Evolution Demographics

[gzt]

I think that's reading too much - I think the 11% saying humanity is ~7521 years old is more representative. And then some bleed into the "thousands to tens of thousands" camp on the age of humanity even as YEC. And I haven't yet analyzed without the 22% non-Orthodox.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Poppycock. People come into threads all the time and say "unsubscribing" or "I don't see the point" or other things. And judging from your blunt and irreverent posting style so far, I'd say you'd probably be a poster who would have NO problem doing so on one of my threads! yet you saw another opportunity to bash me, and took it. It's interesting because when I hadn't even opened the thread yet, I saw your name there as the last poster, and I KNEW you were commenting on my post. Can't resist the opportunity. Yes, you've said before it isn't personal, but I don't buy it.

Your second paragraph reveals a little something. You said, "an interesting survey." Subjective. I didn't find it to be so. And yet, of course, I don't have the right to say as much. You do.

Do I see the issue on the level of U.S. politics? No. And I never indicated as much. Giving a different example doesn't equate to an equalization.

I find the last paragraph another example of your passive-aggressive posting style. You find what I said "troubling." It was hardly grave or serious enough in the least to be "troubling." If you find that "troubling," I hate to see how you cope with the real world out there in your employment. You say you're "truly sorry," each time we have these confrontations (again, putting me on ignore or resisting the intense urge to shadow me and attack would be a great option!) you give the pseudo-apology then proceed to attack. You have been rude to me or snobby then proceed to ask me not to be sarcastic and snide. As Bill Shatner said, "irony can be pretty ironic sometimes!" :o

The best way to proceed is to put me on ignore. For the third or fourth time, I encourage you to do so. It's obvious my level of repugnance is so off-putting and painful for you to cope with, so I encourage it. Please. Thanks. We're both Orthodox (at least I think you're still Orthodox? You were considering conversion and said you never really were Orthodox in another thread, so I'm a touch confused??), so perhaps a little economia toward each other would be great, knowing we don't get along and using avoidance or just plain ole ignore or actually trying to see the good in one another might be fruitful.

\

Because I am constantly coming after you? As I have said before, Gurney, it isn't personal. I truly do find a lot of your comments worthy of critique and objection.

You can say whatever you want, but I don't think it is very kind to come into a forum just to say you think an interesting survey that GZT put time and energy into is a waste of time. I'm not telling you what to do, only criticizing what you have done. Am I not allowed to object to people's statements?

Unfortunately the issue isn't that simple. First of all I (hopefully) wouldn't leave a statement at just that. I would explain WHY I found voting to be a waste of time, which would be rooted in the important issue of how broken the US political system is. That is what would make saying US electoral voting is a waste of time worth mentioning. It leads to discussion of issues that are actually important. My question, then, is what makes taking the time to come into the forum and tell GZT his poll is a waste of time worthwhile? Do you see this issue as on the level of US politics? In my opinion, what you have done is more akin to walking up to someone's science project and telling them you won't take the time to learn about it because you think it would be a waste of time. Why not move along without saying anything?

Forgive me if I have offended you. I am not out to get you. I was truly troubled by how you approached this issue, and am more than willing to listen if you think I am in the wrong, but can we please do so without snide remarks and sarcasm?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There, I took the survey. Hope it adds to the entertainment.

 

[Columba7]

I think that's reading too much - I think the 11% saying humanity is ~7521 years old is more representative. And then some bleed into the "thousands to tens of thousands" camp on the age of humanity even as YEC. And I haven't yet analyzed without the 22% non-Orthodox.

That is a good point. It will be interesting to see how the data looks without the 22% non-Orthodox. That being said, and this is only based on my interactions with Orthodox Christians in the real world, the internet tends to bring out people on the extremes because they are the ones most interested in talking about the issue at hand.

 

[gzt]

There, I took the survey. Hope it adds to the entertainment.

Then I'll put you on the list to get ice cream. Everybody wins.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I understand gzt made this for "entertainment" purposes, but as I said earlier, it still seems a bit off and pointless. I don't say that to disparage gzt personally. It seems he did a good job setting up the survey, but the problem is that the survey doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of Truth. If we were to go back to the first Great Council and ask all the bishops, patriarchs, and priests what they thought about Arianism, and we could use Google to set up a survey, my money would be on the fact that a huge percentage of clergy would be in favor or Arianism. And after the Council, the same thing! It was a pretty hip heresy and en vogue. There was a time there where Athanasius was against the world and he would've represented that TINY fraction on the pie graph that would make his position look stupid and backwards while everyone else was in the right. However, we all know majority opinions mean very little in the grand scheme of Truth. In fact, Truth is often the minority statistic.

So, when looking at such a survey, people will take from it what they want. The pro-evolution folks will draw the conclusion, "hey! Look! The Orthodox Church is a wonderful place of diversity! I'm pro-evolution and evidently there are many others like me! Cool! It's a legitimate Orthodox opinion to be taken seriously!" Now, in truth, as jckstraw, armymatt, and rus have pointed out, you're hard-pressed to find any patriarch, major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt who is in favor of evolution. So, as an Orthodox Christian who values the Church over my own private speculations, shouldn't I disregard the survey and take seriously the Fathers, Saints, and Church position? Then there is the anti-evolution crowd. They will take this survey and see, let's say, only 15% of the folks on the survey reject evolution entirely. They'll say, "see! Cool! I'm in the minority, just like Athanasius and I don't go with the herd!"

So, statistics and Truth don't mean much, even if it is entertainment. It only reveals a diversity, a speculation, but doesn't address what the CHURCH teaches. And ultimately, that is what matters, not what a bunch of posters in a forum thing (myself included).

 

[Kristos]

I understand gzt made this for "entertainment" purposes, but as I said earlier, it still seems a bit off and pointless. I don't say that to disparage gzt personally. It seems he did a good job setting up the survey, but the problem is that the survey doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of Truth. If we were to go back to the first Great Council and ask all the bishops, patriarchs, and priests what they thought about Arianism, and we could use Google to set up a survey, my money would be on the fact that a huge percentage of clergy would be in favor or Arianism. And after the Council, the same thing! It was a pretty hip heresy and en vogue. There was a time there where Athanasius was against the world and he would've represented that TINY fraction on the pie graph that would make his position look stupid and backwards while everyone else was in the right. However, we all know majority opinions mean very little in the grand scheme of Truth. In fact, Truth is often the minority statistic.

So, when looking at such a survey, people will take from it what they want. The pro-evolution folks will draw the conclusion, "hey! Look! The Orthodox Church is a wonderful place of diversity! I'm pro-evolution and evidently there are many others like me! Cool! It's a legitimate Orthodox opinion to be taken seriously!" Now, in truth, as jckstraw, armymatt, and rus have pointed out, you're hard-pressed to find any patriarch, major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt who is in favor of evolution. So, as an Orthodox Christian who values the Church over my own private speculations, shouldn't I disregard the survey and take seriously the Fathers, Saints, and Church position? Then there is the anti-evolution crowd. They will take this survey and see, let's say, only 15% of the folks on the survey reject evolution entirely. They'll say, "see! Cool! I'm in the minority, just like Athanasius and I don't go with the herd!"

So, statistics and Truth don't mean much, even if it is entertainment. It only reveals a diversity, a speculation, but doesn't address what the CHURCH teaches. And ultimately, that is what matters, not what a bunch of posters in a forum thing (myself included).

Odd that you continue to categorized anyone who doesn't agree with YEC a "pro-evolutionist". Not only would I say that YEC does not take the Fathers, the Saints and the Church seriously - it doesn't take the concept of GOD seriously. I've already explained why, so I won't bore everyone with a threepeat.

 

[Columba7]

Odd that you continue to categorized anyone who doesn't agree with YEC a "pro-evolutionist". Not only would I say that YEC does not take the Fathers, the Saints and the Church seriously - it doesn't take the concept of GOD seriously. I've already explained why, so I won't bore everyone with a threepeat.

Resistance is futile!

 

[GregConstantine]

"Odd that you continue to categorized anyone who doesn't agree with YEC a "pro-evolutionist". Not only would I say that YEC does not take the Fathers, the Saints and the Church seriously - it doesn't take the concept of GOD seriously. I've already explained why, so I won't bore everyone with a threepeat"

brought this up numerous times too, it got ignored, as did everything else

 

[gzt]

Now, in truth, as jckstraw, armymatt, and rus have pointed out, you're hard-pressed to find any patriarch, major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt who is in favor of evolution.

Citation needed.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I've done a five-peat with my request in the evolution thread asking for a coherent narrative, so I understand the frustration!

Odd that you continue to categorized anyone who doesn't agree with YEC a "pro-evolutionist". Not only would I say that YEC does not take the Fathers, the Saints and the Church seriously - it doesn't take the concept of GOD seriously. I've already explained why, so I won't bore everyone with a threepeat.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Though it seems another snide jab, your specialty, at least I've found something I like in your posts that we can agree on---STAR TREK! Maybe we can start a Trek thread and actually have harmony with something, though I suspect you'll disagree instantly about which is better the old series or the NG, then you'll choose a different captain from me, and most likely you'll like the episode "Who Watches the Watchers?" better than any Trek episode ever (for obvious reasons! )

Resistance is futile!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Citation needed.

St Nektarios of Aegina, Elder Paisios of Mt Athos, St Nikolai of Zicca, St John Maximovitch, Fr Seraphim Rose, Elder Cleopa of Romania, Elder Ephraim of Philotheou, Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, Elder Ephraim of Katounakia, Elder Arsenios the Cave-dweller, Elder Joseph the hesychast, Fr Michael Pomazansky, Fr Seraphim Slobodskoy, to name a few.

 

[jckstraw72]

[FONT=&quot]Met. Hilarion Alfeyev, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]interview by Dmitry Didrov and Dmitry Gubin, Temporarily Open, ATV, May 1, 2009 [in Russian], qtd. in Genesis, Creation, and Early Man p. 71n.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Darwin’s theory contradicts Biblical revelation, because this theory proposes to us … that man developed from some kind of animal state by way of gradual evolution to the point that people have reached now. The Biblical picture is quite different. The Bible states that God created man perfect, and that the imperfection of today’s human life is bound up first of all with sin. [/FONT]

 

[ArmyMatt]

Odd that you continue to categorized anyone who doesn't agree with YEC a "pro-evolutionist". Not only would I say that YEC does not take the Fathers, the Saints and the Church seriously - it doesn't take the concept of GOD seriously. I've already explained why, so I won't bore everyone with a threepeat.

well, I think we are speaking in general here. rus is not a YEC, but he is not on the side of evolution. and if it is true that we don't take God or the Father's seriously, then there would be patristic quotes or quotes from Scripture that would make easy counters to the YEC argument.

 

[jckstraw72]

well, I think we are speaking in general here. rus is not a YEC, but he is not on the side of evolution. and if it is true that we don't take God or the Father's seriously, then there would be patristic quotes or quotes from Scripture that would make easy counters to the YEC argument.

the Fathers teach that God's creative act of each day was instantaneous and simultaneous - that is, for example, every land animal came into existence at precisely the same instantaneous moment. The Fathers see this as a great display of God's power, and counter that to think that God took a long time to create is to rob Him of His awesome power. St. Ephraim the Syrian even says it is IMPERMISSIBLE to interpret the days as anything other than 24 hours. No, it is not YEC who do not take God and the Saints seriously.

 

[gzt]

St Nektarios of Aegina, Elder Paisios of Mt Athos, St Nikolai of Zicca, St John Maximovitch, Fr Seraphim Rose, Elder Cleopa of Romania, Elder Ephraim of Philotheou, Elder Joseph of Vatopedi, Elder Ephraim of Katounakia, Elder Arsenios the Cave-dweller, Elder Joseph the hesychast, Fr Michael Pomazansky, Fr Seraphim Slobodskoy, to name a few.

He said that, " you're hard-pressed to find any patriarch, major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt who is in favor of evolution". This is manifestly false.

 

[Protoevangel]

He said that, " you're hard-pressed to find any patriarch, major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt who is in favor of evolution". This is manifestly false.

I guess that depends on your definition of "worth his salt".

 

[inconsequential]

Maybe we weren't created as primates but when God clothed us in animal skin, ape skin fit best?

 

[jckstraw72]

Maybe we weren't created as primates but when God clothed us in animal skin, ape skin fit best?

some people are almost that hairy!