a truth that doesn't make for a good story, I guess XD